Privatize % of SS ?

[McDowell's]

Ponzi schemes are illegal regardless of whether the cops are called or authorities are aware of their existence. No analogy is required. You admitted social security is a ponzi scheme. As such, the system needs to be reformed to something sustainable. Saying the status quo works and at the same time admitting it's an inherently flawed system is completely contradictory. Just because the failure point is somewhere in the distant future doesn't mean the underlying issues shouldn't be addressed. The sooner they are addressed the less damage that will occur in the long run.

First up: When you're the one making the laws, you can set up a legal Ponzi Scheme if you wish and voila, it's legal. Technically murder (the death penalty), kidnapping (extraordinary rendition), and other government practices are illegal if committed by private citizens. That's because one of the basic tenets of government is that you surrender to the government the right to take certain actions on behalf of the citizens.

Second: I agree there are problems. Social Security is a machine, and like any machine it needs to be maintained and adjusted from time to time. There are reforms that could make the system run for the forseeable future, but there's no guarantee that even with reform there isn't some unforeseen wrinkle waiting in the wings.

I am glad we agree on the technical point regarding taxation and the error about the "My Money" approach to Social Security. I know I'd be open to privatizing and investing any portion of the Social Security piggy bank that wasn't immediately needed to pay out to beneficiaries. For example: If Social Security owes 1 billion in immediate payments to beneficiaries and collects 2 billion this year in taxes, by all means privatize and invest the left over against the future.

The question is how to privatize.

That's fine, I'm not here to argue the legality of social security as it currently exists merely the efficacy of the system. Having said that, just because something is legal does not make it right. And my point is the system in not right. There is a reason the government has outlawed ponzi schemes. They are fraudulent and by definition cannot last into perpetuity.

I agree there has to be a way to wind down the system and ensure people who have been a part of the system get the benefits they deserve. Privatizing 100% of the system immediately would be completely out of the question, and obviously some people would rather the status quo so let them have it.

 

[Oddball]

Ues but as we recently found out that invested money does not necessarailly make money for the investor.
and Enron was such a great investment

I don't know any smart investors who put all their money into one stock.

BTW, cars get into deadly wrecks every now and then...Best you stay out of those death traps.

 

[McDowell's]

So now you're saying that people could be "circulating their money in the private sector" instead of saving and investing in their futures? And, according to you, it would be preferable for people to beg from charities who ends up broke.

Guess what? We've already been down that road pre-Social Security and it doesn't work.

Social Security has kept and is keeping MILLIONS OF PEOPLE out of poverty. You don't like it? Take it up with them.

Better yet, don't be a hypocrite by signing up for your "handout" from the government when your time comes.

When money is saved and invested, it circulates in the economy creating more wealth, you economic rube.

Actions and inactions have consequences.

Your welfare program rewards the shortsighted and punishes the thrifty and industrious.

And your leftist boilerplate claim that SS has kept people out of poverty is entirely unprovable.

Ues but as we recently found out that invested money does not necessarailly make money for the investor.
and Enron was such a great investment

By all means, cherry pick the hell out of that shit!

 

[mdn2000]

The confiscation of my property is tryanny, nothing less, Social Security is pure tyranny.

Why is my hard work, my labor, my private property confiscated for the profit of others.

Social Security is beyond broke, its simple taxation, the confiscation of my labor with complete disregard to my needs.

Slavery, I work for the old, I work for the poor, I work for the lazy, I work for the ignorant, I work for those of less intelligence and ability.

Why do you people not just have me come over to your house and fix your car, put some gas in and at the same time I can give you a thousand dollars for anything you want or need to buy, it would be cheaper for me, just make it a law that Mr. John Doe must work for Tyrone Gonzales Smith, retired incompetent.

Damn that Constitution!

Who the hell gave Congress the right to collect taxes!

Social Security is a tax? Where does the Constitution authorize Social Security?

That saids, where does the Constitution give Congress the right to collect every tax and spend every dollar and more on the things they do, where does the Constitution authorize our representatives to spend indiscriminately at their whim.

Damn those who read the Constitution, its best to let the scholars interpet it for me.

 

[mdn2000]

So, once again its Liberals who are hypocrites, Social Security confinscation good for some, bad for others.

Walter Williams

Vital to any Ponzi scheme, like Social Security, is the ability to recruit as many suckers as possible. In 1999, a little noticed part of President Clinton's plan to "save" Social Security was to force 5 million previously exempted employees into Social Security. If they were forced into Social Security, it would have created billions in additional revenue. Guess what. Twelve senators, including five Democrats — Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), Christopher Dodd (D-Conn.), Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) and Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) — descended on the White House to demand that President Clinton not support forcing 5 million of their constituents into Social Security. They warned of the adverse impact on employees in terms of lower rates of return and lost flexibility.


Isn't that great? These are the same politicians who are now resisting President Bush's call to allow Americans to take a part of their Social Security taxes to put into private retirement accounts. If they'd go to bat for those 5 million workers to remain out of Social Security, to avoid the adverse impact of lower rates of return and lost flexibility, why would they fight to deny tens of millions of workers a right to use a portion of their taxes to do the same

 

[Modbert]

Damn those who read the Constitution, its best to let the scholars interpet it for me.

Historical context: The average life expectancy back in the 1750's and 1790's was roughly 35 years of age.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Social Security is now permanently in the red.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Sick and getting sicker, Social Security will run at a deficit this year and keep on running in the red until its trust funds are drained by about 2037, congressional budget experts said Wednesday in bleaker-than-previous estimates.

The massive retirement program has been suffering from the effects of the struggling economy for several years. It first went into deficit last year but had been projected to post surpluses for a few more years before permanently slipping into the red in 2016

This year alone, Social Security will pay out $45 billion more in retirement, disability and survivors' benefits than it collects in payroll taxes, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said. That figure nearly triples — to $130 billion — when the new one-year cut in payroll taxes is included.

The Associated Press: Social Security now seen to run permanent deficits

 

[Trajan]

Social Security is now permanently in the red.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Sick and getting sicker, Social Security will run at a deficit this year and keep on running in the red until its trust funds are drained by about 2037, congressional budget experts said Wednesday in bleaker-than-previous estimates.

The massive retirement program has been suffering from the effects of the struggling economy for several years. It first went into deficit last year but had been projected to post surpluses for a few more years before permanently slipping into the red in 2016

This year alone, Social Security will pay out $45 billion more in retirement, disability and survivors' benefits than it collects in payroll taxes, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said. That figure nearly triples — to $130 billion — when the new one-year cut in payroll taxes is included.

The Associated Press: Social Security now seen to run permanent deficits

you must be mistaken. that link is clearly a phoney, they said it would be good till 2018 AT LEAST....

 

[mdn2000]

Damn those who read the Constitution, its best to let the scholars interpet it for me.

Historical context: The average life expectancy back in the 1750's and 1790's was roughly 35 years of age.

average life 35 years, yet presidents needed to be 35 years old, sounds like less than half the population ever lived long enough to be president.

I think that average is somehow misrepresented, of course Social Securty was not enacted until the Twentieth Century so I am not sure what your point is, people died before they reached the age they needed Social Security so it was not thought of to have Social Security in the Constitution.

Congress and the people have thrown out the Constitution.

Today the Constitution means nothing.

 

[rdean]

So right wingers are saying, "If you gamble in the stock market, there is no chance you would lose your money"?

 

[snjmom]

deserve to live on the poor farm

What is this collectivist farm for the poor you speak of? Let us bring back the forced labor camps for those feckless working class losers that lived paycheck to paycheck. Earn their living.

 

[uscitizen]

Ues but as we recently found out that invested money does not necessarailly make money for the investor.
and Enron was such a great investment

I don't know any smart investors who put all their money into one stock.

BTW, cars get into deadly wrecks every now and then...Best you stay out of those death traps.

It did not have to all be in one stock. I personally know people who were living off of their 401K and such with SS and the 401K's pretty much dried up.

Are we back up to the level were were 4 years ago yet?
4 years is a long time when you only have less than 10 left to live (statistically speaking)

This is gonna be interesting to watch the right lose the over 50 vote. Heck Bill O'reilly might lose all of his viewers

 

[mdn2000]

So right wingers are saying, "If you gamble in the stock market, there is no chance you would lose your money"?

There is no chance in the short term, which is this short term that Obama has personally invested a Trillion dollars, that is Obama has invested the Deficit directly into the stock market. Short term you cannot lose as long as Obama is putting that kind of money directly into Wall Street. Obama has now lost the ability to invest in the stock market. If anything Obama has taught us is Obama's presidency sets records in everything, from being the first half black president (except when his campaign took him into Ohio or Kansas then Obama became the Grandson of White, Christian, Americans), to the President with the biggest government, to the President with the greatest unemployment figures, to the President who takes the most vacations and makes the most speeches.

How many people willing to bet the stock market will continue to rise or stay where its at under Obama, I bet the stock market has a record crash after the trillion dollars Obama put into the stock market is digested.

Short term Obama invested a trillion dollars of the deficit in the stock market,

Long term that money is lost, we will pay higher prices for electricity, food, gas, clothing, all do to Obama, Ried, Nancy Pelosi, and all the corrupt Republican and Democrat politicians.

rdean, if you were not so blinded by your incredible ignorance you would see that I have consistently stated Republicans are to blame as much as Democrats.

Rdean like so many others take not just my posts, but anyone anywhere who corrects lies with facts as being in support of a paticular party, that is blind ignorance on rdeans and everyone elses part.

Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, and now Obama, we are lucky to be alive, throw in Congress, it is unbelievable to think how well we would live and how great a world we would give to our children if we were not in the fight of our lives against a corrupt, failed government.

The burden of debt, the lack of an intelligent energy policy, a foreign policy able to change with the wind, its a miracle we have survived these fools this long.

On top of all this the only thing not being recommended to fix our financial problem is to grow our economy by 400,000,000 new jobs in the next 10 years.

How about grow industry and employment to resolve the problem.

The politicians are going to slowly bleed off the wealth of the elderly, who own trillions in stock, jobs will continue to disappear, new power will be batteries at best, and everyone knows batteries suck, for the environment and the pocket book. The only solution is the one Liberals hate, allow the United States of America to grow by reducing government and taking the power away from the lawyers and politicians.

We need to take the power of Government in all its forms to steal money in any form, tax, fee, redemtion values.

From city government to state, to federal government, we must take away the ability for government to collect money period, for anything.

Ten percent tax, one tax, nothing more, spend more you pay more at the same rate everyone pays, on anything and everything sold.

The government has no business having a death tax nor a property tax, the government has no business knowing I have medical bills by allowing me a tax deduction, the government has no business knowing the cost of mortgage by collecting tax then allowing a deduction.

Being able to collect money corrupts everyone from the President to the jerk working for the EPA to the person who determines if I filled out my immigration visa for my wife from Brazil correctly.

Give a person the power to collect money and it corrupts, government employees making mistakes brings revenue into the government, legal immigration is a great example, a government employee easily enters an address wrong in the computer and a person's wife's permanent resident card is lost and the government employee instead of admitting a mistake that reflects poorly on themselves determines the mistake was made by the citizen thus the citizen must repay all the fees and start over.

Its as simple as that, the government is now in the business to make money and the only way the government makes money is to take from me, of course they bled me dry, now they have borrowed against the future of my children.

Go ahead Rdean, that must piss you off, give me more negative rep. Go ahead, I am a far right lunatic because I view the governments ability to collect money as a corrupting force that must be stopped.

All levels, city to county to state to federal government, one tax one time, ten percent when a buck is spent.

I have not seen a leader since Ronald Reagan and under Reagan things did not improve, or maybe they did, I may not of seen the improvement because I do live in Conservative Hell, California.

 

[uscitizen]

Short term is long term when you only have a few years left.

children have no idea.

 

[uscitizen]

Some people are resuming 401K contributions finally some are not.
Why put it in to have it evaporate?

 

[boedicca]

For SS, the long term prospect of permanent deficits has Suddenly and Unexpectedly become Short Term:

The Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday that Social Security will pay out $45 billion more in benefits this year than it will collect in payroll taxes, further straining the nation’s finances. The deficits will continue until the Social Security trust funds are eventually drained, in about 2037.

Previously, CBO said Social Security would start running permanent deficits in 2016. In the short term, Social Security is suffering from a weak economy that has payroll taxes lagging and applications for benefits rising. In the long term, Social Security will be strained by the growing number of baby boomers retiring and applying for benefits.

CBO: Social Security to begin running permanent deficits this year, not 2016 Hot Air

 

[Flopper]

I once saw a right winger on TV talking about how wonderful it would be if we put SS into the stock market. The announcer asked, "What happens if they lose their money and go broke". The Republican said, "Well, those things happen. They would be broke".

Everyone with a retirement plan assumes their nest egg will just keep growing till retirement time then they will start cashing in and living the good life.

So it's time to retire. You count your pennies, purchase that RV you have had your eye on for years, purchase your retirement home, turn in your retirement papers and start on the 9 month vacation you have dreamed about for years. Unfortunately it's 2008. While your're seeing the country, the market falls almost 60%. Your 1,000,000 nest egg is worth only $450,000. Your retirement home is down almost 10% in value and your RV is down a lot more. You now have to start selling your investments that are worth half what they were a year ago to buy furniture, pay your mortgage and living expenses. Getting a job at 67 with unemployment going through the roof is not an option. You can't sleep at nights worrying that you may end up with nothing and having to live off your kids so you sell your investments at half the value they were just a year ago figuring it's better to take the loss than lose everything. To add insult to injury, you have to pay tax on the full amount of the sale, about $400,000 and you can't take any deduction for the huge lost you have taken since this is an IRA. After taxes you have only about $275,000 to live on for the rest of your life.

Unfortunately, this is a true story. The bright light in this dismal mess was social security. No matter what happens in the market, there's a safety net.

 

[The T]

You support allowing people to invest some or all of the SS payments into private account?

I support CUTTING IT OFF

 

[Flopper]

Ponzi schemes are illegal regardless of whether the cops are called or authorities are aware of their existence. No analogy is required. You admitted social security is a ponzi scheme. As such, the system needs to be reformed to something sustainable. Saying the status quo works and at the same time admitting it's an inherently flawed system is completely contradictory. Just because the failure point is somewhere in the distant future doesn't mean the underlying issues shouldn't be addressed. The sooner they are addressed the less damage that will occur in the long run.

First up: When you're the one making the laws, you can set up a legal Ponzi Scheme if you wish and voila, it's legal. Technically murder (the death penalty), kidnapping (extraordinary rendition), and other government practices are illegal if committed by private citizens. That's because one of the basic tenets of government is that you surrender to the government the right to take certain actions on behalf of the citizens.

Second: I agree there are problems. Social Security is a machine, and like any machine it needs to be maintained and adjusted from time to time. There are reforms that could make the system run for the forseeable future, but there's no guarantee that even with reform there isn't some unforeseen wrinkle waiting in the wings.

I am glad we agree on the technical point regarding taxation and the error about the "My Money" approach to Social Security. I know I'd be open to privatizing and investing any portion of the Social Security piggy bank that wasn't immediately needed to pay out to beneficiaries. For example: If Social Security owes 1 billion in immediate payments to beneficiaries and collects 2 billion this year in taxes, by all means privatize and invest the left over against the future.

The question is how to privatize.

That's fine, I'm not here to argue the legality of social security as it currently exists merely the efficacy of the system. Having said that, just because something is legal does not make it right. And my point is the system in not right. There is a reason the government has outlawed ponzi schemes. They are fraudulent and by definition cannot last into perpetuity.

I agree there has to be a way to wind down the system and ensure people who have been a part of the system get the benefits they deserve. Privatizing 100% of the system immediately would be completely out of the question, and obviously some people would rather the status quo so let them have it.

I don't think privatizing S.S. is the answer whether you do it next week or 100 years from now. We need a system that provides a safety net so no matter what happens to the economy or your investment skills, you at least will be able to have a roof over your head and food to eat.

The S.S. system needs to be fixed not phased out. S.S. can easily be fixed by extending the retirement age to 69, or 67 with a small increase in FICA. There are other fixes such as taxing benefits.

The problem with S.S. is we are living to long plus we had too babies after WWII.

When S.S. was started, the retirement age was 65. Life expectancy was only about 62. So most people people would not live long enough to collect social security. For those that made it to retirement age, they could only expect to live about 5 more years. So you had a system where most people would not live long enough to collect and if they did most would only receive benefits for 5 fears. Today the life expectancy is about 73. Once you retirement you can look forward to receiving benefits for about 17 years.
So comparing today with 1938, most people people will draw benefits and they will draw them for over 3 times as long.

 

[The T]

For SS, the long term prospect of permanent deficits has Suddenly and Unexpectedly become Short Term:

The Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday that Social Security will pay out $45 billion more in benefits this year than it will collect in payroll taxes, further straining the nation’s finances. The deficits will continue until the Social Security trust funds are eventually drained, in about 2037.

Previously, CBO said Social Security would start running permanent deficits in 2016. In the short term, Social Security is suffering from a weak economy that has payroll taxes lagging and applications for benefits rising. In the long term, Social Security will be strained by the growing number of baby boomers retiring and applying for benefits.

CBO: Social Security to begin running permanent deficits this year, not 2016 Hot Air

Same as The Governemnt UNIONS and thier PENSIONS...

Curious...more failure.