Religious thing~~Why are you here-?

[harmonica]

there is no god
...the Pals should thank their lucky stars that the Israelis haven't pushed them into the sea
..it's the Pals who are the jackass murderers--I've been through this before on many other threads

 

[buttercup]

Matthew 10:34 - 39

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

As an Athiest/Agnostic; these are the most poignant verses of the Bible that have positively effected my life. Philosophically speaking...

I get the feeling that you’re completely misunderstanding what he’s saying. The reality is, this is a fallen world, filled with people in rebellion to God. When someone chooses to follow Jesus and becomes a true Christian, they are inevitably going to face some contempt, division, and conflict with people around them. Sometimes even with their own family members. I can attest that that’s true, because when I became a Christian, it changed my relationships with several of my family members. It put me in conflict with my dad, who was an atheist, and my mom who is Catholic.

It’s not that Jesus wants us to be at war with our friends and family… In fact the Bible says just the opposite in numerous places. But he’s talking about the reality that will inevitably happen, because when a person chooses to follow God, it puts them “in a battle” so to speak, with the people around them who either think they’ve gone off the deep end, or now feel like they are not on the same team.

Jesus, because of who he is, is divisive. He said “I am the Way, the truth, and the life… No one comes to the father except through me.” That is a very controversial and divisive statement. So those things I mentioned, and more, are why he said that he didn’t come to bring peace. He DID come to bring peace between people and God. But peace between people and other people is a different matter, even though God does want us to try to be at peace with everyone, as much as possible.

“If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.”
Romans 12:18 ​

So why did god let this be a fallen world if that's now how he wants it?

The world changed when mankind chose to do things his own way. The Bible says sin brings death. Cause and effect. But as I said on the other thread, God gave us free will because the alternative would be a world of puppets or robots, with no freedom or ability to choose their own actions. Not only would that have been immoral, but it would have been pointless. God wants us to love him and come to him on our own volition, because we choose to…not because we are puppets on a string with no choice. Would you have preferred to be a puppet with no freedom?

Why is being a robot the only option? God could have given us free will without the bad things as choices. He didn’t, why?

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

 

[Taz]

As an Athiest/Agnostic; these are the most poignant verses of the Bible that have positively effected my life. Philosophically speaking...

I get the feeling that you’re completely misunderstanding what he’s saying. The reality is, this is a fallen world, filled with people in rebellion to God. When someone chooses to follow Jesus and becomes a true Christian, they are inevitably going to face some contempt, division, and conflict with people around them. Sometimes even with their own family members. I can attest that that’s true, because when I became a Christian, it changed my relationships with several of my family members. It put me in conflict with my dad, who was an atheist, and my mom who is Catholic.

It’s not that Jesus wants us to be at war with our friends and family… In fact the Bible says just the opposite in numerous places. But he’s talking about the reality that will inevitably happen, because when a person chooses to follow God, it puts them “in a battle” so to speak, with the people around them who either think they’ve gone off the deep end, or now feel like they are not on the same team.

Jesus, because of who he is, is divisive. He said “I am the Way, the truth, and the life… No one comes to the father except through me.” That is a very controversial and divisive statement. So those things I mentioned, and more, are why he said that he didn’t come to bring peace. He DID come to bring peace between people and God. But peace between people and other people is a different matter, even though God does want us to try to be at peace with everyone, as much as possible.

“If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.”
Romans 12:18 ​

So why did god let this be a fallen world if that's now how he wants it?

The world changed when mankind chose to do things his own way. The Bible says sin brings death. Cause and effect. But as I said on the other thread, God gave us free will because the alternative would be a world of puppets or robots, with no freedom or ability to choose their own actions. Not only would that have been immoral, but it would have been pointless. God wants us to love him and come to him on our own volition, because we choose to…not because we are puppets on a string with no choice. Would you have preferred to be a puppet with no freedom?

Why is being a robot the only option? God could have given us free will without the bad things as choices. He didn’t, why?

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

 

[buttercup]

I get the feeling that you’re completely misunderstanding what he’s saying. The reality is, this is a fallen world, filled with people in rebellion to God. When someone chooses to follow Jesus and becomes a true Christian, they are inevitably going to face some contempt, division, and conflict with people around them. Sometimes even with their own family members. I can attest that that’s true, because when I became a Christian, it changed my relationships with several of my family members. It put me in conflict with my dad, who was an atheist, and my mom who is Catholic.

It’s not that Jesus wants us to be at war with our friends and family… In fact the Bible says just the opposite in numerous places. But he’s talking about the reality that will inevitably happen, because when a person chooses to follow God, it puts them “in a battle” so to speak, with the people around them who either think they’ve gone off the deep end, or now feel like they are not on the same team.

Jesus, because of who he is, is divisive. He said “I am the Way, the truth, and the life… No one comes to the father except through me.” That is a very controversial and divisive statement. So those things I mentioned, and more, are why he said that he didn’t come to bring peace. He DID come to bring peace between people and God. But peace between people and other people is a different matter, even though God does want us to try to be at peace with everyone, as much as possible.

“If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.”
Romans 12:18 ​

So why did god let this be a fallen world if that's now how he wants it?

The world changed when mankind chose to do things his own way. The Bible says sin brings death. Cause and effect. But as I said on the other thread, God gave us free will because the alternative would be a world of puppets or robots, with no freedom or ability to choose their own actions. Not only would that have been immoral, but it would have been pointless. God wants us to love him and come to him on our own volition, because we choose to…not because we are puppets on a string with no choice. Would you have preferred to be a puppet with no freedom?

Why is being a robot the only option? God could have given us free will without the bad things as choices. He didn’t, why?

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

 

[Taz]

So why did god let this be a fallen world if that's now how he wants it?

The world changed when mankind chose to do things his own way. The Bible says sin brings death. Cause and effect. But as I said on the other thread, God gave us free will because the alternative would be a world of puppets or robots, with no freedom or ability to choose their own actions. Not only would that have been immoral, but it would have been pointless. God wants us to love him and come to him on our own volition, because we choose to…not because we are puppets on a string with no choice. Would you have preferred to be a puppet with no freedom?

Why is being a robot the only option? God could have given us free will without the bad things as choices. He didn’t, why?

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

 

[buttercup]

The world changed when mankind chose to do things his own way. The Bible says sin brings death. Cause and effect. But as I said on the other thread, God gave us free will because the alternative would be a world of puppets or robots, with no freedom or ability to choose their own actions. Not only would that have been immoral, but it would have been pointless. God wants us to love him and come to him on our own volition, because we choose to…not because we are puppets on a string with no choice. Would you have preferred to be a puppet with no freedom?

Why is being a robot the only option? God could have given us free will without the bad things as choices. He didn’t, why?

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

Have you ever heard of the law of non-contradiction?

 

[Taz]

Why is being a robot the only option? God could have given us free will without the bad things as choices. He didn’t, why?

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

Have you ever heard of the law of non-contradiction?

Sure, but how does that apply here?

 

[buttercup]

Think about it. In this world you have things that are in harmony with God’s will, and things that go against God’s will. Tell me, how can you have a world where people have freedom to make all kinds of choices but no possibility of going against God‘s will?

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

Have you ever heard of the law of non-contradiction?

Sure, but how does that apply here?

You asked why God couldn’t have created a world where all actions were only good? Something like that would only be possible if ALL moral choices were good/true, which is completely illogical and nonsensical, as two opposing statements cannot both be true at the same time, and in the same sense. That is the law of non-contradiction. That’s like saying “Intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is wrong.” But at the same time, “Intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is right.” That is illogical, and makes everything meaningless.

Why don’t you stop trying to come up alternate forms of reality, and face the reality that exists now? The sooner you do that, the better. Because one thing is absolutely certain: truth is not whatever you want it to be, it is what it is, whether you like it or not. There are certain things that are beyond your control. Once you realize that, you’ll stop trying to come up with other realities and seek the actual reality and reconcile yourself with it.

 

[Taz]

If something is against god's will, why did god make it?

If god wasn't such a tight ass, he wouldn't have a whole list of things that he made that he doesn't want us to do.

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

Have you ever heard of the law of non-contradiction?

Sure, but how does that apply here?

You asked why God couldn’t have created a world where all choices were only good? Something like that would only be possible if ALL moral choices were good/true, which is completely illogical and nonsensical, as two opposing statements cannot both be true at the same time, and in the same sense. That is the law of non-contradiction. That’s like saying “intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is wrong.” But at the same time, “Intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is right.” That is illogical, and makes everything meaningless.

Why don’t you stop trying to come up alternate forms of reality, and face the reality that exists now? The sooner you do that, the better. Because one thing is absolutely certain: truth is not whatever you want it to be, it is what it is, whether you like it or not. There are certain things that are beyond your control. Once you realize that, you’ll stop trying to come up with other realities and seek the actual reality and reconcile yourself with it.

Why is it "completely illogical and nonsensical" that all the choices can't be good ones. It's like going to an amusement park, everything there is good, there are no bad rides... and everyone has a good time. God made bad choices on purpose, why?

 

[buttercup]

I was talking about peoples actions. God doesn’t “make” peoples actions.

As for the second thing you said, you really do sound like you’re about 14 years old. Obviously there are going to be certain things that people shouldn’t do to each other, like murder, theft, etc. If you have a problem with that, take it up with God. But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help… which just goes to show your hypocrisy and/or foolishness.

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

Have you ever heard of the law of non-contradiction?

Sure, but how does that apply here?

You asked why God couldn’t have created a world where all choices were only good? Something like that would only be possible if ALL moral choices were good/true, which is completely illogical and nonsensical, as two opposing statements cannot both be true at the same time, and in the same sense. That is the law of non-contradiction. That’s like saying “intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is wrong.” But at the same time, “Intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is right.” That is illogical, and makes everything meaningless.

Why don’t you stop trying to come up alternate forms of reality, and face the reality that exists now? The sooner you do that, the better. Because one thing is absolutely certain: truth is not whatever you want it to be, it is what it is, whether you like it or not. There are certain things that are beyond your control. Once you realize that, you’ll stop trying to come up with other realities and seek the actual reality and reconcile yourself with it.

Why is it "completely illogical and nonsensical" that all the choices can't be good ones. It's like going to an amusement park, everything there is good, there are no bad rides... and everyone has a good time. God made bad choices on purpose, why?

Re-read what I said. Your amusement park world is blatantly illogical. You need to actually think, and put your stubbornness aside for a moment and humble yourself, because you are never going to actually learn anything until you set aside your pride and stubbornness.

 

[Taz]

But for someone to take an action, that action had to have been invented by god. So why would god make actions that are bad? Why not just have nothing but good choices?

Have you ever heard of the law of non-contradiction?

Sure, but how does that apply here?

You asked why God couldn’t have created a world where all choices were only good? Something like that would only be possible if ALL moral choices were good/true, which is completely illogical and nonsensical, as two opposing statements cannot both be true at the same time, and in the same sense. That is the law of non-contradiction. That’s like saying “intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is wrong.” But at the same time, “Intentionally murdering an innocent person for no reason is right.” That is illogical, and makes everything meaningless.

Why don’t you stop trying to come up alternate forms of reality, and face the reality that exists now? The sooner you do that, the better. Because one thing is absolutely certain: truth is not whatever you want it to be, it is what it is, whether you like it or not. There are certain things that are beyond your control. Once you realize that, you’ll stop trying to come up with other realities and seek the actual reality and reconcile yourself with it.

Why is it "completely illogical and nonsensical" that all the choices can't be good ones. It's like going to an amusement park, everything there is good, there are no bad rides... and everyone has a good time. God made bad choices on purpose, why?

Re-read what I said. Your amusement park world is blatantly illogical. You need to actually think, and put your stubbornness aside for a moment and humble yourself, because you are never going to actually learn anything until you set aside your pride and stubbornness.

So basically you don’t know why god made all the bad choices. Got it.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help…

Nonsense, it is the other way around. It is you who will come crying to our secular government for help, after your prayer fails you.

 

[buttercup]

So basically you don’t know why god made all the bad choices. Got it.

So basically you don’t know why you stopped beating your wife. Got it.

You know, it takes the patience of a saint to try to have a discussion with you, because your pattern is to completely ignore everything posted to you that refutes your nonsensical ideas, while repeating the same nonsense over and over, that was already addressed numerous times, on multiple threads.

In fact, I think you’re always being purposely obtuse, to test our patience. Good luck with that. I’m a very patient person, as are the other people who take the time to reply to your immature, trollish posts.

But getting back to what we were talking about, God gave us free will. If you think that’s a bad thing, because some people abuse it, then that’s your problem. But what I really think this boils down to is that you are so immature that you have not yet come to a point in your life where you are ready to accept responsibility for your own actions. That’s why you’re always trying to blame God. In fact, now that I think about it, it’s so clear. Well, I’m going to start praying for you. My prayer is that you will grow up, and finally accept responsibility for your own actions, like a big boy. And also that you’ll finally realize that although freedom has a price, ultimately it’s a good thing.

There’s much more to be said about that, but I’m not going to waste my time spelling everything out for you. You need to think about this on your own, without the pride and stubbornness. For your own sake, I hope that you do that.

 

[buttercup]

But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help…

Nonsense, it is the other way around. It is you who will come crying to our secular government for help, after your prayer fails you.

You misunderstood my point to him. Based on the post I was replying to, he seemed to have a problem with the idea that God gave us certain rules to live by. For example; do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, etc. He doesn’t like the idea that we have even the possibility of doing something wrong. My point to him was that although he doesn’t like those rules for himself, he sure as hell likes it when those rules prevent someone else from violating him. No one wants to be murdered, robbed, abused, etc. So we can see the value in those basic rules, when they protect us. Only a hypocrite would say it’s wrong to have any rules while at the same time wanting protection/ justice for himself when he is being violated.

Do you understand my point now?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help…

Nonsense, it is the other way around. It is you who will come crying to our secular government for help, after your prayer fails you.

You misunderstood my point to him. Based on the post I was replying to, he seemed to have a problem with the idea that God gave us certain rules to live by. For example; do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, etc. He doesn’t like the idea that we have even the possibility of doing something wrong. My point to him was that although he doesn’t like those rules for himself, he sure as hell likes it when those rules prevent someone else from violating him. No one wants to be murdered, robbed, abused, etc. So we can see the value in those basic rules, when they protect us. Only a hypocrite would say it’s wrong to have any rules while at the same time wanting protection/ justice for himself when he is being violated.

Do you understand my point now?

Yes, got it, thank you for the thoughtful explanation.

I reject the idea that those ideas originated with christianity or even came from god at all. My moral code is far superior to the ten commandments.

 

[buttercup]

But I’m sure the moment that someone violates you, you’ll come crying, asking for help…

Nonsense, it is the other way around. It is you who will come crying to our secular government for help, after your prayer fails you.

You misunderstood my point to him. Based on the post I was replying to, he seemed to have a problem with the idea that God gave us certain rules to live by. For example; do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, etc. He doesn’t like the idea that we have even the possibility of doing something wrong. My point to him was that although he doesn’t like those rules for himself, he sure as hell likes it when those rules prevent someone else from violating him. No one wants to be murdered, robbed, abused, etc. So we can see the value in those basic rules, when they protect us. Only a hypocrite would say it’s wrong to have any rules while at the same time wanting protection/ justice for himself when he is being violated.

Do you understand my point now?

Yes, got it, thank you for the thoughtful explanation.

I reject the idea that those ideas originated with christianity or even came from god at all. My moral code is far superior to the ten commandments.

Thanks. Well, the origin is a whole other debate. I don’t want to get into that too much on this thread, but I’ve put a lot of thought into that topic, and to me it is clear that a true, objective moral standard exists. That is a big problem for atheists, because atheists have no way to “ground” an objective moral standard… which is why most atheists claim that morality is subjective. There are so many logical problems with that, which is why the smarter atheists agree that an actual moral standard exists....they just don’t attribute it to God. Unfortunately for them, they have no way to ground objective morality, so that is one of atheism’s weaknesses. And by the way, that is one of the reasons why many atheists/agnostics become believers, because they intuitively know that a true right/wrong exists… And they eventually realize that atheism has zero way to account for it.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

to me it is clear that a true, objective moral standard exists. That is a big problem for atheists, because atheists have no way to “ground” an objective moral standard…

Nonsense. In what do you "ground" your moral standard against rape? Not the ten commandments, for sure. We call it "objectively wrong" because we have agreed on other truths we also call "objective", and that is fine. The well being of humans is something we can objectively measure, there is objective morality to be found.

You would have me believe you (not anyone else, apparently) could not arrive at an objective morality in which slavery is immoral, without your religion, or theism in general? Please. In outlawing it in this country, religion was one of the bigger obstacles.

You clam your morality derived from religion is objective, but that of atheists is subjective? To this I ask:

In the dark ages, when people were committing genocide as directed, as they saw it, by the bible... was the bible different, then?
During the witch hunts... did the Bible suddenly change?
During the days of Constantine, when infidels were publicly executed and raped... which Bible was brought along for the ride?

You see, your morality is much more dependent on the genetic accident of where and when you were born, than it is on the Bible. You carry the same Bible, yet you carry different, modern morality. It is YOUR morality that is most subjective. YOU read the Bible to suit it, when it comes more from your environment than from your Bible. Your "objective standard" you find in the bible has been snapped to fit YOUR morality, not the other way around. Your morality is more subjective than mine, as it relies less on any real rational analysis, and instead on just "gut feeling"; then snap to fit the bible to it, and , voila! Divine, "objective" morality"!

 

[buttercup]

No, no, no, no, no. I didn’t even read past the third paragraph, because you don’t seem to understand there’s a difference between religion and God. I never claimed that morality is based on “religion.”

I will have to get back to this later to elaborate, if you want. But right now I have to start cooking dinner and do some other things. But I’ll try to get back to this.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I didn’t even read past the third paragraph, because you don’t seem to understand there’s a difference between religion and God.

I accounted for that difference in the second paragraph:

"You would have me believe you (not anyone else, apparently) could not arrive at an objective morality in which slavery is immoral, without your religion, or theism in general?

 

[jillian]

You would be well advised to put on your figurative kevlar underwear.

I would advise him to keep his religion to himself.