Reaganomics vs Obamanomics

[Truthseeker420]

One succeeded, the other failed. From this AM's WSJ. More at the source.

Stephen Moore: Obamanonics vs. Reaganomics - WSJ.com

Let's start out with the first assertion

two presidents have a lot in common. Both inherited an American economy in collapse. A

Nation Debt Reagan started with 850 billion
National Debt Obama started with 10+ Trillion plus defered debt from wars and Tax breaks

Reagan started with Zero wars
Obama started with 2 wars

Reagan started with a fairly steady unemployment rate
Obama started with a uneployment rate that was falling of a cliff.

If you study Keynes none of that matters, what matters is that government spending exceed a certain percentage of GDP in order to stimulate the economy in a recession. The reason Reagan's stimulus worked is that the government ran a deficit of 5% of GDP. In other words, government spending fueled the Reagan recovery.

Obama took that belief to heart, despite hiring an economic adviser that actually wrote a paper proving that it was bunk. (For some reason she later decided that what we needed is exactly what she said would not work, but that is neither here nor there.) He has spent a rates that, according to Keynesian theory, should have propelled the economy into record growth, despite the fact that we were facing a record recession. The best anyone has been able to say is that this is somehow different, just like you just did.

By the way, Reagan actually managed to end the Cold War, which some might say was actually just an armed truce that resulted after WWII "officially" ended. He might not have had to fight two wars, but he won the most expensive war in American history.

I was just disproving the OP article's first assertion that Reagan and Obama inherited the same economy.

 

[Oldstyle]

Your numbers say excactly what I say unemployment went down from 7.8 in
july 1980 to 7.2 in December 1980. Remember Reagan didn't take office until Jan. 1981

another amateur with a hate on and doesn't even know why, except the media has told him to protect the messiah.

you have not the slightest idea of the topic.....hence of what you are discussing, 30 seconds of Google can take one only so far eh? ...go read a friggin book,..... dopey.

Is that all you guys have is insults?

If you'd actually studied the economy back when Reagan took over from Carter you'd know that the single biggest problem we faced back then was Stagflation. Reagan's first order of business was to correct that. He did so by having the Fed tighten up the money supply. In doing so he made the economy contract and increased unemployment...hence his low levels of popular support almost three years into his Presidency. Once Reagan had inflation under control he cut taxes and government regulations and the economy took off giving us the longest single sustained period of economic growth in our countries history.

Now contrast THAT with what Barack Obama has done.

The fact is our current President has used the Fed to lower interest rates to near 0% and he STILL can't get unemployment to drop. There is nothing that Obama's done since taking office that's going to lead to the same kind of economic surge as Reagan produced because he hasn't paid the price leading up to this point. He blew a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a stimulus plan that was more liberal pork fest then stimulant, adding so much to the deficit we have that we had our credit rating downgraded.

 

[Truthseeker420]

another amateur with a hate on and doesn't even know why, except the media has told him to protect the messiah.

you have not the slightest idea of the topic.....hence of what you are discussing, 30 seconds of Google can take one only so far eh? ...go read a friggin book,..... dopey.

Is that all you guys have is insults?

If you'd actually studied the economy back when Reagan took over from Carter you'd know that the single biggest problem we faced back then was Stagflation. Reagan's first order of business was to correct that. He did so by having the Fed tighten up the money supply. In doing so he made the economy contract and increased unemployment...hence his low levels of popular support almost three years into his Presidency. Once Reagan had inflation under control he cut taxes and government regulations and the economy took off giving us the longest single sustained period of economic growth in our countries history.

Now contrast THAT with what Barack Obama has done.

The fact is our current President has used the Fed to lower interest rates to near 0% and he STILL can't get unemployment to drop. There is nothing that Obama's done since taking office that's going to lead to the same kind of economic surge as Reagan produced because he hasn't paid the price leading up to this point. He blew a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a stimulus plan that was more liberal pork fest then stimulant, adding so much to the deficit we have that we had our credit rating downgraded.

Carter or Reagan have no control on whet the Fed does. Fed plays politics with the American economy(but thats another thread) Obama was left with a much bigger mess than Reagan. And Carter didn't help himself by pissing off the middle east and trying to make America energy independent. Carter didn't reaslize how shortsighted and selfish Americans are....

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Let's start out with the first assertion

Nation Debt Reagan started with 850 billion
National Debt Obama started with 10+ Trillion plus defered debt from wars and Tax breaks

Reagan started with Zero wars
Obama started with 2 wars

Reagan started with a fairly steady unemployment rate
Obama started with a uneployment rate that was falling of a cliff.

If you study Keynes none of that matters, what matters is that government spending exceed a certain percentage of GDP in order to stimulate the economy in a recession. The reason Reagan's stimulus worked is that the government ran a deficit of 5% of GDP. In other words, government spending fueled the Reagan recovery.

Obama took that belief to heart, despite hiring an economic adviser that actually wrote a paper proving that it was bunk. (For some reason she later decided that what we needed is exactly what she said would not work, but that is neither here nor there.) He has spent a rates that, according to Keynesian theory, should have propelled the economy into record growth, despite the fact that we were facing a record recession. The best anyone has been able to say is that this is somehow different, just like you just did.

By the way, Reagan actually managed to end the Cold War, which some might say was actually just an armed truce that resulted after WWII "officially" ended. He might not have had to fight two wars, but he won the most expensive war in American history.

I was just disproving the OP article's first assertion that Reagan and Obama inherited the same economy.

Neither of them inherited anything, they went after it knowing how bad it was. The difference was in what they did to fix it. Reagan chose to act with common sense, Obama chose to apply esoteric techniques. One succeeded, the other failed. Until you disprove that you are not disproving anything about the OP.

Feel free to live in your delusions though.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Is that all you guys have is insults?

If you'd actually studied the economy back when Reagan took over from Carter you'd know that the single biggest problem we faced back then was Stagflation. Reagan's first order of business was to correct that. He did so by having the Fed tighten up the money supply. In doing so he made the economy contract and increased unemployment...hence his low levels of popular support almost three years into his Presidency. Once Reagan had inflation under control he cut taxes and government regulations and the economy took off giving us the longest single sustained period of economic growth in our countries history.

Now contrast THAT with what Barack Obama has done.

The fact is our current President has used the Fed to lower interest rates to near 0% and he STILL can't get unemployment to drop. There is nothing that Obama's done since taking office that's going to lead to the same kind of economic surge as Reagan produced because he hasn't paid the price leading up to this point. He blew a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a stimulus plan that was more liberal pork fest then stimulant, adding so much to the deficit we have that we had our credit rating downgraded.

Carter or Reagan have no control on whet the Fed does. Fed plays politics with the American economy(but thats another thread) Obama was left with a much bigger mess than Reagan. And Carter didn't help himself by pissing off the middle east and trying to make America energy independent. Carter didn't reaslize how shortsighted and selfish Americans are....

Americans are not short sighted, nor are they selfish. If they were they would be willing to let the future deal with the deficit Congress and Obama are trying to saddle them with.

 

[Big Fitz]

The Reagan years achieved their 'growth' through cheap energy and a consumer credit bubble...

Clinton years - Stock bubble...

Bush years - Housing bubble...

Unfortunately, with cheap energy gone (probably for good), the only way to see comparable growth is the find the next bubble, and there's some intellectual disagreement about whether inflating it would be the right thing to do, even if we could locate and guide the inflation of said bubble.

Cheap energy does not have to be gone, if the moratoriums where lifted and drilling allowed in this country again. Again, the leftists have the stranglehold on America in this area also. Blame Obama and the communist environmentalists for more expensive energy, noone else.

Don't be stupid. Oil will never be as plentiful, low-hanging and cheap as it once was. Never-ever. Cheap energy will one day come in the form of an entirely new source, probably fusion. Until then oil will be a bumpy plateau trending up, up, up.

and technology will NEVER be developed to economically access and cheaply exploit these more difficult products. After all, oil production tech and science and methods also peaked with Jimmeh... isn't that true?

 

[Big Fitz]

You're right, it will never be as cheap as it ONCE was, but would be a hell off alot cheaper then it is now if the politicians in charge would allow us to drill for it.
Also, until this new cheaper energy is ready to go we are stuck with Oil, so why not make it cheaper now by not importing it and drilling our own until that day comes? Makes too much sense for someone as smart as you right? Do you enjoy paying $4 at the pump right now? Or would you rather be paying $1 at the pump for a gallon of gas?
Do you know what a gallon of gas in Iraq costs the Iraqis? 10 cents a gallon, they drill their own oil. So until you learn what you are claiming to know, you shouldn't be calling anyone else stupid. Idiot.

Are you insinuating that Exxon will sell it domestically only for cost, cause they're just that damn patriotic?

OK, here's the deal. You might want to sit down. This is awkward, I hate having to be the one to do this. But apparently nobody has done it for you yet. This is gonna be hard for you, but ultimately you'll be better off.

[deep breath] OK - here goes.

You are very, very stupid. Everything you say is dogmatic, partisan crap, and completely ignorant of reality.

Alright, relax, let that soak in for awhile, then read on....





Ok.

Now, I could explain to you all the reasons you're wrong about this, eg it costs 10-100x more to drill offshore than it does in Iraq where it's seeping out of the ground; oil companies will put the corresponding spoils on the global market; OPEC will cut production to compensate and keep the price high; we only have 2% of reserves; It's political suicide to show our cards; et cetera; But it probably wouldn't matter, because you're stupid.

Don't wrack your little peanut brain trying to figure out how wrong you are about this specific issue; You need to be focused on getting the help you need. Start by turning of Fox and proceeding to the nearest library, stat.

You're a Pseudointellectual. We have a 100 year supply in Alaska that the progressives will not allow us to touch, and they are finding even bigger deposits in places such as the dakotas and even in West Virginia. And believe it or not, we dont need exxon or a major oil company to drill it, there are plenty of smaller companies more than willing to do the job. Importing is what is killing us, OPEC is killing us, speculators are killing us. We need to drill our own oil and tell OPEC to fuck off.
I understand you drink the koolaid, and that is cool if it's your thing. But out of all the partisan hacks on here I am one of the only ones that will sit here and be honest enough to say that the issues we deal with today came from both sides of the isle, and yes, it's part bush's fault too.
But that doesn't mean that this is not obamas economy either, he has been in office for 2-1/2 years now, he owns it whether he likes it or not, whether you like it or not. He promised hope, and has failed to deliver.

but but but, that isn't viable because it's not light sweet crude and can't be sucked out of the ground with a straw. The technology will never exist to make it economically available and can never ever be processed into viable energy at any reasonable price because we won't let you have access to it or consider new, effective technologies developed after 1969 in which to find, produce and use oil.

the peaker universe is a static model of never changing predictions. Only the dates are moved to make it seem current while technology and innovation leave them in a malthusian oludavi trench.

 

[hellofromwarsaw]

Ronnie Raygun was a lucky demented actor idiot. He quadrupled the deficit, a war economy with no war...idiocy. Over. Quadrupled!- good thing he didn't bring back the hardliners. Good loves fools and drunkards...

 

[yidnar]

Ronnie Raygun was a lucky demented actor idiot. He quadrupled the deficit, a war economy with no war...idiocy. Over. Quadrupled!- good thing he didn't bring back the hardliners. Good loves fools and drunkards...

you are an unproductive communist who believes in nothing [ not even yourself ] but big government feeding and supporting your lazy ass!!!............and it's so much better under Obama than it was under Reagan ..............YEAH RIGHT !!!

 

[Oldstyle]

Is that all you guys have is insults?

If you'd actually studied the economy back when Reagan took over from Carter you'd know that the single biggest problem we faced back then was Stagflation. Reagan's first order of business was to correct that. He did so by having the Fed tighten up the money supply. In doing so he made the economy contract and increased unemployment...hence his low levels of popular support almost three years into his Presidency. Once Reagan had inflation under control he cut taxes and government regulations and the economy took off giving us the longest single sustained period of economic growth in our countries history.

Now contrast THAT with what Barack Obama has done.

The fact is our current President has used the Fed to lower interest rates to near 0% and he STILL can't get unemployment to drop. There is nothing that Obama's done since taking office that's going to lead to the same kind of economic surge as Reagan produced because he hasn't paid the price leading up to this point. He blew a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a stimulus plan that was more liberal pork fest then stimulant, adding so much to the deficit we have that we had our credit rating downgraded.

Carter or Reagan have no control on whet the Fed does. Fed plays politics with the American economy(but thats another thread) Obama was left with a much bigger mess than Reagan. And Carter didn't help himself by pissing off the middle east and trying to make America energy independent. Carter didn't reaslize how shortsighted and selfish Americans are....

With all due respect? If you think that the President of the United State has no influence over the Fed then you're rather naive.

Obama was left with a "different" mess than Obama. It's hard to characterize one or the other as a bigger mess because both of them were pretty darn awful. The difference in how each President handled their problems is what separates the two men. Reagan took some really bold (and politically dangerous) steps to attack the problems that he was left and those steps paid off. He endured some incredible early heat about his policies and stuck to them. On the other hand, Obama tried Keynesian spending. It didn't work and then he didn't know what to do. Now Larry Summers and Christina Romer have fled the sinking ship that is this White House...it's six months later and Barack Obama STILL doesn't know what to do.

 

[Wicked Jester]

If you'd actually studied the economy back when Reagan took over from Carter you'd know that the single biggest problem we faced back then was Stagflation. Reagan's first order of business was to correct that. He did so by having the Fed tighten up the money supply. In doing so he made the economy contract and increased unemployment...hence his low levels of popular support almost three years into his Presidency. Once Reagan had inflation under control he cut taxes and government regulations and the economy took off giving us the longest single sustained period of economic growth in our countries history.

Now contrast THAT with what Barack Obama has done.

The fact is our current President has used the Fed to lower interest rates to near 0% and he STILL can't get unemployment to drop. There is nothing that Obama's done since taking office that's going to lead to the same kind of economic surge as Reagan produced because he hasn't paid the price leading up to this point. He blew a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a stimulus plan that was more liberal pork fest then stimulant, adding so much to the deficit we have that we had our credit rating downgraded.

Carter or Reagan have no control on whet the Fed does. Fed plays politics with the American economy(but thats another thread) Obama was left with a much bigger mess than Reagan. And Carter didn't help himself by pissing off the middle east and trying to make America energy independent. Carter didn't reaslize how shortsighted and selfish Americans are....

With all due respect? If you think that the President of the United State has no influence over the Fed then you're rather naive.

Obama was left with a "different" mess than Obama. It's hard to characterize one or the other as a bigger mess because both of them were pretty darn awful. The difference in how each President handled their problems is what separates the two men. Reagan took some really bold (and politically dangerous) steps to attack the problems that he was left and those steps paid off. He endured some incredible early heat about his policies and stuck to them. On the other hand, Obama tried Keynesian spending. It didn't work and then he didn't know what to do. Now Larry Summers and Christina Romer have fled the sinking ship that is this White House...it's six months later and Barack Obama STILL doesn't know what to do.

And the sad thing is, after listening to Obama's newest adviser, Austen Goolsbee on one of the talk shows this morning, it became quite clear that it's going to be pretty much the same failed policies coming from Obama........Doubling down on failure.

God help this great country.

 

[Truthseeker420]

If you'd actually studied the economy back when Reagan took over from Carter you'd know that the single biggest problem we faced back then was Stagflation. Reagan's first order of business was to correct that. He did so by having the Fed tighten up the money supply. In doing so he made the economy contract and increased unemployment...hence his low levels of popular support almost three years into his Presidency. Once Reagan had inflation under control he cut taxes and government regulations and the economy took off giving us the longest single sustained period of economic growth in our countries history.

Now contrast THAT with what Barack Obama has done.

The fact is our current President has used the Fed to lower interest rates to near 0% and he STILL can't get unemployment to drop. There is nothing that Obama's done since taking office that's going to lead to the same kind of economic surge as Reagan produced because he hasn't paid the price leading up to this point. He blew a trillion dollars of borrowed money on a stimulus plan that was more liberal pork fest then stimulant, adding so much to the deficit we have that we had our credit rating downgraded.

Carter or Reagan have no control on whet the Fed does. Fed plays politics with the American economy(but thats another thread) Obama was left with a much bigger mess than Reagan. And Carter didn't help himself by pissing off the middle east and trying to make America energy independent. Carter didn't reaslize how shortsighted and selfish Americans are....

Americans are not short sighted, nor are they selfish. If they were they would be willing to let the future deal with the deficit Congress and Obama are trying to saddle them with.

Maybe I sould of said "some people" And Republicans are only worried about the debt because a Democrat isi in office.

 

[Truthseeker420]

And I think it is worth mentioning that in addition to my previous post Reagan had a stronger manufacturing base and a stronger consumer base.

 

[The Rabbi]

And I think it is worth mentioning that in addition to my previous post Reagan had a stronger manufacturing base and a stronger consumer base.

That's the manufacturing base that was being decimated by Japanese competition, right?
Were you even alive then?

But it doesn't matter. Reagan's polciies worked, Obama's have failed. That is simply the record here.

 

[editec]

The FED started deampening down STAGFLATION long before Reagan took office, folks.

Remember what the prime rate was during Carters last years in office?

And by slowing down the economy, (read by increasing unemployment) the FED crushed inflation.

And THAT changing economy was what Reagan was working with.

Some of you might remember that Reagans first two years were sort of rocky, right?

But as the economy changed, as stagflation went away, the economy (thanks in part to Reagan's policies, but mostly tahnks to the pain and suffering that happened before he gtook office!) went through a period of recovery.

But comparing what Reagan face to what Obama faces is just foolish.

EAch POTUS faces thew economy he has, not the economy that some prevsious POTUS had.

 

[The Rabbi]

The FED started deampening down STAGFLATION long before Reagan took office, folks.

Remember what the prime rate was during Carters last years in office?

And by slowing down the economy, (read by increasing unemployment) the FED crushed inflation.

And THAT changing economy was what Reagan was working with.

Some of you might remember that Reagans first two years were sort of rocky, right?

But as the economy changed, as stagflation went away, the economy (thanks in part to Reagan's policies, but mostly tahnks to the pain and suffering that happened before he gtook office!) went through a period of recovery.

But comparing what Reagan face to what Obama faces is just foolish.

EAch POTUS faces thew economy he has, not the economy that some prevsious POTUS had.

That's why the Discount Rate peaked in May of 1981? The Fed did not solve the economy's problems. The Fed cannot solve the economy's problems. They can be one actor in doing that.
Reagan's fiscal policies were the other actor. His deregulation and lower taxes worked.

Obama's policies have failed. He pulled all the Keynesian triggers--ultra low interest rates and gov't stimulus--and they all failed. The Fed's policy is to increase inflation. THat in itself tells you desperate everyone is.

 

[Truthseeker420]

And I think it is worth mentioning that in addition to my previous post Reagan had a stronger manufacturing base and a stronger consumer base.

That's the manufacturing base that was being decimated by Japanese competition, right?
Were you even alive then?

But it doesn't matter. Reagan's polciies worked, Obama's have failed. That is simply the record here.

Japanese cars were becoming more popular due to the oil crisis. Reagan raised taxes, expanded the government and raised the National Debt by a record amount. Reagan did released some trade restrictions that improved the economy but IMO Trickle Down economics is a total failure.

And I was elementary school during Carter. I guess I am Gen X.

 

[midcan5]

Reagan was a Keynesian, he spent like crazy till he started to raise taxes like crazy. America became a debtor nation under Reagan because his spending was on useless defense systems that didn't work. The S&L bailout was the biggest republican bailout till Bush Jr nearly brought down the nation under similar republican policies. History will always be re-written, but for those of us who lived through Reagan he was not only a failure but he started many of the ideas that have lead to a weaker America Today.

Because republican policies since Coolidge have failed, Reagan remains the best myth the right wing has, when you consider how badly he did, you realize why history becomes a rewrite.

"....there's a growing realization that the starting point for many of the catastrophes confronting the United States today can be traced to Reagan's presidency. There's also a grudging reassessment that the "failed"- presidents of the 1970s--Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter--may deserve more credit for trying to grapple with the problems that now beset the country." OpEdNews - Article: Ronald Reagan: Worst President Ever?


http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20090213_allen_barra_on_the_myth_of_ronald_reagan/


Reagan Raised Taxes At Least 7 Times, Including the Biggest Corporate Tax Hike Ever

 

[editec]

The FED started deampening down STAGFLATION long before Reagan took office, folks.

Remember what the prime rate was during Carters last years in office?

And by slowing down the economy, (read by increasing unemployment) the FED crushed inflation.

And THAT changing economy was what Reagan was working with.

Some of you might remember that Reagans first two years were sort of rocky, right?

But as the economy changed, as stagflation went away, the economy (thanks in part to Reagan's policies, but mostly tahnks to the pain and suffering that happened before he gtook office!) went through a period of recovery.

But comparing what Reagan face to what Obama faces is just foolish.

EAch POTUS faces thew economy he has, not the economy that some prevsious POTUS had.

That's why the Discount Rate peaked in May of 1981? The Fed did not solve the economy's problems. The Fed cannot solve the economy's problems. They can be one actor in doing that.

I agree. The FED can do what the FED can do but it is NOT the sole arbitor of how the economy will act.

Reagan's fiscal policies were the other actor. His deregulation and lower taxes worked.

They certainly worked well for some of the population, on that we also agree.

Obama's policies have failed.

More or less true.

He pulled all the Keynesian triggers--ultra low interest rates

Obama does not dictate the interests rates to the FED, amigo. No POTUS does that. Carter didn't, Reagan didn't, Bush II didn't and Obama does not.

and gov't stimulus--and they all failed.

MOre or less true. Of course we cannot know what might have happened if things had been done differently. That is the nature of social science problems, isn't it?

Each event is an entirely unique event in history.

The Fed's policy is to increase inflation. THat in itself tells you desperate everyone is.

Oh we've GOT inflation, alright.

Only its not inflating salaries, it is merely inflating the cost of consumables.

I'd say that the cost of living for the average American family has risen about 10% in the last couple years.

Meanwhile the value of labor continues to decline.

FWIW, I doubt any POTUS can do much about that, right now.

 

[The Rabbi]

And I think it is worth mentioning that in addition to my previous post Reagan had a stronger manufacturing base and a stronger consumer base.

That's the manufacturing base that was being decimated by Japanese competition, right?
Were you even alive then?

But it doesn't matter. Reagan's polciies worked, Obama's have failed. That is simply the record here.

Japanese cars were becoming more popular due to the oil crisis. Reagan raised taxes, expanded the government and raised the National Debt by a record amount. Reagan did released some trade restrictions that improved the economy but IMO Trickle Down economics is a total failure.

And I was elementary school during Carter. I guess I am Gen X.

You haven't progressed much since then.
Detroit tried to roll out cars to compete with the Toyota and Honda. We got the Pinto and AMC Pacer.
The steel industry was in deep decline, as foreign companies could produce steel, ship it, and sell it cheaper than American made. THe US still made televisions, but that went away too. Same with radios and other electronic stuff.
The record of Reagan's economic policy is clear and acknowledged by anyone who isnt a partisan hack with an agenda to grind.