Prop 8 in California

[Coloradomtnman]

Why? Why is gay marriage the degeneration of society? Do you have any rational reasoning behind that statement or is just something your church told you to believe? Is that you just personally don't like homosexual people?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why? Why is gay marriage the degeneration of society? Do you have any rational reasoning behind that statement or is just something your church told you to believe? Is that you just personally don't like homosexual people?

Well, I'm certainly glad to see that you asked with an open mind, out of honest curiosity to understand the points of view of others, rather than telegraphing your own preconceived notions built directly into the question.

 

[Truthspeaker]

That is a good question. There are two reasons why I don't approve of homosexuality. the first is religious. I have done my research on my religion and found it to be true and logical in every sense. Not just followed blindly. In this day and age we need to be willing to question everything. I questioned my religion, and I got answers. The first answer is that God said so in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality was an abomination, meaning detestable.

The second reason is pure logic. In addition to most people cringing at the thought of homosexuality and thinking it is detestable, there are more logical reasons as well, for instance so many great and powerful societies like Greece, Roman Empire, Babylonian Empire, Hitler's Germany(yes I know all about effeminate homosexuals in concentration camps, but there is a lot more to it than you think) and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah all coincidentally ravaged by homosexuality before their destruction. Certainly it is not the only reason for a city or nation to be destroyed but it definitely seems to be a contributing factor. I would prefer our country not to be next. In this day and age it seems as though people are so obsessed with sex and their next orgasm, whether gay or straight that we won't be able to see the coming terrorist attacks and armies waiting to destroy us.
See Radical Islam and our porous borders. I think we spend more money on gay parades and pride months than we do on protecting our national security and borders.
There is my reason and you are free to disagree with it.

 

[Oscar Wao]

Why should we decide on this issue democratically? I thought our Founders HATED the process of those Athenian perdedores?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Why should we decide on this issue democratically? I thought our Founders HATED the process of those Athenian perdedores?

how would you rather have it decided?

 

[Oscar Wao]

how would you rather have it decided?

How our founders wanted it.

Which is the "republic" way.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why should we decide on this issue democratically? I thought our Founders HATED the process of those Athenian perdedores?

I have no idea what you intended to mean by this, but the answer to "why should we decide this democratically" is "because that's the law, Bubba". Clearly, they DIDN'T hate having things decided by votes, or the law wouldn't specify deciding them by votes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How our founders wanted it.

Which is the "republic" way.

Insofar as the law says to decide it the way we are, in fact, deciding it, I'm curious as to what you think the Founders wanted instead, and WHY you think they wanted it. Am I missing someplace where the law specifies a different method?

 

[DiveCon]

How our founders wanted it.

Which is the "republic" way.

the founders allowed for referendum
and states voting for or against constitutional amendments
there was nothing unconstitutional in having the vote

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well the vote of the people is the best form of government unless Christ was reigning as a monarch.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

That is a good question. There are two reasons why I don't approve of homosexuality. the first is religious. I have done my research on my religion and found it to be true and logical in every sense. Not just followed blindly. In this day and age we need to be willing to question everything. I questioned my religion, and I got answers. The first answer is that God said so in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality was an abomination, meaning detestable.

The second reason is pure logic. In addition to most people cringing at the thought of homosexuality and thinking it is detestable, there are more logical reasons as well, for instance so many great and powerful societies like Greece, Roman Empire, Babylonian Empire, Hitler's Germany(yes I know all about effeminate homosexuals in concentration camps, but there is a lot more to it than you think) and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah all coincidentally ravaged by homosexuality before their destruction. Certainly it is not the only reason for a city or nation to be destroyed but it definitely seems to be a contributing factor. I would prefer our country not to be next. In this day and age it seems as though people are so obsessed with sex and their next orgasm, whether gay or straight that we won't be able to see the coming terrorist attacks and armies waiting to destroy us.
See Radical Islam and our porous borders. I think we spend more money on gay parades and pride months than we do on protecting our national security and borders.
There is my reason and you are free to disagree with it.

Those are not researched, scientific answers. Quoting the Bible is not scientific. There isn't any scientific logic behind religion. That's why believers have "faith". Despite every rational reason not to believe, they believe anyway. How can you even begin to claim that you have researched the Christian faith when you've read the Bible and other Christian faith-based sources of information for your research. You believe because you want to believe. Period.

And, where did you get that homosexuality was a contributing factor to the Third Reich and its demise? Or Greece, Rome, or Babylon? Achaeological, and historic research has shown that there were many contributing factors to the decline of those ancient empires, and none of that research concluded that homosexuality was any of those factors. And the Third Reich was destroyed because the Nazis used terror to rule, uniting most of the freeworld against them, and then attacked Russia while still fighting a war in western Europe. And then declared war against the US on top of all of that. And that's just one of the many reasons. However, Hitler didn't try to conquer the world because he was gay. Rampant homosexuality didn't lead Germany into allowing Hitler to wrest power from the German parliament. And to quote the Bible to me and cite it as logical and where you got your "scientific" information for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is the same as someone quoting the Bhagavad Gita to you and citing it as scientific and logical for reincarnation.

Using religion and the self-righteous claim that your beliefs are the right beliefs, however, IS a contributing factor to the continued oppression of people around the world. You think its wrong for Islamic fundamentalists to lock their women away and hide them in veils and bikuras? I think its wrong that Christians won't allow other people to live the way they want to live despite that those peoples' lifestyles have nothing to do with the Christians and cause no harm. Just because you BELIEVE something does not make it true.

Homosexuals are gay because THEY ARE. They don't choose it. Do you feel sexually attracted to men? I don't. I don't fight daily the desire to have sex with men. I'm attracted to the opposite sex. Homosexuals don't fight daily the urge to have sex with the opposite sex: because they're homosexuals - they are attracted to their own genders. It isn't curable despite what your church tells you. Leave them alone, you big bully.

Believe whatever wingnut, crazy, fundamentalist Christian beliefs you want, but don't make the rest of us live by your beliefs. They aren't hurting anyone. And homosexuals won't destory the United Sates. Germany and Japan didn't and they had powerful war machines and millions of soldiers. The USSR didn't. China can't. C'mon! Are all the butch lesbians going to take up arms against the government, while all the effeminate gay men are nurses to tend to the wounded dike soldiers? Or will God strike us down for allowing people to live their own lives? I'm sure he's up there in heaven just scrutinizing every thought and action of every human being on the planet and, for whatever reason, he doesn't like them gays and he's gonna send'em all stright to Hell to burn for all of Eternity even though he loves them, and he's merciful, and he's the all-powerful, omnipotent ruler of the Universe and can change the rules if he wants to but still he creates gay people.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well the vote of the people is the best form of government unless Christ was reigning as a monarch.

Not with people like you voting.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

the founders allowed for referendum
and states voting for or against constitutional amendments
there was nothing unconstitutional in having the vote

But it IS unconstitutional to oppress people and make them 2nd class citizens despite whatever you want to believe.

 

[Shogun]

Lok at what the acceptance homosexuality did to THIS poor bastard after his marriage was made worthless by gay marraige!

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Insofar as the law says to decide it the way we are, in fact, deciding it, I'm curious as to what you think the Founders wanted instead, and WHY you think they wanted it. Am I missing someplace where the law specifies a different method?

I can tell that you are one of those people who needs boundaries to feel safe and secure. Whatever the law says you'll abide by because it makes you feel good. And if you'd been in 1930s Germany you wouldn't have lifted a finger to help the Jews. Because it was law that they be oppressed and systematically eradicated from Europe.

Just because most people who voted voted against allowing homosexuals the right to marry doesn't mean they're the just cause. It just makes that cause into law and just because its law doesn't make it right.

Think for yourself.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not with people like you voting.

Right. The only people who deserve to have a say in government are the ones who agree with you. If we are going to INSIST on letting all those fools who are so dense as to actually disagree with you think that they ALSO have a right to a say in their country, well, then we're just better off forgetting that whole "freedom" thing and letting the wisest among us - in other words, those like you - rule us in a benevolent dictatorship.

I can see you're just going to be ALL kinds of impressive around here.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But it IS unconstitutional to oppress people and make them 2nd class citizens despite whatever you want to believe.

I'm so glad we have you around to bring up this utterly pointless and childish attempt at emotional blackmail yet again, because God knows, we probably just didn't realize how deep and insightful and important it was the first fifty thousand times it was brought up. While you're at it, why don't you be REALLY mature and meaningful and call us all "mean poopyheads"?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I can tell that you are one of those people who needs boundaries to feel safe and secure. Whatever the law says you'll abide by because it makes you feel good. And if you'd been in 1930s Germany you wouldn't have lifted a finger to help the Jews. Because it was law that they be oppressed and systematically eradicated from Europe.

Just because most people who voted voted against allowing homosexuals the right to marry doesn't mean they're the just cause. It just makes that cause into law and just because its law doesn't make it right.

Think for yourself.

I can tell that you are one of those people who thinks that boundaries only apply to the ignorant, unwashed masses, in order to keep them away from YOU. You, of course, are above all of that, and therefore only respect the law when it doesn't inconvenience you, and can dispense with it when your behavior is only bothering all those unimportant peons - ie. the people who are stupid enough to disagree with you.

And, of course, we can never have too much of the brilliant, thought-provoking cry of "Nazi! You're just like Hitler!" Because that always settles the debate.

Just because you think homosexuals should have the legal right to "marry" doesn't make that right or just. And shockingly, one can easily think for oneself and STILL believe that you are wrong and an ignorant, self-absorbed me-monkey.

You just showed up on my radar in the last two or three days, you have not ONCE posted anything that was not amazingly arrogant and obnoxious and lacking in any substance whatsoever. So tell me now. Are you planning on contributing anything that I can't get from my 13-year-old, or should I avoid the Christmas rush and ignore your puerile ass now?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Not with people like you voting.

It is people like you who would take away my vote if you had the chance to. I don't know what form of government you would rather have than a vote of the people. Using your argument, why should the minority, subdue the vast majority to something they don't want.
We don't oppress anyone. We even allow homsexuals their lifestyle. That is as liberal as we want to become. I am sure you think that because what you believe is right that you couldn't possibly be wrong. But science has failed to disprove the existence of a god and is always changing end evolving. Scientists think they know so much but really know very little. Just like revelation says,"Men shall be ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth in the latter day."
Look at the great order of the universe, the planets, their motion, their intricate detailings and all the elements that combine in this perfect little sphere(and yes I know the earth is not a true sphere) we live in. The organization of nature and the balance thereof all testify that there is a God who created it.
It is highly illogical for me to believe that these simple evidences came about by chance. Since it is so obvious that there is a God then, wouldn't we want to follow his plan for us? Homosexuality is not part of that plan. god did not create them to pervert their hormones. There is no proof that people were born this way because there is none. The proof is in the parts they were born with. The perversion can come from exposure and experimenting and brainwashing by molesters at a young age and many other factors but children as they are born are not sexually inclined. They don't even think about it. It is all conditioning.

 

[Steerpike]

Since it is so obvious that there is a God then, wouldn't we want to follow his plan for us?

It is hardly obvious. And your comment about 'failing to disprove God' is not instructive, because a negative proof of that sort cannot be accomplished to begin with. But just because you can't supply a negative proof does not mean you've established the positive proposition.

For example, science cannot disprove the existence of an underwater unicorn swimming around under the ice on Europa. Does that mean, then, that such creatures exist? Of course not.

Similarly, a failure to disprove god does not equate to proof of his existence.

Science deals in terms of positive proofs, not negative proofs.

If god exists, science may be able to prove it some day. But it will never be able to disprove it, even if he doesn't exist.