Question for believers: Are we within God's jurisdiction?

[Brian Blackwell]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

Pick your version, it's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

The implications of this are that the actions of every government that ever existed are in perfect accord with God's law - Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Nero - does this reflect your view?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

IDK...I live my life as I explained, I follow laws but if one interferes or conflicts with God's laws I'll follow God's...as a Christian I have to

Well that's a choice you are free to make for yourself, but you are denying governmental authority altogether by asserting your right to choose which laws to follow. Governmental law does not allow for this choice; it claims full authority. If you reserve the right to choose, then you are necessarily implying that man's law does not have this claimed authority. If it does not have authority, then to support its claim to authority over others is immoral. You are subjecting others to a false authority by voting, paying taxes, participating and supporting it in any way.

 

[Doc1]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

Pick your version, it's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

The implications of this are that the actions of every government that ever existed are in perfect accord with God's law - Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Nero - does this reflect your view?

It Implies no such thing. It simply says that ALL authority comes from God and that man in Government, as in all things, gets to choose of his own free will what to do with it. Just as one can choose Jesus or reject Jesus.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

IDK...I live my life as I explained, I follow laws but if one interferes or conflicts with God's laws I'll follow God's...as a Christian I have to

Well that's a choice you are free to make for yourself, but you are denying governmental authority altogether by asserting your right to choose which laws to follow. Governmental law does not allow for this choice; it claims full authority. If you reserve the right to choose, then you are necessarily implying that man's law does not have this claimed authority. If it does not have authority, then to support its claim to authority over others is immoral. You are subjecting others to a false authority by voting, paying taxes, participating and supporting it in any way.

The government will never have full authority over me. The government should fear me, not me fearing it

 

[Brian Blackwell]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

Pick your version, it's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

The implications of this are that the actions of every government that ever existed are in perfect accord with God's law - Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Nero - does this reflect your view?

It Implies no such thing. It simply says that ALL authority comes from God and that man in Government, as in all things, gets to choose of his own free will what to do with it. Just as one can choose Jesus or reject Jesus.

Ah ok... so if I understand you correctly, it does not say that all their actions are in accord with God's law, but it says that should recognize their authority as valid, and subject ourselves to it, regardless of what they do?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

IDK...I live my life as I explained, I follow laws but if one interferes or conflicts with God's laws I'll follow God's...as a Christian I have to

Well that's a choice you are free to make for yourself, but you are denying governmental authority altogether by asserting your right to choose which laws to follow. Governmental law does not allow for this choice; it claims full authority. If you reserve the right to choose, then you are necessarily implying that man's law does not have this claimed authority. If it does not have authority, then to support its claim to authority over others is immoral. You are subjecting others to a false authority by voting, paying taxes, participating and supporting it in any way.

The government will never have full authority over me. The government should fear me, not me fearing it

So you deny the validity of governmental authority? How do you address the moral concern of subjecting others to an invalid authority by supporting government's right to rule others?

 

[MisterBeale]

Pick your version, t's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

Romans?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

If man's law conflicts with God's law Christians follow God's law. It's paramount.

Thomas Jefferson once said "if a law us unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Look at it that way

Try Acts 5:29 also

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

IDK...I live my life as I explained, I follow laws but if one interferes or conflicts with God's laws I'll follow God's...as a Christian I have to

Well that's a choice you are free to make for yourself, but you are denying governmental authority altogether by asserting your right to choose which laws to follow. Governmental law does not allow for this choice; it claims full authority. If you reserve the right to choose, then you are necessarily implying that man's law does not have this claimed authority. If it does not have authority, then to support its claim to authority over others is immoral. You are subjecting others to a false authority by voting, paying taxes, participating and supporting it in any way.

The government will never have full authority over me. The government should fear me, not me fearing it

So you deny the validity of governmental authority? How do you address the moral concern of subjecting others to an invalid authority by supporting government's right to rule others?

Keyword was "full" authority. Laws are needed for an organized, prosperous and safe society. Government over reach becomes the problem.

Obamacare being a prime example of over reach

 

[Doc1]

Pick your version, t's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

Romans?

YUP.

 

[Mac1958]

Who has the ultimate right to speak the law?

Hmph, my wife, duh.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Who has the ultimate right to speak the law?

Hmph, my wife, duh.

My Grandmother had a lot of refrigerator magnets with various quotes and sayings.

One of them said "Here's to the guy who rules the roost, and to the gal who rules the rooster".

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Oh, that God.

Are you sure?

There are so many gods and I really don't know which of them actually made laws.

Does it matter though?

 

[MisterBeale]

Pick your version, t's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

Romans?

YUP.

The Christian Bible is a product of the Roman empire.

This is like giving all of the philosophical and spiritual knowledge that humanity has gained up to this point in history to the Department of Homeland security and telling them to write for us a holy text.

smdh

Ancient dogmatic religious texts are as much political as they are spiritual. Religion= Spirituality+Politics

The Gnostic writings were completely left out of the picture b/c it would mean wisdom from family, the spirit, the environment, and democratic and republican ideals would have as much power as the ancient hierarchical systems of control. Oligarchs would no longer remain the only source of legitimate political power if that were the case. (Google "the divine right of kings.")

Any scholar of history knows that the Bible is as much influenced by the OT, which is itself influenced by Hammurabi's Code, which is in turn inspired by the Book of the Dead, which is in turn influenced by the Emerald tablet (and maybe the Avesta oral tradition?)

These are ancient codes of spiritual wisdom, layered with dogmatic hierarchical systems of control, and these have always been in the hands of the elder religious elites. We must understand that this was a letter from an elder of the Christian Church, trying to protect and grow the church in Rome at a precarious time, at that time, it was all politics when both Jew and Christians were under threat of persecution. As such, it should be read that way.
Paul and Civil Obedience in Romans 13:1-7


It's axiomatic that tradesmen, farmers, craftsmen and slaves have no time for any of this.

 

[Timmy]

Give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and unto God the things that are God's

We are expected to follow laws UNLESS they go against God's Laws....then God's Laws are paramount

It really is laughable that you pretend to be a Cristian when you post such evil shit that would make Jesus flip out .

You know how Christ reacts. You must be a real Christian.

Did a stint at catholic school. I’m pretty versed on the Bible.

I don’t think JC would be cool with the typical right wing agenda if hating poor, immigrants , minorities, etc..

Yeah moron...Jesus would embrace abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism? You're a damn liar you're not versed on anything but left tard indoctrination. Stupid fuck

What does the Bible day about abortion or transgender ?

 

[MisterBeale]

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I think many would agree, and yet the logical implications of this are largely ignored. How do you address the argument made in the opening post about one primary authority obviating all others, whether they agree or not?

IDK...I live my life as I explained, I follow laws but if one interferes or conflicts with God's laws I'll follow God's...as a Christian I have to

Well that's a choice you are free to make for yourself, but you are denying governmental authority altogether by asserting your right to choose which laws to follow. Governmental law does not allow for this choice; it claims full authority. If you reserve the right to choose, then you are necessarily implying that man's law does not have this claimed authority. If it does not have authority, then to support its claim to authority over others is immoral. You are subjecting others to a false authority by voting, paying taxes, participating and supporting it in any way.

The government will never have full authority over me. The government should fear me, not me fearing it

So you deny the validity of governmental authority? How do you address the moral concern of subjecting others to an invalid authority by supporting government's right to rule others?

Keyword was "full" authority. Laws are needed for an organized, prosperous and safe society. Government over reach becomes the problem.

Obamacare being a prime example of over reach

Overreach, indeed. Just another tiptoe toward totalitarianism.

You say laws are needed, but necessity is not the question at this particular moment. The key concern in this tread is validity.

The OP sets forth an argument for a primary authority completely obviating any secondary authority. The only reason I even use the word “primary” is to speak in accord with common notions of various authorities, but truly, there can only be one authority in any given realm of influence.

Authority, in this context, is the right to rule. It can have no competition, and there can be no choice about when you will be ruled by it, and when you will not. You may fail in the effort to follow its rule, but that is different than simply overriding its rule with something else. If you reserve the right to override its rule, you do not accept it as authority.

If, where conflicts occur, you choose God’s law, then man’s law is not authority. If God’s law is the authority in your life, then where God and country are in alignment (such as in the case of not stealing), you follow man’s law merely by coincidence, since you were already prohibited from the action by a previous obligation (God’s law). Therefore, man’s law exacted no influence upon you; it was entirely moot.

Do you see the problem in saying that you can have two authorities in your life? You may follow man’s law by choice where God’s law does not forbid it, but that is just a personal choice, a preference; it is not obedience to an authority. Do you agree?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

Who has the ultimate right to speak the law? Hmph, my wife, duh.

Ugh, just horrible. I can’t stand this trite, demeaning humor about women being the boss in a relationship. I know you’re joking, but...

Just a pet peeve...

 

[Brian Blackwell]

"Here's to the guy who rules the roost, and to the gal who rules the rooster".

Har, har, har... “I’m a dominating harpy, and my husband is a spineless doormat.” How endearing.

I’m sorry, I just find this so degrading.

*The previous statement is not intended to describe the demeanor or overall character of anyone’s grandparents. Any similarities to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

 

[Doc1]

Pick your version, t's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

Romans?

YUP.

The Christian Bible is a product of the Roman empire.

This is like giving all of the philosophical and spiritual knowledge that humanity has gained up to this point in history to the Department of Homeland security and telling them to write for us a holy text.

smdh

Ancient dogmatic religious texts are as much political as they are spiritual. Religion= Spirituality+Politics

The Gnostic writings were completely left out of the picture b/c it would mean wisdom from family, the spirit, the environment, and democratic and republican ideals would have as much power as the ancient hierarchical systems of control. Oligarchs would no longer remain the only source of legitimate political power if that were the case. (Google "the divine right of kings.")

Any scholar of history knows that the Bible is as much influenced by the OT, which is itself influenced by Hammurabi's Code, which is in turn inspired by the Book of the Dead, which is in turn influenced by the Emerald tablet (and maybe the Avesta oral tradition?)

These are ancient codes of spiritual wisdom, layered with dogmatic hierarchical systems of control, and these have always been in the hands of the elder religious elites. We must understand that this was a letter from an elder of the Christian Church, trying to protect and grow the church in Rome at a precarious time, at that time, it was all politics when both Jew and Christians were under threat of persecution. As such, it should be read that way.
Paul and Civil Obedience in Romans 13:1-7


It's axiomatic that tradesmen, farmers, craftsmen and slaves have no time for any of this.

LOL, whatever you need to tell yourself. You believe whatever you like the Bible is the written word of God.

 

[MisterBeale]

Pick your version, t's quite clear.

"New International Version
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

New Living Translation
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

English Standard Version
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Berean Study Bible
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.

Berean Literal Bible
Let every soul be subject to the authorities being above him. For there is no authority except by God; but those existing are having been instituted by God.

New American Standard Bible
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

King James Bible
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:1

Romans?

YUP.

The Christian Bible is a product of the Roman empire.

This is like giving all of the philosophical and spiritual knowledge that humanity has gained up to this point in history to the Department of Homeland security and telling them to write for us a holy text.

smdh

Ancient dogmatic religious texts are as much political as they are spiritual. Religion= Spirituality+Politics

The Gnostic writings were completely left out of the picture b/c it would mean wisdom from family, the spirit, the environment, and democratic and republican ideals would have as much power as the ancient hierarchical systems of control. Oligarchs would no longer remain the only source of legitimate political power if that were the case. (Google "the divine right of kings.")

Any scholar of history knows that the Bible is as much influenced by the OT, which is itself influenced by Hammurabi's Code, which is in turn inspired by the Book of the Dead, which is in turn influenced by the Emerald tablet (and maybe the Avesta oral tradition?)

These are ancient codes of spiritual wisdom, layered with dogmatic hierarchical systems of control, and these have always been in the hands of the elder religious elites. We must understand that this was a letter from an elder of the Christian Church, trying to protect and grow the church in Rome at a precarious time, at that time, it was all politics when both Jew and Christians were under threat of persecution. As such, it should be read that way.
Paul and Civil Obedience in Romans 13:1-7


It's axiomatic that tradesmen, farmers, craftsmen and slaves have no time for any of this.

LOL, whatever you need to tell yourself. You believe whatever you like the Bible is the written word of God.

I agree with that, but I also know that the words of the creator are written in many other forms in many other places. . .