pro life vs pro choice

[JBeukema]

it's nobodys fucking business who does or does not get an abortion.

And it's nobody's business who I lure to a motel, bludgeon to death, cannibalize, and dump in an alleyway


​

 

[Immanuel]

It is necessary for eggs and sperm to be frozen from what I have learned so far, but I don't know enough to comment about the fertilized things in freezers out of what you say is sheer laziness. It seems sometimes the vision of 'a freak' may be what potentially saves many from the same. Stem cells are currently in high demand from my understanding because of massive research, or am I mistaken?

The blood, the cells, and anything else collected from an already deceased fetus makes the best sense to me than just 'throwing it in the trash'. It isn't pretty and it isn't comfortable, but it is logical, considering.

The main issue with what it seems you have described is that this leads to abortion mills where women get pregnant in order to sell their "product".

From everything I have read, the stem cells produced by adult tissues seem to be as valuable if not more so than embryonic stem cells.

Here is a pretty decent article that I found on the issue:

Embryonic Stem Cells Vs. Adult Stem Cells, Page 3 of 3 - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

Adult stem cells, however, are not completely subordinate to ES cells in terms of clinical and laboratory utility. Although adult stem cells harvested from adult organisms are problematic in one sense, they are beneficial in another. If the problem of culturing cells in vitro cold be overcome, adult stem cells would possess a great advantage over ES cells. They would not have the problem of being rejected upon re-implantation into the donor body (that is also the recipient). In addition, adult stem cells do not have the tumorigenic problem of ES cells upon implantation. Using adult stem cells for research and therapy is also advantageous in the sense that embryos do not have to be destroyed in order to extract the experimental cells.

Immie

Thank you for the link to the article.

That would definitely be something that I could not fathom as being productive or logical. I won't go into ranting mode, but there are enough already within the systematic belief of multiplying without regard to support or consequences, 'farming' (of a different kind) seems more necessary after the fact of delivery. Most people refer to some methods of 'farming' as religion and spirituality.

Productive or logical? Who says it has to be productive or logical as long as it provides enough income to supply the next few days of crack, why would it matter?

And by all means, I am not saying all women are stupid enough to do this, but there are some.

Immie

 

[Cuyo]

it's nobodys fucking business who does or does not get an abortion.

And it's nobody's business who I lure to a motel, bludgeon to death, cannibalize, and dump in an alleyway


​

Yes JB, we get it. You're vehemently pro-life, insert absurd false equivalency, declare victory, mock other viewpoint, display emoticon. Duly noted.

 

[Iridescence]

Seriously, the 93% CONVENIENCE factor keeps me from being completely pro-choice. I am leaning also with JB as whatever be 'most convenient' does seem to mirror one extremist view with another.

 

[JBeukema]

it's nobodys fucking business who does or does not get an abortion.

And it's nobody's business who I lure to a motel, bludgeon to death, cannibalize, and dump in an alleyway


​

Yes JB, we get it. You're vehemently pro-life, insert absurd false equivalency, declare victory, mock other viewpoint, display emoticon. Duly noted.

I'm just following your very argument to the letter.

You can't tell me anything is wrong with raping and killing someone.

I've asked you time and again to say there's anything wrong with it and you can't.

 

[Cuyo]

And it's nobody's business who I lure to a motel, bludgeon to death, cannibalize, and dump in an alleyway


​

Yes JB, we get it. You're vehemently pro-life, insert absurd false equivalency, declare victory, mock other viewpoint, display emoticon. Duly noted.

I'm just following your very argument to the letter.

You can't tell me anything is wrong with raping and killing someone.

I've asked you time and again to say there's anything wrong with it and you can't.

You've asked me what? What is 'my very argument?'

My argument was that the fetus is, quite literally, completely biologically dependent on the mother, and posed an inherent risk to here life and health. Of course you tailspun off into absurd equivelancies about extending that position to people who were financially dependent upon others... Ridiculous...

As far as the privacy issue ('It's nobody's business'), no that was not me, you are confusing me with other posters.

 

[Iridescence]

JB I don't know if there is an argument against that particular train of thought, I suppose the best thing said is that if you show up at my door with those intentions you won't be walking away having succeeded without a few of your own mishaps.

 

[JBeukema]

posed an inherent risk to here life and health

Most pregnancies aren't a threat to a woman's life or health beyond morning sickness and stretch marks.

If they were, our species probably wouldn't have survived so long

 

[JBeukema]

JB I don't know if there is an argument against that particular train of thought

Yes, there is.


You just have to be willing accept that your right to do as you will to and with your body does not extend to acts which harm another.

Most people already accept this. That's why rape and most other cold-blooded killings are illegal.

 

[Iridescence]

JB I don't know if there is an argument against that particular train of thought

Yes, there is.


You just have to be willing accept that your right to do as you will to and with your body does not extend to acts which harm another.

Most people already accept this. That's why rape and most other cold-blooded killings are illegal.

Whereas you aren't wrong and we don't disagree for the most part, there are sometimes circumstantial technicalities that keeps it from being cut and dried as it seems many pro-lifers would have it be.

 

[Cuyo]

posed an inherent risk to here life and health

Most pregnancies aren't a threat to a woman's life or health beyond morning sickness and stretch marks.

If they were, our species probably wouldn't have survived so long

Way to extract half a sentence from my reply and proceed with more sophistry and emoticons.

There is a risk of death in all pregnancies. The severity of the risk is low, especially in the developed world, but that's not the point. The entire phenomenon of a pregnancy takes place inside the body of a human being, and there is associated risk to that human being. Thus, that human being has the right to determine if it will happen or not. Stop trying to make it analogous to external social issues.

 

[JBeukema]

JB I don't know if there is an argument against that particular train of thought

Yes, there is.


You just have to be willing accept that your right to do as you will to and with your body does not extend to acts which harm another.

Most people already accept this. That's why rape and most other cold-blooded killings are illegal.

Whereas you aren't wrong and we don't disagree for the most part, there are sometimes circumstantial technicalities that keeps it from being cut and dried as it seems many pro-lifers would have it be.

Not really. The rape argument? First off, it's just an attempt to exploit real rape victims for the benefit of the other 99% of people who abort their babies. Secondly, it's punishing the child for the sins of the father. Since when does the relationship between your parents determine whether killing you is okay?

As for life-threatening situations, that's a wholly different argument. It's already established that if a doctor can save one life or take a very real risk at losing two, he is morally and ethically obligated to preserve life- kind of ironic, isn't it? One of the pro-abortionists favourite arguments is that we must preserve life.

 

[JBeukema]

=

There is a risk of death in all pregnancies.

or crossing the street

or eating eggs

or getting out of the shower with a wet foot

The entire phenomenon of a pregnancy takes place inside the body of a human being, and there is associated risk to that human being. Thus, that human being has the right to determine if it will happen or not.

so now we can kill an unborn baby until it stars to crown?

 

[manifold]

So now we're at 22-11 for pro-choice...

I'm betting Meister voted pro-life more than once....

 

[JBeukema]

So now we're at 22-11 for pro-choice...

The majority once thought slavery was cool, too

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[manifold]

So now we're at 22-11 for pro-choice...

The majority once thought slavery was cool, too

Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fallacy reference fail.

I merely commented on the results so far, I didn't say that it proves anything.

But whatcha gonna do?

 

[Iridescence]

I was taught that wikipedia is not the best source to use for some reason.

Also, what is best? Honorable death (suicide), murder (deliverance of sorts), or enslavement (supposed representation of spiritual embarrassment) ? It seriously seems that there are underlying ulterior motives to every movement. Perhaps our talk and political rallying is all discord and contrary to the proofs, the evidence of the ways we actually live our lives.

Anyways. I'm still more with JB's suggestive ideology. If he is a politician....

 

[Immanuel]

I was taught that wikipedia is not the best source to use for some reason.

Also, what is best? Honorable death (suicide), murder (deliverance of sorts), or enslavement (supposed representation of spiritual embarrassment) ? It seriously seems that there are underlying ulterior motives to every movement. Perhaps our talk and political rallying is all discord and contrary to the proofs, the evidence of the ways we actually live our lives.

Anyways. I'm still more with JB's suggestive ideology. If he is a politician....

Anyone can post anything they want on Wiki so until the "moderators" go through and clean up the postings, they are no more reliable than something you would read here from say... me?

Immie

 

[Iridescence]

Okay Immie... I'm watching you.

Also, there isn't something I've yet seen argued, granted I have not gone through this entire thread post by post, just page by page.

What keeps me from being completely pro-life? Not much. I am so pro-life that it's almost not even a question, however, it isn't about me. What of those women in bad relationships? In situations that just are not discussed or understood by anyone, even their sect, family, or church...but especially their community? There *are* children raised in situations that, granted, if they outgrow and overcome certain barriers they are of the most successful in their field with an unriveled strength. However, that being what it potentially is, there is a great moaning, a horrid pain, and illogical reasoning in allowing lives to be lived in such a way that certain levels of enslavement be permissable. Where are the truest watchdogs? *Who*, rather is the better question, are the watchdogs? The women? This is why some religions will forever be rivels to fundamental Christianity, perhaps.

To me, as I am sure to so many others, pro-life, pro-choice, pro-abortion and any other like movement represents a meshpot that is still too impossible to determine as a society because *we* are not *just* thinking of ourselves and our own lives, our own families and our own loves... *we* consider the position that others are in who may not be able to be the voice that we are.

 

[Immanuel]

Okay Immie... I'm watching you.

Also, there isn't something I've yet seen argued, granted I have not gone through this entire thread post by post, just page by page.

What keeps me from being completely pro-life? Not much. I am so pro-life that it's almost not even a question, however, it isn't about me. What of those women in bad relationships? In situations that just are not discussed or understood by anyone, even their sect, family, or church...but especially their community? There *are* children raised in situations that, granted, if they outgrow and overcome certain barriers they are of the most successful in their field with an unriveled strength. However, that being what it potentially is, there is a great moaning, a horrid pain, and illogical reasoning in allowing lives to be lived in such a way that certain levels of enslavement be permissable. Where are the truest watchdogs? *Who*, rather is the better question, are the watchdogs? The women? This is why some religions will forever be rivels to fundamental Christianity, perhaps.

To me, as I am sure to so many others, pro-life, pro-choice, pro-abortion and any other like movement represents a meshpot that is still too impossible to determine as a society because *we* are not *just* thinking of ourselves and our own lives, our own families and our own loves... *we* consider the position that others are in who may not be able to be the voice that we are.

Too much to answer and I only have a short time left before I have to leave.

The only answer I can come up with is that it is not the babies fault that the mother is in a terrible relationship or that she does not think she can afford to raise a child. That seems harsh from the mother's side, but there is no telling what joy that child may bring her in the future.

Immie