Punished by Rewards

[Sky Dancer]

The point is that reward and punishment, carrot and stick, only works for the short term. Non-violent communication works much more effectively. You teach a person how to get their needs met with less cost.

You teach people to be selfish and that results in good behavior? How does that work?

No, it's not about teaching people to be selfish, it's about teaching people to be self-motivated.

Some of us are self-motivated out of altruism. It feels good to us to do things for others benefit.

That beats being told to do it, or forced to do it, or threatened to do it. Doing things out of love rather than fear, out of interest and curiosity and joy of the challenge.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Consider the fact that what you just described is called a con.

 

[Toro]

What do you mean "doesn't work over the long term" Sky? Over the past 200 years, this system has created the most prosperous advanced society the world has ever seen.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Consider the fact that what you just described is called a con.

It's a teaching story.

 

[Sherry]

I just want to discuss the topic without name calling. Try it Sherry. It makes posting much more enjoyable.

I'm having loads of fun...I don't post for your enjoyment.

I post for my enjoyment. I don't enjoy name calling. If that's your posting strategy, I'll adjust and just stop talking to you.

Yeah, we'll see how long that lasts.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Imagine a world where you actually found out what need a person was trying to fulfill by an unskillful action and teaching that person how he can better meet his needs with less cost.

It's time to stop treating human beings like lab rats.

You are linking a pretty solid study about the dangers of rewarding people for trivial successes with an absurd theory that people are better off without any reward at all.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm having loads of fun...I don't post for your enjoyment.

I post for my enjoyment. I don't enjoy name calling. If that's your posting strategy, I'll adjust and just stop talking to you.

Yeah, we'll see how long that lasts.

I will only do it if you decide you'd rather be nasty than discuss the topic. It's up to you.

 

[Amelia]

Sherry had a good point also, more than one actually. But specifically this: a hard-to-motivate child might benefit from a short term boost to pick up the skills they need which will facilitate their other endeavors.

I can understand that it is difficult to consider new ideas. This is a new idea. Carrot and stick do not produce creativity.

Intrinsic motivation does.

Difficult to consider new ideas?

For you it appears to be difficult to consider multiple ideas at once.

Different children respond to different incentives, and different ways of nurturing. Different adults do also. You present an interesting idea. We're taking the easy way out if we send our children off to library programs and don't ourselves model the benefits of reading in our own daily lives.

But that doesn't mean there is not a place in society for the kind of rewards you eschew.

I don't think your topic received what some would call a "fair" hearing. However, it did receive the hearing which people have been conditioned to give you due to your past tunnel vision and dead horse beating.

 

[Sherry]

I post for my enjoyment. I don't enjoy name calling. If that's your posting strategy, I'll adjust and just stop talking to you.

Yeah, we'll see how long that lasts.

I will only do it if you decide you'd rather be nasty than discuss the topic. It's up to you.

Oh please, I've been very gentle with you...I have a much more nasty and vile side that I've been holding back because I know that you're a sensitive soul.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sherry had a good point also, more than one actually. But specifically this: a hard-to-motivate child might benefit from a short term boost to pick up the skills they need which will facilitate their other endeavors.

I can understand that it is difficult to consider new ideas. This is a new idea. Carrot and stick do not produce creativity.

Intrinsic motivation does.

Difficult to consider new ideas?

For you it appears to be difficult to consider multiple ideas at once.

Different children respond to different incentives, and different ways of nurturing. Different adults do also. You present an interesting idea. We're taking the easy way out if we send our children off to library programs and don't ourselves model the benefits of reading in our own daily lives.

But that doesn't mean there is not a place in society for the kind of rewards you eschew.

I don't think your topic received what some would call a "fair" hearing. However, it did receive the hearing which people have been conditioned to give you due to your past tunnel vision and dead horse beating.

This topic is about Kohn's theory on motivation.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yeah, we'll see how long that lasts.

I will only do it if you decide you'd rather be nasty than discuss the topic. It's up to you.

Oh please, I've been very gentle with you...I have a much more nasty and vile side that I've been holding back because I know that you're a sensitive soul.

How patronizing of you. I'll just put you on ignore anyway Sherry.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Anything taken to the extreme in either direction can become unhealthy and/or unrealistic. We shouldn't ignore the competitive spirit that is part of our human nature, and that which motivates it to produce the best results. Everything in balance.

Bingo.

The article in the OP was about the dangers of giving out rewards to everyone because they meet goals. I had a chart full of gold stars in 3rd grade when I memorized the multiplication tables, and I liked that, but it sure felt a lot less like an achievement when everyone else ended up with the exact same thing.

It also did not teach me a thing about math.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wouldn't you rather have someone working for intrinsic rewards? That's where all innovation comes from. Creativity doesn't occur with someone beating you with a stick or shoving a carrot in your face.

That depends on the carrot.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Self-motivated kids achieve more, perceive themselves to be more competent, and are less anxious. A wide body of research shows that when kids find an activity or task that they inherently like doing—such as reading or helping another kid—and then an adult comes along and starts offering rewards for doing that activity, the external rewards have an undermining effect, making them like doing the activity less.
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/raising_happiness/post/punished_by_rewards

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do you want to foster creativity or obedience?

Knock it off with the tunnel vision, sky...don't pretend that people aren't motivated to exceed by any number of stimuli. You would suck at being part of a sports team.

I'm very interested in Kohn's work. I'd rather see people motivated internally then externally. How about you? You'd rather have power over others or have people empowered to do their best because they love it? I go for the love of it all the time.

I've been part of a sport's team and I don't suck at it. I enjoy it.

Internal carrots are still carrots, which just proves how absurd it is to attempt to apply Kohn's findings the way you are.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

An elderly man harassed by taunts of neighborhood children devises a scheme. He offers to pay each child a dollar to return on Tuesday and yell insults again. Of course, the children show up eagerly and receive the money, but he tells them he will only pay them 25 cents tomorrow. When they returned on Wednesday, he paid them their quarters and informed them that Thursday's rate would be a penny. Forget it, they said, and never returned to taunt him again.

You can make people do something by paying them but you can't make them want to do something by paying them.

We are talking about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

If I pay you a dollar per post today, then a quarter per post on Monday, than offer a penny per post on Tuesday, will you go away?

Probably, but she will just come back again.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Knock it off with the tunnel vision, sky...don't pretend that people aren't motivated to exceed by any number of stimuli. You would suck at being part of a sports team.

I'm very interested in Kohn's work. I'd rather see people motivated internally then externally. How about you? You'd rather have power over others or have people empowered to do their best because they love it? I go for the love of it all the time.

I've been part of a sport's team and I don't suck at it. I enjoy it.

Internal carrots are still carrots, which just proves how absurd it is to attempt to apply Kohn's findings the way you are.

Would you rather grow human beings who are self-motivated or who have to be continually manipulated to do anything by reward and punishment?

I choose intrinsic motivation every time. I started this thread out of the joy of sharing a new idea. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I heard about this way of thinking from Marshall Rosenberg who teaches Non-Violent Communication.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The point is that reward and punishment, carrot and stick, only works for the short term. Non-violent communication works much more effectively. You teach a person how to get their needs met with less cost.

You teach people to be selfish and that results in good behavior? How does that work?

No, it's not about teaching people to be selfish, it's about teaching people to be self-motivated.

Some of us are self-motivated out of altruism. It feels good to us to do things for others benefit.

That beats being told to do it, or forced to do it, or threatened to do it. Doing things out of love rather than fear, out of interest and curiosity and joy of the challenge.

Self motivation is a form of self reward. It is no more effective in the long term than any other method of rewarding people for desirable behavior. The real secret to motivating people is it cannot be done. If it could no one would be making money as a motivational speaker because everyone would have been motivated by the first guy.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You teach people to be selfish and that results in good behavior? How does that work?

No, it's not about teaching people to be selfish, it's about teaching people to be self-motivated.

Some of us are self-motivated out of altruism. It feels good to us to do things for others benefit.

That beats being told to do it, or forced to do it, or threatened to do it. Doing things out of love rather than fear, out of interest and curiosity and joy of the challenge.

Self motivation is a form of self reward. It is no more effective in the long term than any other method of rewarding people for desirable behavior. The real secret to motivating people is it cannot be done.

Was Einstein motivated by extrinsic or intrinsic rewards?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Consider the fact that what you just described is called a con.

It's a teaching story.

You are entirely correct, it is a teaching story. The problem is you are missing the lesson.