Proof of AGW fraud

[Wyatt earp]

And nothing has happened. The north pole is still frozen as is Antarctica

Wrong.
Every summer, ships now traverse the Northwest Passage.
Are you claiming they don't?
Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016 | NOAA Climate.gov

Fresh melt off from Greenland is starting to submerge the Gulf Stream and sent Europe off in a mini ice age.
The Antarctic ice shelf is radidly calving.
Mountain tops are becoming bare.

The changes are dramatic and obvious to anyone.

There were subs surfaced at an ice free north pole in the 50s. Furthermore prior to satellite data the ice cover at the north pole was not known. But you go on pretending

Yawn

Google Image Result for http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/uss-skate-open-water.jpg

Absolute lie.
There was no open water at the North Pole in the 1960s.
The image of open water was on the way TOO the North Pole.
There are people who took snow mobiles to the North Pole, in the summer, even after the 1950s. They could not have done that if there was ANY possible risk of even a trace of puddles, much less open water.
In fact, it took the USS Natilus days to find a thin vent in the ice so they could break through to the surface.

People always knew what the ice coverage was over the North Pole, because ships were always probing, and natives always traversed for hunting purposes. And you do NOT need satellites. We had lots of planes in the 1950s, which vastly superior technology than one can put into a tiny satellite.

View attachment 263950

Clearly in the image that is NOT open water.
Those are melt off pools on top of thicker ice that would prevent any ship passage.
Clearly the submarines looked for thin ice and punched up through ice that still covered the Arctic Ocean.
While things were already warming up from AGW since 1840, in 1987 there clearly was still no open passage through the Arctic ice.

What does that have to do with the picture at the North Pole?

 

[Frannie]

I proved the pole was ice free in 1958

Next

You proved you are a liar.
The 1958 log by the captain of the USS Nautilus said the ice at the pole was too thick to surface at all.
The 1959 voyage from the USS Skate also said the pole was NOT open then either, but at least he was able to break through it.

Grow up dork
USS Skate SSN-578 First submarine to surface at the North Pole

FIRST SUBMARINE TO SURFACE AT THE NORTH POLE

Information below was copied from the USS SKATE page of Joel Jensen

More SKATE info via SUBNET



USS SKATE (SSN-578) History

USS SKATE (SSN-578) was the third submarine to bear this name and the third nuclear powered submarine constructed by the United States. Her namesake in World War 2 conducted seven war patrols and later served as a target ship for the atomic bomb test at Bikini in 1946.

The keel of the SSN-578 was laid down on July 21, 1955, at the Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics corporation in Groton, CT. The ship was launched May 16, 1957, by Mrs. Lewis L. Strauss, whose husband was then chairman of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. SKATE was commissioned seven months ahead of schedule on December 23, 1957, under the command of Commander James F. Calvert, USN.

During the first months after joining the Submarine Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, SKATE completed a shakedown cruise to northern European ports and participated in a fleet exercise that included a thirty-one day period of complete submergence, sealed off from the earth's atmosphere.

In August 1958, SKATE made her first cruise to the Arctic where she operated under the ice packs for ten days. During this period she surfaced nine times through openings in the ice, became the second ship to reach the North Pole, and successfully navigated over 2,400 miles beneath the ice. On her return to the United States, the ship was awarded the Navy Unit Commendation for "... braving the hazards of the polar ice pack..."

In March 1959, SKATE again headed north, this time to pioneer arctic submarine operations during the period of extreme cold and maximum ice thickness. In twelve days under the pack, SKATE forced her was up through the thin ice to the surface ten times and steamed over 3,000 miles. In a dramatic high of this cruise, on March 17, 1959, SKATE became the first submarine to surface at the North Pole... Where the ashes of famed explorer Sir Hubert Wilkins were committed to the arctic waste. On her return to port, SKATE was awarded a Bronze Star in lieu of a second Navy Unit Commendation for demonstrating "...for the first time the ability of submarines to operate in and under the arctic ice in the dead of winter..."

From January to August 1961, SKATE underwent her first overhaul at Electric Boat Division, Groton, Connecticut. Skate's reactor was refueled for the first time after more than three years of operations.

In July 1962, SKATE again charted a course from New London, Connecticut to the North Pole, while the USS SEADRAGON (SSN-584) departed Pearl Harbor, Hawaii and headed North. This trip was marked by the rendezvous of SKATE and SEADRAGON in the arctic ice region. After the historic meeting, SKATE and SEADRAGON operated together for over a week. One operation included a double surfacing at the North Pole.

SKATE underwent he second regular overhaul from April 1965 to September 1967 at Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Portsmouth, Virginia after nearly four years of Atlantic Fleet operations. This overhaul included her second nuclear refueling in seven years of operations.

SKATE was assigned to Submarine Development Group TWO in January 1968 and participated in the development of new tactics and equipment.

SKATE deployed to the Mediterranean in October 1968 to participate in NATO exercises.

In March and April 1969, SKATE returned to the Arctic to conduct submerged operations under the polar ice pack in company with PARGO (SSN-650) and WHALE (SSN-638). During this trip new concepts of submarine polar tactics were researched. SKATE received Meritorious Unit Commendations for her participation in the 1970 SQUEEZE PLAY exercises and for her arctic operations with HAMMERHEAD.

SKATE underwent her third refueling overhaul from February 1971 to September 1973 at Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Portsmouth, Virginia. After completing overhaul, SKATE was assigned to Submarine Squadron Two and home-ported at the Naval Submarine base, New London, Connecticut.

Early in September 1974, SKATE left New London to participate in a major NATO exercise in the North Atlantic and then continued on to the Mediterranean in October and returned to New London in late January 1975.

During 1974 SKATE was assigned to Command Second Fleet in evaluation of the Interim Sea Control Ship. During April and May 1975, SKATE was again involved in tactical development as she successfully conducted SSN swimmer operation while participating in exercise SOLID SHIELD. SKATE's anti-submarine warfare capabilities were lauded when she was awarded Submarine Squadron TWO ASW "A" in July 1975.

Early in September 1975 SKATE left New London to participate in operation UNITAS XVI, being the first nuclear ship to participate to participate in this annual exercise. SKATE toured ports in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Trinidad, and Venezuela and returned to New London, Connecticut in early 1975.

In April 1976, SKATE deployed to the Mediterranean. After deployment, SKATE conducted various exercises including the training of SEAL teams, Special Forces, and Marine Force Reconnaissance Troops.

On October 17, 1977, SKATE left New London to join Submarine Squadron SEVEN in the Pacific Fleet. SKATE arrived at her new homeport, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii on November 24, 1977.

SKATE underwent her fourth overhaul from February 1978 to July 1979 at Naval Shipyard, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

In September 1979, SKATE deployed to EASTPAC for a shakedown cruise and participation in Fleet Exercise 2-79. Since that time she participated in RIMPAC 1980, CNO Special Projects, ASW Exercises and mine-laying operations Type Training.

In July 1980, SKATE made her first Western Pacific Deployment. She operated with units of the U.S. Seventh Fleet and Allied Navies and returned to port on December 23, 1980, the 23rd anniversary of her commissioning.

SKATE received the 1980 Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Fleet Golden Anchor Award for enlisted retention excellence and the 1981 Commander Submarine Squadron SEVEN Damage Control "DC" and Supply "E" awards.

SKATE made her second Western Pacific deployment in 1982, her third in 1983-1984 and her fourth and final in 1985.

SKATE was decommissioned in 1986 and was recycled in 1993.

Are you an idiot?
Clearly your own post and quote says the USS Skate had to break through ice to get to the surface. There was no open water back then at the pole.
There is now.

Are you handicapped

Are you an idiot?
Look in the background.
Do you see open water?
No, you see solid snow and ice.
That means these 2 subs shown broke through ice and when to a pool of melt off on top of the ice.
If that were open water, there would be clear water as far as the eye could see.
But that is assuming this even was at the north pole, of which there is no evidence. Images can be anywhere. What one needs is a logs. And all the logs we have seen on wiki say they all had to break through thick standing ice.

You are a delusional fool this is March at 40 below zero
skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

 

[Frannie]

Wrong.
Every summer, ships now traverse the Northwest Passage.
Are you claiming they don't?
Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016 | NOAA Climate.gov

Fresh melt off from Greenland is starting to submerge the Gulf Stream and sent Europe off in a mini ice age.
The Antarctic ice shelf is radidly calving.
Mountain tops are becoming bare.

The changes are dramatic and obvious to anyone.

There were subs surfaced at an ice free north pole in the 50s. Furthermore prior to satellite data the ice cover at the north pole was not known. But you go on pretending

Yawn

Google Image Result for http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/uss-skate-open-water.jpg

Absolute lie.
There was no open water at the North Pole in the 1960s.
The image of open water was on the way TOO the North Pole.
There are people who took snow mobiles to the North Pole, in the summer, even after the 1950s. They could not have done that if there was ANY possible risk of even a trace of puddles, much less open water.
In fact, it took the USS Natilus days to find a thin vent in the ice so they could break through to the surface.

People always knew what the ice coverage was over the North Pole, because ships were always probing, and natives always traversed for hunting purposes. And you do NOT need satellites. We had lots of planes in the 1950s, which vastly superior technology than one can put into a tiny satellite.

View attachment 263950

Clearly in the image that is NOT open water.
Those are melt off pools on top of thicker ice that would prevent any ship passage.
Clearly the submarines looked for thin ice and punched up through ice that still covered the Arctic Ocean.
While things were already warming up from AGW since 1840, in 1987 there clearly was still no open passage through the Arctic ice.

What does that have to do with the picture at the North Pole?

That is the North Pole in March before the Summer thaw


skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

 

[Wyatt earp]

Clearly in the image that is NOT open water.
Those are melt off pools on top of thicker ice that would prevent any ship passage.
Clearly the submarines looked for thin ice and punched up through ice that still covered the Arctic Ocean.
While things were already warming up from AGW since 1840, in 1987 there clearly was still no open passage through the Arctic ice.

The subs surfaced at the geographic north pole, get over it you are a religious fool of the climate cult

Yes subs can surface though several feet of ice at the North Pole.
So what?
It was not open water, and now it is.
That is called a difference.
See how that works?

Only a child would not remember the images of the 1950s Arctic summer expeditions.

Look kid there are photos of the OPEN WATER

You really are not that bright are you?

I already found the actual description of what you are claiming is the USS Skate that the North Pole in 1959, and proved that the image was NOT at the North Pole.

I am not going to look it up again and again post the correct caption.
You look it up.

LOL like Al Gore proved that all the North Pole ice would be melted in 2010 and no child would ever see snow

Seriously kid you are mentally ill and delusional if you think you can recreate history

There is also video of the skate surfacing at the North Pole in March at the end of winter when the ice is at its thickest

skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

But you stay there in denial

 

[Rigby5]

Absolute lie.
There was no open water at the North Pole in the 1960s.
The image of open water was on the way TOO the North Pole.
There are people who took snow mobiles to the North Pole, in the summer, even after the 1950s. They could not have done that if there was ANY possible risk of even a trace of puddles, much less open water.
In fact, it took the USS Natilus days to find a thin vent in the ice so they could break through to the surface.

People always knew what the ice coverage was over the North Pole, because ships were always probing, and natives always traversed for hunting purposes. And you do NOT need satellites. We had lots of planes in the 1950s, which vastly superior technology than one can put into a tiny satellite.

Thanks for proving global climate is cyclical and there is nothing we humans can do to stop it. Instead of trying to blame humans (for fun and profit) may I suggest actually studying the climate so we can protect ourselves from natural cyclical changes? It's like studying asteroids to see if they will eventually target Earth. No one blames humans for asteroids but we are looking for ways to protect us from a devastating collision. Of course, give the radical lefties enough time and they will find a way to blame humans for everything that happens in space too.

Nonsense.
Natural climate cycles like ice ages are 120,000 years long, and according to their history, it is now supposed to be early in the cooling phase.
The current warming is not at all natural, much too fast, and at the wrong time.
So clearly we did cause it by adding 5 trillion tons of previously sequestered fossil fuel into the atmosphere every single year.
And that means we can also stop it by reducing our carbon output and encouraging more plants to absorb the excess we created.

Macro climate cycles are not regular, but you keep making up stuff

That is just a lie.
There have been over 12 regular macro climate cycles called ice ages.
They are all about the same length and intensity, going back over a million years.
Before that thing were not as regular, but that like was due to additional heat from catastrophic events, as well as lingering heat from the gravitational condensation of planet, and its radioactive element decay.

Interglacial - Wikipedia

Wrong again doofus because the last ice age actually lasted 1.8 million years before cresting 20000 years ago

Are you handicapped?

The last Ice Age, known as the Pleistocene Epoch, began almost 1.8 million years ago and lasted until approximately 11,700 years ago. During this time, massive glaciers covered most of the surface of the Earth. There have been four known Ice Ages on Earth in the 4.6 billion years that the planet has existed. It is very possible that there were many more that occurred that are undocumented from before the advent of mankind, about 2.3 million years ago.

If you prefer to use the term interglacial period instead of ice age, that is fine.
Doesn't matter to me at all.
The point is that there have been over 12 interglacial periods, they last about 120,000 years long, and according to their natural cycle, we are no naturally supposed to be cooling.
It changes nothing except to confuse average people who talk about the last ice age of the mammoths and mastodons, instead of calling it the more accurate, last interglacial period.

It does not change the fact that natural climate periods are on the order of a hundred thousand years long, so our current warming of the same magnitude in less than 150 years can not possibly be natural.

 

[Frannie]

The subs surfaced at the geographic north pole, get over it you are a religious fool of the climate cult

Yes subs can surface though several feet of ice at the North Pole.
So what?
It was not open water, and now it is.
That is called a difference.
See how that works?

Only a child would not remember the images of the 1950s Arctic summer expeditions.

Look kid there are photos of the OPEN WATER

You really are not that bright are you?

I already found the actual description of what you are claiming is the USS Skate that the North Pole in 1959, and proved that the image was NOT at the North Pole.

I am not going to look it up again and again post the correct caption.
You look it up.

LOL like Al Gore proved that all the North Pole ice would be melted in 2010 and no child would ever see snow

Seriously kid you are mentally ill and delusional if you think you can recreate history

There is also video of the skate surfacing at the North Pole in March at the end of winter when the ice is at its thickest

skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

But you stay there in denial

That video was taken in March before the Summer thaw, September and October have the least ice

 

[Wyatt earp]

The subs surfaced at the geographic north pole, get over it you are a religious fool of the climate cult

Yes subs can surface though several feet of ice at the North Pole.
So what?
It was not open water, and now it is.
That is called a difference.
See how that works?

Only a child would not remember the images of the 1950s Arctic summer expeditions.

Look kid there are photos of the OPEN WATER

You really are not that bright are you?

I already found the actual description of what you are claiming is the USS Skate that the North Pole in 1959, and proved that the image was NOT at the North Pole.

I am not going to look it up again and again post the correct caption.
You look it up.

LOL like Al Gore proved that all the North Pole ice would be melted in 2010 and no child would ever see snow

Seriously kid you are mentally ill and delusional if you think you can recreate history

There is also video of the skate surfacing at the North Pole in March at the end of winter when the ice is at its thickest

skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

But you stay there in denial

Looking at that news real it sure looks thin..

 

[Frannie]

Yes subs can surface though several feet of ice at the North Pole.
So what?
It was not open water, and now it is.
That is called a difference.
See how that works?

Only a child would not remember the images of the 1950s Arctic summer expeditions.

Look kid there are photos of the OPEN WATER

You really are not that bright are you?

I already found the actual description of what you are claiming is the USS Skate that the North Pole in 1959, and proved that the image was NOT at the North Pole.

I am not going to look it up again and again post the correct caption.
You look it up.

LOL like Al Gore proved that all the North Pole ice would be melted in 2010 and no child would ever see snow

Seriously kid you are mentally ill and delusional if you think you can recreate history

There is also video of the skate surfacing at the North Pole in March at the end of winter when the ice is at its thickest

skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

But you stay there in denial

Looking at that news real it sure looks thin..

It is thin because the ocean moves, it can not get very thick

 

[Wyatt earp]

Thanks for proving global climate is cyclical and there is nothing we humans can do to stop it. Instead of trying to blame humans (for fun and profit) may I suggest actually studying the climate so we can protect ourselves from natural cyclical changes? It's like studying asteroids to see if they will eventually target Earth. No one blames humans for asteroids but we are looking for ways to protect us from a devastating collision. Of course, give the radical lefties enough time and they will find a way to blame humans for everything that happens in space too.

Nonsense.
Natural climate cycles like ice ages are 120,000 years long, and according to their history, it is now supposed to be early in the cooling phase.
The current warming is not at all natural, much too fast, and at the wrong time.
So clearly we did cause it by adding 5 trillion tons of previously sequestered fossil fuel into the atmosphere every single year.
And that means we can also stop it by reducing our carbon output and encouraging more plants to absorb the excess we created.

Macro climate cycles are not regular, but you keep making up stuff

That is just a lie.
There have been over 12 regular macro climate cycles called ice ages.
They are all about the same length and intensity, going back over a million years.
Before that thing were not as regular, but that like was due to additional heat from catastrophic events, as well as lingering heat from the gravitational condensation of planet, and its radioactive element decay.

Interglacial - Wikipedia

Wrong again doofus because the last ice age actually lasted 1.8 million years before cresting 20000 years ago

Are you handicapped?

The last Ice Age, known as the Pleistocene Epoch, began almost 1.8 million years ago and lasted until approximately 11,700 years ago. During this time, massive glaciers covered most of the surface of the Earth. There have been four known Ice Ages on Earth in the 4.6 billion years that the planet has existed. It is very possible that there were many more that occurred that are undocumented from before the advent of mankind, about 2.3 million years ago.

If you prefer to use the term interglacial period instead of ice age, that is fine.
Doesn't matter to me at all.
The point is that there have been over 12 interglacial periods, they last about 120,000 years long, and according to their natural cycle, we are no naturally supposed to be cooling.
It changes nothing except to confuse average people who talk about the last ice age of the mammoths and mastodons, instead of calling it the more accurate, last interglacial period.

It does not change the fact that natural climate periods are on the order of a hundred thousand years long, so our current warming of the same magnitude in less than 150 years can not possibly be natural.

Huh?

The great Sahara Desert changed from tropical to dry in only a few hundred years.

Man wasn't driving cars then.

.

 

[Rigby5]

There were subs surfaced at an ice free north pole in the 50s. Furthermore prior to satellite data the ice cover at the north pole was not known. But you go on pretending

Yawn

Google Image Result for http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/uss-skate-open-water.jpg

Absolute lie.
There was no open water at the North Pole in the 1960s.
The image of open water was on the way TOO the North Pole.
There are people who took snow mobiles to the North Pole, in the summer, even after the 1950s. They could not have done that if there was ANY possible risk of even a trace of puddles, much less open water.
In fact, it took the USS Natilus days to find a thin vent in the ice so they could break through to the surface.

People always knew what the ice coverage was over the North Pole, because ships were always probing, and natives always traversed for hunting purposes. And you do NOT need satellites. We had lots of planes in the 1950s, which vastly superior technology than one can put into a tiny satellite.

View attachment 263950

Clearly in the image that is NOT open water.
Those are melt off pools on top of thicker ice that would prevent any ship passage.
Clearly the submarines looked for thin ice and punched up through ice that still covered the Arctic Ocean.
While things were already warming up from AGW since 1840, in 1987 there clearly was still no open passage through the Arctic ice.

What does that have to do with the picture at the North Pole?

That is the North Pole in March before the Summer thaw


skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

You assessment is not accurate.
The captain of the USS Skate explained that ocean movement of the ice would crack open fissures, but that was not melt-off and it quickly refroze over. So clearly it was much, much colder than compared to now.
About 11 degree colder in fact.

{...
“the Skate found open water both in the summer and following winter. We surfaced near the North Pole in the winter through thin ice less than 2 feet thick. The ice moves from Alaska to Iceland and the wind and tides causes open water as the ice breaks up. The Ice at the polar ice cap is an average of 6-8 feet thick, but with the wind and tides the ice will crack and open into large polynyas (areas of open water), these areas will refreeze over with thin ice. We had sonar equipment that would find these open or thin areas to come up through, thus limiting any damage to the submarine. The ice would also close in and cover these areas crushing together making large ice ridges both above and below the water. We came up through a very large opening in 1958 that was 1/2 mile long and 200 yards wide. The wind came up and closed the opening within 2 hours.
...}

 

[Sunsettommy]

{...
Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016
Author:
Tom Di Liberto
September 16, 2016

For the last several decades, Earth has had a fever, and it has been spiking in recent years. Nowhere has this been clearer than across the Arctic, where annual average temperature has been warming at twice the rate of lower latitudes. As a result, sea ice has become a dwindling commodityin the far north frequently exposing the southern path through the Northwest Passage—the oft-talked about ship route from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean through the Canadian Arctic.

The Canadian Arctic on August 9, 2016, showing the Northwest Passage nearly free of ice. The "southern route" through the passage, travelled by Roald Amundsen in the early 1900s, is traced in yellow. The more commericaly important "northern route" goes straight through Parry Channel from Lancaster Sound to McClure Strait. NASA/NOAA image from Suomi/NPP satellite.

Cloudless skies across the Arctic on August 9 provided a clear view of open water conditions across the straits that make up the Canadian Arctic. Thinner ice and record-low sea ice extents leading up to the 2016 summer melt season plus warmer oceans during the summer led to well below-average amounts of sea ice across the Arctic. Strong storms during August helped break up and clear out the ice along the southern route of the passage. You can draw a line yourself through iceless seas to create your own path, like finishing a real-time geographic maze.
...}

Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016 | NOAA Climate.gov

It's called Summer. Its not new either

Remind me when there is no ice in winter

Wrong.
There were summers before 2007, but no Northwest Passage.
There has not been a Northwest Passage for over 10,000 years, until now.

Ha ha, so much ignorance you have. It was passed through in a SINGLE season in 1944 and other trips before that happened too:

From Geology.com

Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen and his crew were the first to cross the Northwest Passage entirely by sea in 1906. Although the crossing was an important "first," it had little economic value because the journey took three years and used waters that were too shallow for commercial shipping.

and,

The first single-season trip through the passage was by Henry Larsen and crew in 1944.

and,

In 1957, three United States Coast Guard Cutters - Storis, Bramble, and SPAR - became the first ships to cross the Northwest Passage along a deep draft route. They covered the 4,500 miles of semi-charted water in 64 days.

Totally wrong. You clearly either did not read or did not understand what you were supposed to read.
There has always been ways by hugging along the coast, dependent on warmer rivers to break ice, or by using Coast Guard Cutters that can break through ice. That is NOT a commercial Northwest Passage.
All you have to do is read where is says, "64 days". A real Northwest Passage through the Arctic Ocean should only take about 5 days or so. It is not long if the ice allows a straight shot. When one is talking about 64 days, that is either slow ice breaking, or zigzagging while hugging the coast.
Think a little before writing next time.

From POST 29, you wrote:

"And anyone who remembers the USS Natilus traveling under the Arctic ice in the summer of 1958, will remember that until 2007 the whole Arctic Ocean was impossible to traverse, due to ice. Now you can. In 2007 was the first time you could do that in 10,000 years."

Then you wrote this later:

"Who and how?
There is absolutely no question global warming is happening. The Northwest Passage opening for the first time in 10,000 years is proof enough of that.
So are you saying that is part of some natural cycle, even though we know that the natural ice age cycle is more like 120 thousand years long?
You are making no sense and giving no details to claims that look pretty silly on their own."

Now you move the goalpost, changed part of your 10,000 year claim to include SHIPPING:

So are you really trying to claim that there was a Northwest Passage for easy traversal of shipping over the Arctic Ocean in the 10,000 years before 2007?
That would have to be the single biggest lie I have ever heard anyone ever claim! "

bolding mine

Then again your incorrect statement

"Wrong.
There were summers before 2007, but no Northwest Passage.
There has not been a Northwest Passage for over 10,000 years, until now."

Then this latest dishonest statement:

"Totally wrong. You clearly either did not read or did not understand what you were supposed to read.
There has always been ways by hugging along the coast, dependent on warmer rivers to break ice, or by using Coast Guard Cutters that can break through ice. That is NOT a commercial Northwest Passage.
All you have to do is read where is says, "64 days". A real Northwest Passage through the Arctic Ocean should only take about 5 days or so. It is not long if the ice allows a straight shot. When one is talking about 64 days, that is either slow ice breaking, or zigzagging while hugging the coast.
Think a little before writing next time. "

First, no mention of commercial shipping " will remember that until 2007 the whole Arctic Ocean was impossible to traverse, due to ice. Now you can. In 2007 was the first time you could do that in 10,000 years." that was YOUR FIRST post on this.

I gave you evidence that NP was indeed traversed in 1944, you realizing you were wrong, moved the goalpost to add the commercial shipping idea. You claimed it was IMPOSSIBLE to traverse it until 2007.

You are a proven liar and stupid too boot.

 

[Frannie]

Absolute lie.
There was no open water at the North Pole in the 1960s.
The image of open water was on the way TOO the North Pole.
There are people who took snow mobiles to the North Pole, in the summer, even after the 1950s. They could not have done that if there was ANY possible risk of even a trace of puddles, much less open water.
In fact, it took the USS Natilus days to find a thin vent in the ice so they could break through to the surface.

People always knew what the ice coverage was over the North Pole, because ships were always probing, and natives always traversed for hunting purposes. And you do NOT need satellites. We had lots of planes in the 1950s, which vastly superior technology than one can put into a tiny satellite.

View attachment 263950

Clearly in the image that is NOT open water.
Those are melt off pools on top of thicker ice that would prevent any ship passage.
Clearly the submarines looked for thin ice and punched up through ice that still covered the Arctic Ocean.
While things were already warming up from AGW since 1840, in 1987 there clearly was still no open passage through the Arctic ice.

What does that have to do with the picture at the North Pole?

That is the North Pole in March before the Summer thaw


skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

You assessment is not accurate.
The captain of the USS Skate explained that ocean movement of the ice would crack open fissures, but that was not melt-off and it quickly refroze over. So clearly it was much, much colder than compared to now.
About 11 degree colder in fact.

{...
“the Skate found open water both in the summer and following winter. We surfaced near the North Pole in the winter through thin ice less than 2 feet thick. The ice moves from Alaska to Iceland and the wind and tides causes open water as the ice breaks up. The Ice at the polar ice cap is an average of 6-8 feet thick, but with the wind and tides the ice will crack and open into large polynyas (areas of open water), these areas will refreeze over with thin ice. We had sonar equipment that would find these open or thin areas to come up through, thus limiting any damage to the submarine. The ice would also close in and cover these areas crushing together making large ice ridges both above and below the water. We came up through a very large opening in 1958 that was 1/2 mile long and 200 yards wide. The wind came up and closed the opening within 2 hours.
...}

6 inches is less than 2 feet thick, the video shows 6 to 10 inches. The video was taken in March which is right before the beginning of the Summer thaw the point of MOST ice. You really need to get a grip, the North pole ice cap always moves and heaves ice cores would never ever show sedimentary layers. That happens on glacial ice. But you go right on making up stuff like Gore did, you are not mocking me

 

[Frannie]

{...
Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016
Author:
Tom Di Liberto
September 16, 2016

For the last several decades, Earth has had a fever, and it has been spiking in recent years. Nowhere has this been clearer than across the Arctic, where annual average temperature has been warming at twice the rate of lower latitudes. As a result, sea ice has become a dwindling commodityin the far north frequently exposing the southern path through the Northwest Passage—the oft-talked about ship route from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean through the Canadian Arctic.

The Canadian Arctic on August 9, 2016, showing the Northwest Passage nearly free of ice. The "southern route" through the passage, travelled by Roald Amundsen in the early 1900s, is traced in yellow. The more commericaly important "northern route" goes straight through Parry Channel from Lancaster Sound to McClure Strait. NASA/NOAA image from Suomi/NPP satellite.

Cloudless skies across the Arctic on August 9 provided a clear view of open water conditions across the straits that make up the Canadian Arctic. Thinner ice and record-low sea ice extents leading up to the 2016 summer melt season plus warmer oceans during the summer led to well below-average amounts of sea ice across the Arctic. Strong storms during August helped break up and clear out the ice along the southern route of the passage. You can draw a line yourself through iceless seas to create your own path, like finishing a real-time geographic maze.
...}

Northwest Passage clear of ice again in 2016 | NOAA Climate.gov

It's called Summer. Its not new either

Remind me when there is no ice in winter

Wrong.
There were summers before 2007, but no Northwest Passage.
There has not been a Northwest Passage for over 10,000 years, until now.

Ha ha, so much ignorance you have. It was passed through in a SINGLE season in 1944 and other trips before that happened too:

From Geology.com

Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen and his crew were the first to cross the Northwest Passage entirely by sea in 1906. Although the crossing was an important "first," it had little economic value because the journey took three years and used waters that were too shallow for commercial shipping.

and,

The first single-season trip through the passage was by Henry Larsen and crew in 1944.

and,

In 1957, three United States Coast Guard Cutters - Storis, Bramble, and SPAR - became the first ships to cross the Northwest Passage along a deep draft route. They covered the 4,500 miles of semi-charted water in 64 days.

Totally wrong. You clearly either did not read or did not understand what you were supposed to read.
There has always been ways by hugging along the coast, dependent on warmer rivers to break ice, or by using Coast Guard Cutters that can break through ice. That is NOT a commercial Northwest Passage.
All you have to do is read where is says, "64 days". A real Northwest Passage through the Arctic Ocean should only take about 5 days or so. It is not long if the ice allows a straight shot. When one is talking about 64 days, that is either slow ice breaking, or zigzagging while hugging the coast.
Think a little before writing next time.

From POST 29, you wrote:

"And anyone who remembers the USS Natilus traveling under the Arctic ice in the summer of 1958, will remember that until 2007 the whole Arctic Ocean was impossible to traverse, due to ice. Now you can. In 2007 was the first time you could do that in 10,000 years."

Then you wrote this later:

"Who and how?
There is absolutely no question global warming is happening. The Northwest Passage opening for the first time in 10,000 years is proof enough of that.
So are you saying that is part of some natural cycle, even though we know that the natural ice age cycle is more like 120 thousand years long?
You are making no sense and giving no details to claims that look pretty silly on their own."

Now you move the goalpost, changed part of your 10,000 year claim to include SHIPPING:

So are you really trying to claim that there was a Northwest Passage for easy traversal of shipping over the Arctic Ocean in the 10,000 years before 2007?
That would have to be the single biggest lie I have ever heard anyone ever claim! "

bolding mine

Then again your incorrect statement

"Wrong.
There were summers before 2007, but no Northwest Passage.
There has not been a Northwest Passage for over 10,000 years, until now."

Then this latest dishonest statement:

"Totally wrong. You clearly either did not read or did not understand what you were supposed to read.
There has always been ways by hugging along the coast, dependent on warmer rivers to break ice, or by using Coast Guard Cutters that can break through ice. That is NOT a commercial Northwest Passage.
All you have to do is read where is says, "64 days". A real Northwest Passage through the Arctic Ocean should only take about 5 days or so. It is not long if the ice allows a straight shot. When one is talking about 64 days, that is either slow ice breaking, or zigzagging while hugging the coast.
Think a little before writing next time. "

First, no mention of commercial shipping " will remember that until 2007 the whole Arctic Ocean was impossible to traverse, due to ice. Now you can. In 2007 was the first time you could do that in 10,000 years." that was YOUR FIRST post on this.

I gave you evidence that NP was indeed traversed in 1944, you realizing you were wrong, moved the goalpost to add the commercial shipping idea. You claimed it was IMPOSSIBLE to traverse it until 2007.

You are a proven liar and stupid too boot.

Hey dude, no picking on my retard...…………..

he he he

 

[Rigby5]

Nonsense.
Natural climate cycles like ice ages are 120,000 years long, and according to their history, it is now supposed to be early in the cooling phase.
The current warming is not at all natural, much too fast, and at the wrong time.
So clearly we did cause it by adding 5 trillion tons of previously sequestered fossil fuel into the atmosphere every single year.
And that means we can also stop it by reducing our carbon output and encouraging more plants to absorb the excess we created.

Macro climate cycles are not regular, but you keep making up stuff

That is just a lie.
There have been over 12 regular macro climate cycles called ice ages.
They are all about the same length and intensity, going back over a million years.
Before that thing were not as regular, but that like was due to additional heat from catastrophic events, as well as lingering heat from the gravitational condensation of planet, and its radioactive element decay.

Interglacial - Wikipedia

Wrong again doofus because the last ice age actually lasted 1.8 million years before cresting 20000 years ago

Are you handicapped?

The last Ice Age, known as the Pleistocene Epoch, began almost 1.8 million years ago and lasted until approximately 11,700 years ago. During this time, massive glaciers covered most of the surface of the Earth. There have been four known Ice Ages on Earth in the 4.6 billion years that the planet has existed. It is very possible that there were many more that occurred that are undocumented from before the advent of mankind, about 2.3 million years ago.

If you prefer to use the term interglacial period instead of ice age, that is fine.
Doesn't matter to me at all.
The point is that there have been over 12 interglacial periods, they last about 120,000 years long, and according to their natural cycle, we are no naturally supposed to be cooling.
It changes nothing except to confuse average people who talk about the last ice age of the mammoths and mastodons, instead of calling it the more accurate, last interglacial period.

It does not change the fact that natural climate periods are on the order of a hundred thousand years long, so our current warming of the same magnitude in less than 150 years can not possibly be natural.

Huh?

The great Sahara Desert changed from tropical to dry in only a few hundred years.

Man wasn't driving cars then.

.

That has NOTHING to do with climate.
That was just weather.
And weather is very fickle, subject to many different combinations of accidental events.

Weather is the inconsistent lack of uniformity in atmospheric energy and moisture.

In contract, climate is the sum of all weather, where everything evens out.

But the Sahara has its own unique and strange weather history that has nothing to go with global climate. And it did not go from tropical to dry, but dry to topical and back to dry.

{...
At the end of the last Ice Age, the Sahara Desert was just as dry and uninviting as it is today. But sandwiched between two periods of extreme dryness were a few millennia of plentiful rainfall and lush vegetation.

During these few thousand years, prehistoric humans left the congested Nile Valley and established settlements around rain pools, green valleys, and rivers.

The ancient climate shift and its effects are detailed in the July 21 issue of the journal Science.

When the rains came

Some 12,000 years ago, the only place to live along the eastern Sahara Desert was the Nile Valley. Being so crowded, prime real estate in the Nile Valley was difficult to come by. Disputes over land were often settled with the fist, as evidenced by the cemetery of Jebel Sahaba where many of the buried individuals had died a violent death.

But around 10,500 years ago, a sudden burst of monsoon rains over the vast desert transformed the region into habitable land.

This opened the door for humans to move into the area, as evidenced by the researcher's 500 new radiocarbon dates of human and animal remains from more than 150 excavation sites.

"The climate change at [10,500 years ago] which turned most of the [3.8 million square mile] large Sahara into a savannah-type environment happened within a few hundred years only, certainly within less than 500 years," said study team member Stefan Kroepelin of the University of Cologne in Germany.
...}

Sahara Desert Was Once Lush and Populated

 

[SSDD]

So you admit that Global Warming is real and it's happening...you just stupidly don't care.

Oh...

Who ever said that the earth isn't warming? It has been warming since the end of the little ice age...and it still isn't as warm as it was before the onset of the little ice age...what would make anyone think that it won't warm up at least to the temperature it was before the onset of the little ice age?

That is idiotic.

It is NOT supposed to be warming now.
We are past the ice age by 20,000 years, it had already reached the warming peak, and it is now supposed to be cooling again. And that is what was happening until about 40 years ago.

You clearly know nothing about earth's history, climate, or anything related to this subject.

And ice age cycles are 120 thousand years long.
The cycles were are forcing, are more like 200 years long for the same range of change.

Tell me, by what metric do you say it is "supposed" to be doing anything. all the temperature reconstructions show that our climate is chaotic with warming and cooling periods happening at seemingly random intervals between glaciations...

You seem to just be making it up as you go because you certainly aren't showing anything like actual science to back up your claims.

 

[SSDD]

Are you an idiot?

Clearly the scale on the Holocene is 10,000 years, so there is no way anyone could see the classic hockey stick of the last 30 years or so.
Nor is there anyway anyone could produce hard data over ocean ice coverage. That would be impossible. They would have to be guessing based on land ice core samples, which are not really valid at all for floading ice, that are much more dependent upon things like currents.

You are so far off that you don't even see that you are contradicting yourself...you claim that we can't do temperature reconstructions, or ice cover reconstructions in one breath, then in the other you claim that you know what the climate is supposed to be doing apparently based on some temperature reconstruction which you claim can't be accurate.

 

[Rigby5]

The subs surfaced at the geographic north pole, get over it you are a religious fool of the climate cult

Yes subs can surface though several feet of ice at the North Pole.
So what?
It was not open water, and now it is.
That is called a difference.
See how that works?

Only a child would not remember the images of the 1950s Arctic summer expeditions.

Look kid there are photos of the OPEN WATER

You really are not that bright are you?

I already found the actual description of what you are claiming is the USS Skate that the North Pole in 1959, and proved that the image was NOT at the North Pole.

I am not going to look it up again and again post the correct caption.
You look it up.

LOL like Al Gore proved that all the North Pole ice would be melted in 2010 and no child would ever see snow

Seriously kid you are mentally ill and delusional if you think you can recreate history

There is also video of the skate surfacing at the North Pole in March at the end of winter when the ice is at its thickest

skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

But you stay there in denial

Exactly.
The USS Skate documented heavy ice, and no open water.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Macro climate cycles are not regular, but you keep making up stuff

That is just a lie.
There have been over 12 regular macro climate cycles called ice ages.
They are all about the same length and intensity, going back over a million years.
Before that thing were not as regular, but that like was due to additional heat from catastrophic events, as well as lingering heat from the gravitational condensation of planet, and its radioactive element decay.

Interglacial - Wikipedia

Wrong again doofus because the last ice age actually lasted 1.8 million years before cresting 20000 years ago

Are you handicapped?

The last Ice Age, known as the Pleistocene Epoch, began almost 1.8 million years ago and lasted until approximately 11,700 years ago. During this time, massive glaciers covered most of the surface of the Earth. There have been four known Ice Ages on Earth in the 4.6 billion years that the planet has existed. It is very possible that there were many more that occurred that are undocumented from before the advent of mankind, about 2.3 million years ago.

If you prefer to use the term interglacial period instead of ice age, that is fine.
Doesn't matter to me at all.
The point is that there have been over 12 interglacial periods, they last about 120,000 years long, and according to their natural cycle, we are no naturally supposed to be cooling.
It changes nothing except to confuse average people who talk about the last ice age of the mammoths and mastodons, instead of calling it the more accurate, last interglacial period.

It does not change the fact that natural climate periods are on the order of a hundred thousand years long, so our current warming of the same magnitude in less than 150 years can not possibly be natural.

Huh?

The great Sahara Desert changed from tropical to dry in only a few hundred years.

Man wasn't driving cars then.

.

That has NOTHING to do with climate.
That was just weather.
And weather is very fickle, subject to many different combinations of accidental events.

Weather is the inconsistent lack of uniformity in atmospheric energy and moisture.

In contract, climate is the sum of all weather, where everything evens out.

But the Sahara has its own unique and strange weather history that has nothing to go with global climate. And it did not go from tropical to dry, but dry to topical and back to dry.

{...
At the end of the last Ice Age, the Sahara Desert was just as dry and uninviting as it is today. But sandwiched between two periods of extreme dryness were a few millennia of plentiful rainfall and lush vegetation.

During these few thousand years, prehistoric humans left the congested Nile Valley and established settlements around rain pools, green valleys, and rivers.

The ancient climate shift and its effects are detailed in the July 21 issue of the journal Science.

When the rains came

Some 12,000 years ago, the only place to live along the eastern Sahara Desert was the Nile Valley. Being so crowded, prime real estate in the Nile Valley was difficult to come by. Disputes over land were often settled with the fist, as evidenced by the cemetery of Jebel Sahaba where many of the buried individuals had died a violent death.

But around 10,500 years ago, a sudden burst of monsoon rains over the vast desert transformed the region into habitable land.

This opened the door for humans to move into the area, as evidenced by the researcher's 500 new radiocarbon dates of human and animal remains from more than 150 excavation sites.

"The climate change at [10,500 years ago] which turned most of the [3.8 million square mile] large Sahara into a savannah-type environment happened within a few hundred years only, certainly within less than 500 years," said study team member Stefan Kroepelin of the University of Cologne in Germany.
...}

Sahara Desert Was Once Lush and Populated

Wait so the huge Sahara has nothing to do with climate change but artic ice does?


You stupid


.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Yes subs can surface though several feet of ice at the North Pole.
So what?
It was not open water, and now it is.
That is called a difference.
See how that works?

Only a child would not remember the images of the 1950s Arctic summer expeditions.

Look kid there are photos of the OPEN WATER

You really are not that bright are you?

I already found the actual description of what you are claiming is the USS Skate that the North Pole in 1959, and proved that the image was NOT at the North Pole.

I am not going to look it up again and again post the correct caption.
You look it up.

LOL like Al Gore proved that all the North Pole ice would be melted in 2010 and no child would ever see snow

Seriously kid you are mentally ill and delusional if you think you can recreate history

There is also video of the skate surfacing at the North Pole in March at the end of winter when the ice is at its thickest

skate at north pole 1958 - Bing video

But you stay there in denial

Exactly.
The USS Skate documented heavy ice, and no open water.

The news real showed otherwise.


.

 

[SSDD]

No, you did not show that there is more ice now.
There is NO ice data from before there were planes and submarines to explore the ice.
And the graphs you did show were of such as large scale that they do not at all show the last 50 years.
They hardly even show the last 1000 years.
You clearly do not know how to read a graph at all.
As what you published shows you are totally wrong.

It is easy show the real data.
Here is one that at first glance appears similar to what you posted.

But look closer.
The Hockey Stick is visible.
If you look along the right edge on the Temperature Anomaly axis, you will see the year 2016 with an arrow point to a point on the axis, very close to 1 degree above the dotted median of the axis. That clearly is higher than almost every single spike anywhere during the entire Holocene.
Anyone then who does not recognize this as an enormous hockey stick, would have to be blind, stupid, and irrational.

What a doofus...clearly you don't even know what the hockey stick is...and that graph doesn't show one...what that graph shows is that the present is cooler than it has been for most of the past 10,000 years. It shows the same thing as the graphs that I have been showing you, and in case you didn't know, when it is warmer, there is going to be less ice.....or do you think that ice didn't melt when it was warmer in the past.