Private Sector Education

DGS49

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2012
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Pittsburgh
I'm just throwing some concepts around here, but I wonder what childhood education would be like if it were truly run as a private industry - free from regulatory constraints and the influence of educational tradition, and solely geared to producing measurable results.

Let's say State Departments of Education decided to "contract out" education in the same way that they contract out other professional services, like, for example, engineering or architectural services. In most states, these procurements are not done on a competitive price basis, but rather, the bidding companies make presentations of their credentials and ideas, and the state chooses the firm that appears to offer the best services at a reasonable cost.

Contracts would be three or four year duration with options for additional years, and students' progress would be closely monitored. "Grades" (K-12) and "Grades" (A-F) would be entirely at the option of the Contractor, as long as the students are making progress toward "12th grade" competency. Training and credentials of teachers would pretty much be left up to the Contractors. Teaching certificates would not be required, and in fact, the schools would make use of part-time teachers extensively - engineers, accountants, college professors, and scientists - maybe even retired people - who want to teach a couple hours a week for modest compensation. (How many competent professionals would love to do some teaching, but don't even bother trying to get their credentials because of the wasted time and bullshit?)

School buildings with all utilities would be provided at State expense. Food services and janitorial, landscaping, student transportation, and so forth would also be contracted out, but separately.

The first thing to go would be the ridiculous 9-month schedule. There would probably be a couple of breaks each year of 2-3 weeks duration, but a 12 month schedule would be de riguer.

The daily schedule would also be subject to radical change. No competent contractor would rely on something as speculative as "homework" for any significant portion of the process. Writing, math, and other exercises would take place at the school during an extended workday, and probably be accomplished on computer monitors, with teachers observing remotely. "Home study" would also probably be replaced by something more interactive, so that students would have no real option but to do it. Parents and students would love the idea of "no homework," and parents would love the idea that their kids are in school until 5pm, but the kids would dislike the longer school days. Tough shit.

Discipline would farmed out to a quasi-military arm of the local constabulary, which would have a "soft" but permanent presence on campus, and be available on a moment's notice for significantly disruptive behavior.

Special Ed might be contracted separately, though with shared facilities.

School sports and "extracurricular activities" would be gone. School facilities might be made available after school hours for such foolishness (sponsored by neighborhood associations), but it would not be allowed to interfere with school activities.

Strikes and other disruptive union activity would be prohibited by law. Otherwise, hiring and firing of staff, and other HR stuff would be subject to the same laws as any other private company.

We have a couple of "basket-case" school districts in the Pittsburgh area that might be good proving grounds for such an approach to education. It would be difficult to imagine this program doing any worse, or being any more expensive, than what they have now.

Because of the nature of public education now, it would be necessary to make some accommodations during a transition period from public to private education. Current teachers would have to be offered jobs - at least temporarily - by the chosen contractor. The sports leagues would have to accept the concept of allowing "club" teams to compete against "school" teams for a while.

As tenuous as this sort of transition may sound, there are templates all over the place for transitioning government departments to private companies. Water and wastewater treatment departments have been fully privatized. Garbage collection, public parks, golf courses, and so on. It could be done.

And wouldn't it be fun to get in on the ground floor and try it.
 
The first thing to go would be the ridiculous 9-month schedule. There would probably be a couple of breaks each year of 2-3 weeks duration, but a 12 month schedule would be de riguer.



No, I don't think so. Your speculative scenario would not change everything about society. Families would still like to go on vacations, it would still be hoter'n shit in many parts of the country, and there would still be a lot of students who count on money from those summer jobs to help support their families and/or save for college.
 
School sports and "extracurricular activities" would be gone. School facilities might be made available after school hours for such foolishness (sponsored by neighborhood associations), but it would not be allowed to interfere with school activities.


Ah, Don Poindexter is tilting at windmills again... :rolleyes:


Sorry Poindexter, but Americans would still be Americans despite the fact that you never got over your childhood trauma and inferiority complex.
 
No competent contractor would rely on something as speculative as "homework" for any significant portion of the process.



I see you are not very well informed about learning and education.
 
If education were private there would be no tenure, no social promotion and my personal favorite no grading on a curve.

Kids would actually flunk if they didn't understand the material.
 
Yup no tenure... so lower pay... teachers looking to get out asap... that's what we want yes.
 
We had private education for many years in the US, it could not accomplish what industrialized nations wanted..
 
Without grades (K-12) "social promotion" is a nonsense concept. The students continue learning at their own pace until they run out of time (18 years old), or master the material.

Compensation of teachers (like compensation of every other professional in the private sector) would be market based. People wil a lot of skills and experience and good references could command a high salary and "beginners" not so much. The school would still have to pay enough to attract high-quality applicants. And as I said, in the first few years, the Contractor would be compelled to offer employment to at least 90% of the existing teachers, and would be prohibited from reducing their pay or benefits (as is the case now when a private company takes over, for example, the municipal water treatment facilities).

Unkotare-person, do you have anything to say on any of this, or are your just being an asshole for no particular reason? Please spend your time trolling someplace else.
 
We had private education for many years in the US, it could not accomplish what industrialized nations wanted..
we're graduating people who are progressively dumber than any of their predecessors; we tried it the UFT Democrat Party way and it's failing our children. They deserve better, they deserve the best. Democrats are looking to create wards of the state

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Yup no tenure... so lower pay... teachers looking to get out asap... that's what we want yes.

Tenure and salary have nothing to do with each other.

Every person at any job should be able to be fired for poor performance. Tenure removes the motivation to keep performing.

Tell me how motivated would you be if you could never be canned no matter how shitty a job you did?
 
Ehh. I dunno.

On paper it sounds kind of cool but here is the core issue:

For-profit schools would be far more expensive than public education so either taxes are going to have to go up and/or higher out-of-pocket costs for families meaning that economically disadvantaged kids won't even get an education.

Teachers salaries would fall drastically to increase profit margins. This will mean lower-quality education in all but the richest of schools that cater specifically to the upper crust of society and will create a even wider disparity in education and have long-term, negative impacts on upward mobility for most of the country.

Without some loose standards for education, it will be harder for colleges to determine who makes the grade and who doesn't. This can mean that unqualified students end up going to college while the qualified are left by the wayside. We need some minimal standards by which to determine eligibility. This also means that as time goes on some schools will be preferred over others for college admission holding people hostage to whatever education is available in their area and if they are not in the "preferred" schools category for colleges, students start out at a disadvantage.

With regards to 12-month class rotation, it's a little much, but I could meet you halfway and allow for special, voluntary summer programs for those kids who wish to accelerate or supplement their education.

As far as standards go, Common Core goes way too far. In my opinion, standards should should be set in terms of curriculum:

  • Science - Biology/evolution, Chemistry, Physics, Climate science, Scientific method/experimentation
  • Math - Basic Math, Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Calculus, Statistics and Probability
  • Literature - Classic Lit, Contemporary Lit, Poetry, Creative writing, Argumentative Essays, Journalism, Philospohy
  • History - American History (real history, not watered down, revisionist history), Early Western Civilization, Far East History, African and Middle Eastern history
  • Technical Education - Computer Science, Programming, Electrical/Mechanical Engineering, Robotics, Architecture
  • Civics (this needs to make a comeback) - The Constitution, Judicial process, Criminal Justice, the electoral process, the legislative process
  • Health and Fitness - Physical Education, Nutrition, Basic health, Sex Ed
  • Creative Arts - Art, design, theater, music
  • Practical Applications (putting what you learn to work in the real world): Tax Prep, Banking/household budgets, Organizational skills, Debating, Critical thinking, Information filtering, Advertising/Marketing

In 12 years of schooling kids should be able to get exposure to all of this—adjusted for age of course—with specialization beginning at the high school level to allow students to follow what they are most passionate about.

After this, we need to establish a universal grading system because right now they are not ALL the same. An A in one school can be equivalent to a C in another so this should be standardized with the exceptions being schools designed specifically for gifted and talented students (read: geniuses) and special education (kids with behavioral and/or mental deficiencies).

Now we get to the controversial part: Testing.

As it is now, constant testing and stat tracking is killing the quality of education and puts a tremendous amount of pressure on young children, parents and teachers alike.

Quizzes should be a tool used by a teacher to determine the progress of his or her students as far as retention goes and not be used a measure of a teachers performance by outside agencies. If a teacher notices a kid is falling behind then he/she just needs to contact the parents and explain it to them and help the parents make decisions as to whether or not to place a child in remedial education to help them grasp the basics.

Mid-Terms and Finals should be the only two real tests kids take during each marking period. These will determine if the kids are really grasping the material or not.

Aptitude testing should be used to gauge a child's potential and help with class placement so they get an education that is on-par with their potential along with other kids at the same level. The kids should not even know what these tests are for to alleviate any potential stress. Tests like these should be given every two or three years or at a teacher's discretion if they feel a child is either outgrowing their current level or falling behind. These tests should not be placed on a student's record but rather used as tool, that through a collaboration of parents and educators, will help to insure that a child is getting education on par with their current abilities. This is important because kids develop and mature at different levels so they are far from equal and forcing them into a rigid structure which they may or may not be ready for is only doing them an injustice.

Thee are also social issues that need to be addressed:

Behavioral issues are also very important. Some kids have behavioral problems that cannot be fixed by a teacher and kids like this tend to take a disproportionate amount of a teacher's time. This not only puts undo pressure on a teacher to discipline a child in an environment where the slightest thing said can be blown out of proportion and cause overly sensitive parents to complain and/or sue, but it also has a negative impact on the rest of the class because their teacher is spending 25% of class time dealing with an unruly child. These kids need to be identified and placed into classes with teachers who specialize in educating kids with behavioral problems. All teachers should have some background in basic psychology to help identify these issues and get these kids into a program that will help them adjust to the school's social environment.

These are the kinds of standards I would like to see in public education. Privatization of public services had proven time and time again to increase costs and degrade the quality service. It will not work for education but I think there is room for compromise such as mandating that any private institution that contracts with a state or local government must adhere to the basic standards (what I mentioned above) and work in a non-profit capacity. IF that kind of compromise is reached, I can get on-board with that. Profit and education do not mix.
 
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Quizzes should be a tool used by a teacher to determine the progress of his or her students as far as retention goes and not be used a measure of a teachers performance by outside agencies.



A good quiz is as much a teaching tool as a means of evaluation. It can, therefore, be a reflection on teacher performance if properly interpreted.
 
Quizzes should be a tool used by a teacher to determine the progress of his or her students as far as retention goes and not be used a measure of a teachers performance by outside agencies.



A good quiz is as much a teaching tool as a means of evaluation. It can, therefore, be a reflection on teacher performance if properly interpreted.

....and there is the rub. What is properly interpreted? What if, out of a class of 20 kids, 4 kids fail a given quiz, 6 get Cs, 8 get Bs and 2 get As? How can this reflect a teacher's performance? Is she failing some kids over others? Does she play favorites? Of the kids that failed, was it because of lack of mental development, immaturity for their age, behavior issues? Could the Cs have done better if she did a better job or is that the best those kids could do? What about the Bs? Do we just average down to the median grade and and use that as a basis for performance or can we dismiss the failing grades because of issues beyond education? What are the IQs of these kids? How many boys? Girls?

Get where I am going here. There is no mathematical way to accurately depict a teacher's performance because there are too many factors that cannot be numeralized and placed in a spread sheet.

Quizzes can give the teacher information about what kids may need additional help or remedial classes or help identify kids who are very bright and need a more accelerated learning program.

Tests, on the other hand, should be a better indicator because if the teacher is quizzing and identifying kids who are struggling for extra help and weeding out the behavior problems the median grade will be relatively high.
 
Quizzes should be a tool used by a teacher to determine the progress of his or her students as far as retention goes and not be used a measure of a teachers performance by outside agencies.



A good quiz is as much a teaching tool as a means of evaluation. It can, therefore, be a reflection on teacher performance if properly interpreted.

....and there is the rub. What is properly interpreted?


Viewed in context as part of an overall evaluation of practices and results. Notes on each student should be kept daily, supervisors should observe classroom practices regularly, and teachers should chart their own progress as well as that of their students.
 

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