Punished by Rewards

[Amelia]

What is needed is an alternative to both ways of controlling people through reward and punishment. Even praise can be a verbal bribe that gets people hooked on approval. If a person feels controlled during an experience they will come to remember or view this experience as unpleasurable despite the reward given.

You really are ignoring the human condition...we naturally crave approval, and there is nothing wrong with being inspired by it. Again, not taking it to extremes and everything in balance.

Very well said.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You really are ignoring the human condition...we naturally crave approval, and there is nothing wrong with being inspired by it. Again, not taking it to extremes and everything in balance.

Do you want to foster creativity or obedience?

Knock it off with the tunnel vision, sky...don't pretend that people aren't motivated to exceed by any number of stimuli. You would suck at being part of a sports team.

I'm very interested in Kohn's work. I'd rather see people motivated internally then externally. How about you? You'd rather have power over others or have people empowered to do their best because they love it? I go for the love of it all the time.

I've been part of a sport's team and I don't suck at it. I enjoy it.

 

[Sherry]

In one of Kohn’s examples, children in a small town were given points for every books they checked out of the local library during the summer vacation. The points could be redeemed for a free pizza, in an attempt to encourage reading.

The children in the program did indeed read more books than other children. But after the program ended, when reading no longer paid off in pizza, those children read far fewer books than others. Their own intrinsic desire to read books had been subsumed by the extrinsic reward, and when the pizza went away, so did the motivation.


I am so totally persuaded by this method that I asked my wife to take down the treasure box charts we keep for our kids at home. According to the treasure chest method, if Avery is good by doing her chores and reading books, she gets to advance a square until she eventually reaches a treasure chest square and gets a prize from the dollar store. Seems to work well, but not really. She despises cleaning and it’s always a big struggle.

Today we were doing some cleaning and I made no mention of a reward. The only reward was that I tried to make cleaning fun by cleaning beside her and talking with her. She was Cinderella mopping the floor and loved it. After we finished cleaning one bathroom, she asked if we could clean the other.


Punishing by Rewards — Motivational Techniques That Don’t Work | I'd Rather Be Writing

Now you're just being ignorant. If a teacher had the choice, obviously they would want to be able to foster a natural love of books/reading, but that is not a realistic expectation for every single child. So, if offering a simple reward means some students will read more, which in turn will expand their knowledge/vocabulary, which as a result makes future endeavors more successful, then so be it.

 

[Sherry]

Do you want to foster creativity or obedience?

Knock it off with the tunnel vision, sky...don't pretend that people aren't motivated to exceed by any number of stimuli. You would suck at being part of a sports team.

I'm very interested in Kohn's work. I'd rather see people motivated internally then externally. How about you? You'd rather have power over others or have people empowered to do their best because they love it? I go for the love of it all the time.

I've been part of a sport's team and I don't suck at it. I enjoy it.

Anytime Sky is "very interested" in something, that means that her mind has become closed to any other alternatives. You don't want a discussion/debate...you just want people to see it your way.

 

[Sky Dancer]

In one of Kohn’s examples, children in a small town were given points for every books they checked out of the local library during the summer vacation. The points could be redeemed for a free pizza, in an attempt to encourage reading.

The children in the program did indeed read more books than other children. But after the program ended, when reading no longer paid off in pizza, those children read far fewer books than others. Their own intrinsic desire to read books had been subsumed by the extrinsic reward, and when the pizza went away, so did the motivation.


I am so totally persuaded by this method that I asked my wife to take down the treasure box charts we keep for our kids at home. According to the treasure chest method, if Avery is good by doing her chores and reading books, she gets to advance a square until she eventually reaches a treasure chest square and gets a prize from the dollar store. Seems to work well, but not really. She despises cleaning and it’s always a big struggle.

Today we were doing some cleaning and I made no mention of a reward. The only reward was that I tried to make cleaning fun by cleaning beside her and talking with her. She was Cinderella mopping the floor and loved it. After we finished cleaning one bathroom, she asked if we could clean the other.


Punishing by Rewards — Motivational Techniques That Don’t Work | I'd Rather Be Writing

Now you're just being ignorant. If a teacher had the choice, obviously they would want to be able to foster a natural love of books/reading, but that is not a realistic expectation for every single child. So, if offering a simple reward means some students will read more, which in turn will expand their knowledge/vocabulary, which as a result makes future endeavors more successful, then so be it.

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

 

[Sherry]

In one of Kohn’s examples, children in a small town were given points for every books they checked out of the local library during the summer vacation. The points could be redeemed for a free pizza, in an attempt to encourage reading.

The children in the program did indeed read more books than other children. But after the program ended, when reading no longer paid off in pizza, those children read far fewer books than others. Their own intrinsic desire to read books had been subsumed by the extrinsic reward, and when the pizza went away, so did the motivation.


I am so totally persuaded by this method that I asked my wife to take down the treasure box charts we keep for our kids at home. According to the treasure chest method, if Avery is good by doing her chores and reading books, she gets to advance a square until she eventually reaches a treasure chest square and gets a prize from the dollar store. Seems to work well, but not really. She despises cleaning and it’s always a big struggle.

Today we were doing some cleaning and I made no mention of a reward. The only reward was that I tried to make cleaning fun by cleaning beside her and talking with her. She was Cinderella mopping the floor and loved it. After we finished cleaning one bathroom, she asked if we could clean the other.


Punishing by Rewards — Motivational Techniques That Don’t Work | I'd Rather Be Writing

Now you're just being ignorant. If a teacher had the choice, obviously they would want to be able to foster a natural love of books/reading, but that is not a realistic expectation for every single child. So, if offering a simple reward means some students will read more, which in turn will expand their knowledge/vocabulary, which as a result makes future endeavors more successful, then so be it.

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Liar.

 

[Amelia]

The OP actually makes an interesting point. If not carried too far.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Now you're just being ignorant. If a teacher had the choice, obviously they would want to be able to foster a natural love of books/reading, but that is not a realistic expectation for every single child. So, if offering a simple reward means some students will read more, which in turn will expand their knowledge/vocabulary, which as a result makes future endeavors more successful, then so be it.

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Liar.

I'm so sorry that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You'd rather resort to name calling.

Sad.

 

[alan1]

An elderly man harassed by taunts of neighborhood children devises a scheme. He offers to pay each child a dollar to return on Tuesday and yell insults again. Of course, the children show up eagerly and receive the money, but he tells them he will only pay them 25 cents tomorrow. When they returned on Wednesday, he paid them their quarters and informed them that Thursday's rate would be a penny. Forget it, they said, and never returned to taunt him again.

You can make people do something by paying them but you can't make them want to do something by paying them.

We are talking about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

If I pay you a dollar per post today, then a quarter per post on Monday, than offer a penny per post on Tuesday, will you go away?

 

[Sky Dancer]

The OP actually makes an interesting point. If not carried too far.

I've seen the OP premise work even with prisoners. Ever consider why someone repeatedly goes to prison for the same crime?

It must be meeting some need. How can you teach a person to meet their needs at less cost to themselves and others?

 

[Sky Dancer]

An elderly man harassed by taunts of neighborhood children devises a scheme. He offers to pay each child a dollar to return on Tuesday and yell insults again. Of course, the children show up eagerly and receive the money, but he tells them he will only pay them 25 cents tomorrow. When they returned on Wednesday, he paid them their quarters and informed them that Thursday's rate would be a penny. Forget it, they said, and never returned to taunt him again.

You can make people do something by paying them but you can't make them want to do something by paying them.

We are talking about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

If I pay you a dollar per post today, then a quarter per post on Monday, than offer a penny per post on Tuesday, will you go away?

Tell you what. I'll put you on ignore. Then you'll be out of my sight.

 

[Amelia]

Sherry had a good point also, more than one actually. But specifically this: a hard-to-motivate child might benefit from a short term boost to pick up the skills they need which will facilitate their other endeavors.

 

[Sherry]

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Liar.

I'm so sorry that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You'd rather resort to name calling.

Sad.

You're either a phony, or attempting some sarcasm.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Liar.

I'm so sorry that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You'd rather resort to name calling.

Sad.

You're either a phony, or attempting some sarcasm.

I just want to discuss the topic without name calling. Try it Sherry. It makes posting much more enjoyable.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I disagree. There are too many factors that influence behavior, school success, and ultimately job satisfaction.

We live in a competitive world. Teaching children that they will be rewarded for good grades and good behavior is important. Eliminating rewards will only benefit those who never receive them.

And even if the only benefit is "temporary obedience", as a classroom teacher I will say "I'll take that".

Bit of a knee jerk reaction there.

My experience is that the best way to motivate someone is to teach them good habits. If rewards worked the way you think everyone would be completely good just for a chance to get into heaven.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sherry had a good point also, more than one actually. But specifically this: a hard-to-motivate child might benefit from a short term boost to pick up the skills they need which will facilitate their other endeavors.

I can understand that it is difficult to consider new ideas. This is a new idea. Carrot and stick do not produce creativity.

Intrinsic motivation does.

 

[Sherry]

I'm so sorry that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You'd rather resort to name calling.

Sad.

You're either a phony, or attempting some sarcasm.

I just want to discuss the topic without name calling. Try it Sherry. It makes posting much more enjoyable.

I'm having loads of fun...I don't post for your enjoyment.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The point is that reward and punishment, carrot and stick, only works for the short term. Non-violent communication works much more effectively. You teach a person how to get their needs met with less cost.

You teach people to be selfish and that results in good behavior? How does that work?

 

[Sky Dancer]

You're either a phony, or attempting some sarcasm.

I just want to discuss the topic without name calling. Try it Sherry. It makes posting much more enjoyable.

I'm having loads of fun...I don't post for your enjoyment.

I post for my enjoyment. I don't enjoy name calling. If that's your posting strategy, I'll adjust and just stop talking to you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Have to agree with that. But the simple fact is that only one person/side/team wins, so competition is not about the reward, it is about the challenge.