religion is just brainwashing

[Dogmaphobe]

I haven't read through this thread, but the one constant in all discussions of religion is that the more ignorant the poster, the greater the need to lump all religions together, and the greater the knowledge, the better the ability to point out the distinctions.

I also find that the greater the attachment to political correctness, the less the ability to recognize the fundamentalism inherent in one's own views.

 

[Cecilie1200]

"Anyway, here's my question: What do you have to offer to replace my religious beliefs?"

Which ones? I have nothing to offer to replace your egotistical fantasies of being very very special and of living forever. You would simply have to abandon those ideas.

As far as morality, I have a reason-based morality to offer.

As far as coping with stress, fear, and other negative emotions: I can introduce you to all manner of techniques that perform the same functions on mental and physical health as do imaginary conversations with imaginary gods (praying).

As far as replacing your delusional feelings of moral and intellectual superiorityyou derive from the fantasy of believing you act and dictate knowledge from "divine authority"... Sorry, I have nothing to replace that. I could point you to a good psychiatrist....?

Sorry, chickenshit, but you won't be getting to deflect the topic off of my question and back onto the tangent of attacking my beliefs. You don't require any information about which particular religious beliefs I have - since we both know you wouldn't listen or make any attempt to comprehend them anyway - to answer the question. Since atheism as you express it is the fervent and active belief that there is no truth to ANY religion and that the only reality is what you can personally see and touch, my question is equally valid and answerable no matter what religion I follow.

From what I've seen of your "reason-based morality" so far, that is an oxymoron in every possible way it could be, so I do hope you have more to offer on that subject than just a blithe assumption that either your reason or your morals are self-evident.

One last side question: am I actually going to have to point out your utterly hilarious hypocrisy with every single post you make? I'd just like to know, so that I can simply create a boilerplate statement on the subject to cut-and-paste in the interests of time-saving. Thanks.

So far, just like all of human history: religion 1, atheism 0.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have a question for the evangelical atheists. And spare me your protestations of "I'm not evangelizing anything; I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe anything". If you feel the need to explain loudly to everyone how religion is a fairy tale and everyone who believes in it is a superstitious rube any and every time religion is mentioned even in passing; if you have ever used the phrase "sky fairy"; if you spend time actually starting conversations about how religion is "brainwashing" or teaching one's children about religion is "child abuse" . . . then you're an evangelical atheist, and you might as well own it.

Anyway, here's my question: What do you have to offer to replace my religious beliefs?

'Cause I have to tell you that right now, your sales technique is sadly lacking. You must have noticed that, if anything, people tend to be MORE convinced of their religious beliefs after talking to you, rather than less. Religions of all stripes have enjoyed vastly more success at convincing and recruiting people throughout all of human history than atheism ever has. This is because religion offers people something desirable in exchange for their adherence. You can argue all day about whether or not that something is really of value, but obviously, people DO value it, or they wouldn't continue to believe.

So what are YOU offering? If you think I should stop believing in God and Christianity, what are you going to replace it with? What am I going to get out of switching to your beliefs? Convince me. Sell me on it. Why should I be an atheist? What benefit will it add to my existence?

Still waiting on anyone to take up answering this question. Good thing I didn't really expect anyone to have the cojones to do it, and didn't hold my breath.

I think they are called militant atheists.

Militant atheism - Conservapedia

Some people may call them that. I continue to call them evangelical atheists, because preaching their beliefs is exactly what they're doing, same as evangelical Christians do.

Evangelical Christians witness in order to save people and bring them joy.
Evangelical Atheists lie in order to lead people away from salvation and joy.

Yup.

Oh, and evangelical religions are a hell of a lot more honest than evangelical atheists, because they freely admit they're trying to convince people and change minds.

 

[BULLDOG]

You will find a way to brainwash the kids, no matter what? That's what we thought.

I don't know why some people of the english speaking world are not able to read my German. I will repeat for you what I said:

(1) Every human being was always religious since human beings are existing (except perhaps on reasons of brain defects)
(2) Atheism is a belief

And what I did not say until now: If the USA should need body guards for Santa, we have some ...

I'm agnostic, and no, people aren't born religious, it's a man-made concept.

If you follow the philosophy agnosticism then you know that atheism is belief. And it's completely clear that every human being is religious. Thr fiets human cultures started with religion. Your problem is perhaps that you are a brainwashed brainwasher on your own, who is not able to change the own concepts on reason of the weakness of power of the own spirit.

That's just nuts. Atheists have no religious beliefs.

Atheism can be a religion. The religious nature of atheism explains their hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. The religious dogma of atheism is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. They see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure.

There are some hostile atheists, Forget the deification of man. They are hostile because of the religion that is forced on them. To be hostile toward any God wouldn't make any more sense than being hostile to a unicorn. Hard to be mad at something that you don't believe exists.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Even secularism is a Christian "dogma", doctrine, teaching.

Wow, this is stupid. But, like I always say, this is a luxury you magically thinking nutballs have that rational, evidence based thinkers do not: You can make ANYTHING fit your magical paradigm, and vice versa. That is because it is a steaming pile of nonsense that can mean anything to anyone.

Galileo did not have that luxury, when gathering empirical evidence.

Just a warning: I really doubt you want to run to Galileo to bolster your arguments, because I really doubt you know any real facts about Galileo.

That being said, if this is really the path you want to take, by all means, do continue drawing your connection between Galileo and the current topic. I'll just sit over here, watching in morbid fascination while you step on your johnson yet again.

You can equivocate your apologist garbage any way you like. Those secular ideas took root in spite of religion. Your goofy arguments by which every raindrop and historical event should be credited to your magical, bronze age fantasy don't really sway rational people.

And I'm yawning.

"Those secular ideas" . . . with no indication or explanation of which ideas you're referring to.

"Your goofy arguments" with a list of things I've never said, or even hinted at.

You flatter yourself to believe that I or anyone else here has ever wanted or been interested in your opinions OR your admiration, and you delude yourself if you think throwing out random insults is going to hide the fact that you're running away from any substantial discussion or is going to somehow make me go, "Oh, noes, the contemptible doofus I'm laughing at does not think I am the smartz. I must immediately be ashamed of my beliefs because he lamely mocked them!"

I realize that the only possible way you can argue against my beliefs is if you are arguing with yourself against a bunch of bullshit that has nothing to do with my actual beliefs. I'm just wondering how long it's going to take YOU to admit what everyone else can see.

Only question now is whether you're going to sack up in your next post, or keep retreating and pretending you're not.

You ask a question, then whine when nobody answers it. I answer it plainly and correctly, and still you whine. This is evidence your question was dishonest, you are dishonest, and you have no desire to honestly consider any alternative to your magical paradigm.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Mr. "Sky Fairy Magic Raindrops" accusing someone ELSE of inventing characterizations because of a lack of rationale or evidence.

But, since you are so rabid, you just made a very stupid error. You see, there is a difference bewteen the characterization of an idea (itself backed by argument) and the characterization of a person in an attempt to preempt any consideration of that person's arguments.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't feel hostile about religion. I just simply don't believe in it, and I do find it rather silly. Like anything else though, religion has it's pros and cons.

This is a message board where we are all free to share our views, so I don't think a person is being "hostile" for sharing views on any topics.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

I get the distinct feeling that you don't actually read and comprehend the posts in a thread before you sound off on them.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

I get the distinct feeling that you don't actually read and comprehend the posts in a thread before you sound off on them.

I see people arguing about whether or not a god exists and lack of proof for either claim. Neither party gets the upper hand. It is always going to be a draw. You can't prove your belief, and the other poster can't disprove it. Nobody really "wins" these kinds of arguments. They just go on and on and on. I just don't think saying "I don't believe in a god" is any way hateful towards anyone else. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. Most of the time, we get along just fine. You are not a perfect person because of your belief, and I am not a terrible person because of my lack of a belief in a god.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

I get the distinct feeling that you don't actually read and comprehend the posts in a thread before you sound off on them.

Yup. That's exactly the conclusion I have come to as well.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

I get the distinct feeling that you don't actually read and comprehend the posts in a thread before you sound off on them.

Yup. That's exactly the conclusion I have come to as well.

How so? I'm stating MY opinions on the matter is all. It doesn't mean that you "hate" something just because you don't believe in it or even if you poke fun at it sometimes.

 

[zaangalewa]

Satan’s Ten Strategies Against You | Desiring God

Satan? Freakish. Your ideas should be ridiculed. Your stupid religious threats and voodoo should be regarded no better than those of any stupid fuck on the corner with a sandwich board and a bullhorn. Satan... haha... oh man.

That is exactly what the Satanists say. And exactly the way they say it

The Satanists ridicule the idea of Satan and deny Satan exists? Damn you say bizarre things.

Bizarre? ... If you would really believe in Satan - would you believe in Satan? How? It's a kind of suicide to do so! Who denies the own life? Or another question: Believe Islamists in god by murdering people? ... Yes - that's bizarre. But in another way than you seem to think.

Yes, the behavior of suicidal, murderous Islamists is bizarre. But easily understood, once you understand they are literally doing exactly what their nasty little religious text describes. And if it were not for the reformation of your bronze age religion by secular ideas, many of you Christians would still be doing similar things today.

You embarrass yourself to have to invent characterizations of me in lieu of having any rationale or evidence to counter my points. Truly simple minded behavior.

The problem is that you are the formalist who likes to warn us from yourself by attributing others with the own form to think. Bizarre too. But sure you live in fear of someone who is ready to die for the own belief. Belief is a mighty weapon. But I'm also sure you know the difference between a Christian martyr and a suicide bomber. A Christian martyr murders no one, a Christians martyr becomes murdered - for example from Atheists or Islamists. Islamists - and also blind Atheists - are always ready to let others die for the own belief. It's by the way wrong too, that Islamists die for their own belief - in most cases they are dying for the social security of their families. Or with other words: For money for their families.

I guess we can let it be to speak with each other. You are absolutely not interested what a Christian says to you. You don't need experts in questions of belief. You are your own expert - independent how many of your fellow citizens will die, because you say stupid things by fighting totally senseless together with Islamists against Christians.

 

[Bonzi]

Many of it is. Some is brainwashing, a lot of it is guilt driven.
But you have to realized, church leaders are human beings, many of them false as well.

 

[zaangalewa]

Many of it is. Some is brainwashing, a lot of it is guilt driven.
But you have to realized, church leaders are human beings, many of them false as well.

God was once a human being too. Jesus is one of us.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

I get the distinct feeling that you don't actually read and comprehend the posts in a thread before you sound off on them.

I see people arguing about whether or not a god exists and lack of proof for either claim. Neither party gets the upper hand. It is always going to be a draw. You can't prove your belief, and the other poster can't disprove it. Nobody really "wins" these kinds of arguments. They just go on and on and on. I just don't think saying "I don't believe in a god" is any way hateful towards anyone else. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. Most of the time, we get along just fine. You are not a perfect person because of your belief, and I am not a terrible person because of my lack of a belief in a god.

Well, a couple of things.

First of all, this isn't a simple back-and-forth argument about whether or not God exists, simply because it's never begun by Christians (or most other religious people, for that matter) and never takes place as an even, equally-engaged discussion. It is ALWAYS begun as a nasty, insulting attack by atheists, and engaged by religious people merely as a defense against the attack. It's amazing how you seem to miss that entire aspect of the exercise.

So yeah, it's unlikely that either side's going to persuade the other under those circumstances.

I also find it rather incredible that you don't see how essentially walking up to someone and saying, apropos of nothing, "Your beliefs are wrong, and I think you're stupid for believing them" is not hateful. Just the fact that NO ONE ASKED YOU, all by itself, is rude in the extreme. It's equivalent to walking up to a total stranger and saying, "I think your kids are really ugly." The kids may actually BE ugly, but you don't frigging SAY it. And you certainly don't say it and expect them to just shrug and ignore you, or categorize the results as "an argument".

You and I mostly get along fine because you're not an evangelical atheist. You're generally courteous enough to respect my right to believe whatever I want and recognize that if I haven't asked you, I'm not interested in your opinion on it. Sadly, most of the non-believers on this thread don't possess that level of maturity and self-control.

For the record, religious people generally don't consider themselves perfect, or even superior, because of their beliefs. This is a fallacy believed by many atheists simply because THEY feel their beliefs make them superior, and projected onto everyone else. Christianity, as well as many other belief systems, actually hold as a core tenet the idea that humans are deeply flawed, and the practice of their beliefs is a means by which they improve themselves. Nor do we consider those who don't share our beliefs to be any worse as people than we are, simply because they don't agree with us. I will say, however, that I consider evangelical atheists to be worse people, not because they don't believe in God, but because they feel the need to be so aggressively abrasive and nasty about it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't see this as any different from sharing views on any other topic, like transgenderism, homosexuality, etc. Does it mean you "hate" them if you don't agree with them? Nope. Doesn't.

I get the distinct feeling that you don't actually read and comprehend the posts in a thread before you sound off on them.

Yup. That's exactly the conclusion I have come to as well.

How so? I'm stating MY opinions on the matter is all. It doesn't mean that you "hate" something just because you don't believe in it or even if you poke fun at it sometimes.

Yes, but we're not talking about you and what you're doing. The problem would be the other non-believers on the thread, most especially the dink who started it all.

Frankly, though, I don't see how any decent, well-brought-up adult could think that "poking fun" at something as important and central to people's lives as their religious beliefs is really ever going to be anything but hateful.

 

[G.T.]

My views generally align with Sam's, he articulates them way better.

 

[koshergrl]

Faith in Action
1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”11:5 Gen. 5:24 For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she11:11 Or By faith Abraham, even though he was too old to have children—and Sarah herself was not able to conceive—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”11:18 Gen. 21:1219Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.11:31 Or unbelieving
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were put to death by stoning;11:37 Some early manuscripts stoning; they were put to the test; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
l

 

[zaangalewa]

I haven't read through this thread, but the one constant in all discussions of religion is that the more ignorant the poster, the greater the need to lump all religions together, and the greater the knowledge, the better the ability to point out the distinctions.

I also find that the greater the attachment to political correctness, the less the ability to recognize the fundamentalism inherent in one's own views.

By the way: The word "fundamentalism" is the wrong "fundamentalism" it expresses on its own. This word is normally used for extremists. But how is an extreme able to be fundament? Extremes and extremists are instable.

On a fundament are basing buildings and/or traditions. Churches for example. I guess that's the deeper reason why the modern propagandists of hate moved the word "fundament" into the position "extremism". That's a Nazi- strategy. Did I say now you are a Nazi? No! But ask yourself for example how often you are using the words "Jews" and "Germans" as if it would be opposites. Lots and lots and lots of people worldwide are doing so - specially Germans and Jews too. That's still an effect of the Nazi propaganda. But what made Hitler really? The Nazis called German Aryans and Jews were not Aryans (like all others! - what's crazy too) and they used a marker (the yellow star) to make out of Jews strange Not-Aryans, strange Germans under Germans. This was totally stupid - but it worked. Racism is stupid and makes stupid. But let me come back to the word "fundamentalism". What Christians normally understand under the word "fundament" has nothing to do with the secular use of this word today:

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Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
As you come to him, the living Stone — rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him — you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”
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