Police: Man killed in home by Aurora PD Monday morning had fatally shot intruder minutes earlier

[Brain357]

AURORA, Colo. – Police confirmed Monday afternoon that the man they shot and killed early Monday morning is believed to have shot and killed another man who had broken into his home minutes earlier.

“Officers arrived to a very chaotic and violent scene,” Aurora Police Chief Nick Metz wrote in a news release issued Monday afternoon.

Metz said officers who arrived at the scene heard gunshots inside the home and ran into an armed man. An officer shot the man, who died at an area hospital.

After clearing the scene, according to Metz, officers found a juvenile injured inside and a man shot dead on the bathroom floor. The child was taken to a hospital for “serious, but non-life-threatening injuries” caused by the intruder, he said.

Both men’s identities will be released by the Adams County Coroner’s Office, Metz said. The officer who shot the resident of the home is on standard paid administrative leave.

Police: Man killed in home by Aurora PD Monday morning had fatally shot intruder minutes earlier

A sad incident. But it really shows what happens when too many people are armed. Imagine police responding to a mass shooting with lots of armed individuals.

There are 600 million guns in private hands. 17 million people carry guns for self defense.

According to the CDC 2.4 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rape, robbery and murder.

According to the Department of Justice, they believe that number is 1.5 million times a year.

And you found one case where the confusion results in a death...

And you think that is an intelligent post?

One example of many. Please link the studies you claim exist.

If there is so much defending going on, why is our homicide rate 4-5X that of countries with strong gun control?

Because if those people didn't have their legal guns to stop those rapes, robberies and murders our violent crime rate would be higher than Britains....Britains violent crime rate is higher than ours after they banned and confiscated guns......

Do you want 2.4 million more women raped, more robberies and more murders?

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

The CDC and Dept of Justice never did studies. Stop the lies or link to them.

Here...the CDC studied gun self defense 3 years in a row........

SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.



This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

Kleck did the study, and he did the numbers wrong again. So no, the CDC did not do a study. If you are posting, you are lying. Sad.

 

[Brain357]

AURORA, Colo. – Police confirmed Monday afternoon that the man they shot and killed early Monday morning is believed to have shot and killed another man who had broken into his home minutes earlier.

“Officers arrived to a very chaotic and violent scene,” Aurora Police Chief Nick Metz wrote in a news release issued Monday afternoon.

Metz said officers who arrived at the scene heard gunshots inside the home and ran into an armed man. An officer shot the man, who died at an area hospital.

After clearing the scene, according to Metz, officers found a juvenile injured inside and a man shot dead on the bathroom floor. The child was taken to a hospital for “serious, but non-life-threatening injuries” caused by the intruder, he said.

Both men’s identities will be released by the Adams County Coroner’s Office, Metz said. The officer who shot the resident of the home is on standard paid administrative leave.

Police: Man killed in home by Aurora PD Monday morning had fatally shot intruder minutes earlier

A sad incident. But it really shows what happens when too many people are armed. Imagine police responding to a mass shooting with lots of armed individuals.

There are 600 million guns in private hands. 17 million people carry guns for self defense.

According to the CDC 2.4 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rape, robbery and murder.

According to the Department of Justice, they believe that number is 1.5 million times a year.

And you found one case where the confusion results in a death...

And you think that is an intelligent post?

One example of many. Please link the studies you claim exist.

If there is so much defending going on, why is our homicide rate 4-5X that of countries with strong gun control?

You mention Dallas...which is in Texas....where law abiding gun owners have lots of guns......

ICYMI: CNN Went Off On Texas' Open Carry Law During Their Dallas Shooting Coverage

Texas, especially Dallas, has seen their crime rates hit record lows. In Dallas, the murder rate fell to its lowest levels since the city started taking crime data in 1930. Overall, the Lone Star State, through criminal justice reform, has reduced crime levels to their lowest rates since 1968 (via Dallas Morning News):



Dallas’ 2014 murder rate was its lowest since 1930 — the year Bonnie and Clyde met at a West Dallas house party.


And the Dallas Police Department’s preliminary count of 116 murders last year — there is one unexplained death awaiting a ruling — would be the lowest yearly murder tally since 1965. It’s also a notable drop from the 143 murders in 2013 and it’s fewer than half the murders recorded in 2004.

Police officials say their crime-fighting and crime-prevention strategies have played a major role in reducing homicides, the rarest of major crimes. Others say outside variables — medical advancements, changing demographics and better social services — deserve much of the credit.

Even with this dreadful shooting in Dallas, the city has only seen one other shooting involving police officers, and that didn’t result in a fatality on either side. The crime rate in Texas is still dropping too (via Texas Tribune):



Urban crime rates are at historic lows across the country, and in Texas they are still dropping, according to an analysis of crime rates in the 30 largest U.S cities.


Between 2014 and 2015, the five largest cities in Texas saw an average drop of 6.5 percent in the overall crime rate per 100,000 residents, according to the analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law. Among the nation’s top cities, crime rates remained stagnant during this time, dropping by only 0.1 percent.

With an almost 10 percent drop in its crime rate, Austin saw the sharpest decrease in Texas and the nation.

Murders up since 2015:
166 murders: The heartbreaking year that shattered these Dallas families

Yes.....we know, because President Obama and Black Lives Matter attacked our police on a national level.....that created the Ferguson Effect...... where the police stopped Pro active policing, and allowed gang members to do their business without interference....those murders are on you and obama...and Black Lives Matter...

Hard Data, Hollow Protests

The reason for the current increase is what I have called the Ferguson Effect.

Cops are backing off of proactive policing in high-crime minority neighborhoods, and criminals are becoming emboldened.

Having been told incessantly by politicians, the media, and Black Lives Matter activists that they are bigoted for getting out of their cars and questioning someone loitering on a known drug corner at 2 AM, many officers are instead just driving by. Such stops are discretionary; cops don’t have to make them. And when political elites demonize the police for just such proactive policing, we shouldn’t be surprised when cops get the message and do less of it.

Seventy-two percent of the nation’s officers say that they and their colleagues are now less willing to stop and question suspicious persons, according to a Pew Research poll released in January. The reason is the persistent anti-cop climate.

Four studies came out in 2016 alone rebutting the charge that police shootings are racially biased. If there is a bias in police shootings, it works in favor of blacks and against whites. That truth has not stopped the ongoing demonization of the police—including, now, by many of the country’s ignorant professional athletes. The toll will be felt, as always, in the inner city, by the thousands of law-abiding people there who desperately want more police protection.

And more on the Ferguson effect...

Homicide Rate Is Rising? Do Tell!



While not trying to ascribe a cause, CNN does acknowledge that the uptick beginning in 2015 has been concentrated in a handful of cities.

Steve Sailer draws the obvious conclusion:

Hmmhmmmh … Chicago, Baltimore, and St. Louis … Weren’t those in the news? Something to do with Black Lives Matter?

The obvious cause for the increase in murders during the last years of the Obama administration was the Black Lives Matter movement, which was enthusiastically endorsed by the White House. It led to numerous unfair attacks on law enforcement, which in turn caused officers to police less aggressively. When police officers are afraid to do their jobs for fear of career-ending charges of racism, criminals prosper. Baltimore is the most notorious example, but the same phenomenon has happened in other cities where law enforcement has been besieged by the Left.

-----

Does that have anything to do with the recent spike in homicides? Were carry laws loosened in Chicago, Baltimore, Kansas City or St. Louis prior to the increase? Are the states where murders spiked after 2014 the ones where the law permitted residents to “carry a loaded concealed gun with you…with no license”?

No. What did change in the last years of the Obama administration? The obvious answer is, the Black Lives Matter movement and the associated attacks on law enforcement.

Yes, too many guns increases crime. Our police are often shot so they shoot a lot of people themselves. This leads to unrest and crime. Too many guns is the cause, these things don't happen where there is strong gun control.

 

[martybegan]

Sooooo...what you are saying is this...


The law abiding gun owner managed to effectively use their gun to stop a home invader. They called the police, while the situation was under control....

The police showed up, lost control and killed the innocent man. So where exactly is this the problem of a law abiding gun owner who actually used his gun responsibly...while the police fucked up?

Your thread actually shows that of the two, the police should lose their guns, not the law abiding gun owner.

Our police are very quick to shoot people because they are themselves often shot. These things don't happen where there is strong gun control. Police rarely are shot and rarely shoot people in countries with strong gun control.

Our police are not "often shot". The number of police officers actually shot or shot at over their careers is actually quite small.

It is a lot relative to other countries. Happens here weekly. Most countries have deaths in single digits.

Nice goalpost move there dippy.

How else will you look at it if not compared to other countries? A week rarely goes by without law enforcement shot and killed. These events are rare in countries with strong gun control.

You said cops here are "often" shot, and that is clearly a lie. Again, plenty of police officers go through their entire careers without being shot at once.

 

[2aguy]

AURORA, Colo. – Police confirmed Monday afternoon that the man they shot and killed early Monday morning is believed to have shot and killed another man who had broken into his home minutes earlier.

“Officers arrived to a very chaotic and violent scene,” Aurora Police Chief Nick Metz wrote in a news release issued Monday afternoon.

Metz said officers who arrived at the scene heard gunshots inside the home and ran into an armed man. An officer shot the man, who died at an area hospital.

After clearing the scene, according to Metz, officers found a juvenile injured inside and a man shot dead on the bathroom floor. The child was taken to a hospital for “serious, but non-life-threatening injuries” caused by the intruder, he said.

Both men’s identities will be released by the Adams County Coroner’s Office, Metz said. The officer who shot the resident of the home is on standard paid administrative leave.

Police: Man killed in home by Aurora PD Monday morning had fatally shot intruder minutes earlier

A sad incident. But it really shows what happens when too many people are armed. Imagine police responding to a mass shooting with lots of armed individuals.

There are 600 million guns in private hands. 17 million people carry guns for self defense.

According to the CDC 2.4 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rape, robbery and murder.

According to the Department of Justice, they believe that number is 1.5 million times a year.

And you found one case where the confusion results in a death...

And you think that is an intelligent post?

One example of many. Please link the studies you claim exist.

If there is so much defending going on, why is our homicide rate 4-5X that of countries with strong gun control?

You mention Dallas...which is in Texas....where law abiding gun owners have lots of guns......

ICYMI: CNN Went Off On Texas' Open Carry Law During Their Dallas Shooting Coverage

Texas, especially Dallas, has seen their crime rates hit record lows. In Dallas, the murder rate fell to its lowest levels since the city started taking crime data in 1930. Overall, the Lone Star State, through criminal justice reform, has reduced crime levels to their lowest rates since 1968 (via Dallas Morning News):



Dallas’ 2014 murder rate was its lowest since 1930 — the year Bonnie and Clyde met at a West Dallas house party.


And the Dallas Police Department’s preliminary count of 116 murders last year — there is one unexplained death awaiting a ruling — would be the lowest yearly murder tally since 1965. It’s also a notable drop from the 143 murders in 2013 and it’s fewer than half the murders recorded in 2004.

Police officials say their crime-fighting and crime-prevention strategies have played a major role in reducing homicides, the rarest of major crimes. Others say outside variables — medical advancements, changing demographics and better social services — deserve much of the credit.

Even with this dreadful shooting in Dallas, the city has only seen one other shooting involving police officers, and that didn’t result in a fatality on either side. The crime rate in Texas is still dropping too (via Texas Tribune):



Urban crime rates are at historic lows across the country, and in Texas they are still dropping, according to an analysis of crime rates in the 30 largest U.S cities.


Between 2014 and 2015, the five largest cities in Texas saw an average drop of 6.5 percent in the overall crime rate per 100,000 residents, according to the analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law. Among the nation’s top cities, crime rates remained stagnant during this time, dropping by only 0.1 percent.

With an almost 10 percent drop in its crime rate, Austin saw the sharpest decrease in Texas and the nation.

Murders up since 2015:
166 murders: The heartbreaking year that shattered these Dallas families

And what caused the increase....shifting police resources...from your link...

166 murders: The heartbreaking year that shattered these Dallas families

The city's clearance for its homicide detectives was significantly better this year, topping 70 percent. Last year, the city's homicide clearance rate was 49 percent.

Last year, the city's then-interim police Chief David Pughes blamed witnesses being unwilling to come forward for the city's low clearance rate.

But police sources familiar with last year's low clearance rate largely blame it on detectives and supervisors being forced to work in patrol for periods of time, taking their attention away from working their cases. Those sources say the situation improved drastically once homicide detectives were no longer required to do back-to-patrol stints.

 

[Weatherman2020]

A sad incident. But it really shows what happens when too many people are armed. Imagine police responding to a mass shooting with lots of armed individuals.

It shows what happens when you get cops involved entering a situation where they don't know a thing going on and just shoot anyone with a gun even if it's not pointed at them. Things were under control until police arrived. Lastly, if you had a lot of armed individuals, you wouldn't have a mass shooting in the first place; there has never been a single mass shooting where it wasn't just one armed assailant against a bunch of UNARMED people. If everyone were actually armed, the attacker never would have attacked, but even if he did, they would all be shooting back at ONE THING: the attacker.

As for the police, Parkland has shown they'd just wait outside smoking cigarettes waiting for a SWAT team to arrive. Guns save lives. Police shoot wantonly because they have no accountability.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is a bunch of armed victims:
2016 shooting of Dallas police officers - Wikipedia
On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded.

And you have been beaten on this one over and over.

The man attacked from an ambush with surprise..... he was quickly cornered and contained...

What you don't want to talk about is that there were dozens of armed citizens in that march. Many had AR-15 rifles on their shoulders during that march and when the attack happened, the police did not shoot them, they did not shoot the police, the armed citizens moved out of the way and let the Black Lives Matter shooter be dealt with by the police..

So you just negated your original post..... a mass public shooting, with dozens of armed citizens, many with AR-15 rifles, and no law abiding gun owner was shot by mistake.....

He killed 5 armed officers and injured 9 other armed officers. Yes the victims were all very ARMED.

Versus the 59 dead 859 injured unarmed people in Vegas.

You lose again.

 

[2aguy]

There are 600 million guns in private hands. 17 million people carry guns for self defense.

According to the CDC 2.4 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rape, robbery and murder.

According to the Department of Justice, they believe that number is 1.5 million times a year.

And you found one case where the confusion results in a death...

And you think that is an intelligent post?

One example of many. Please link the studies you claim exist.

If there is so much defending going on, why is our homicide rate 4-5X that of countries with strong gun control?

You mention Dallas...which is in Texas....where law abiding gun owners have lots of guns......

ICYMI: CNN Went Off On Texas' Open Carry Law During Their Dallas Shooting Coverage

Texas, especially Dallas, has seen their crime rates hit record lows. In Dallas, the murder rate fell to its lowest levels since the city started taking crime data in 1930. Overall, the Lone Star State, through criminal justice reform, has reduced crime levels to their lowest rates since 1968 (via Dallas Morning News):



Dallas’ 2014 murder rate was its lowest since 1930 — the year Bonnie and Clyde met at a West Dallas house party.


And the Dallas Police Department’s preliminary count of 116 murders last year — there is one unexplained death awaiting a ruling — would be the lowest yearly murder tally since 1965. It’s also a notable drop from the 143 murders in 2013 and it’s fewer than half the murders recorded in 2004.

Police officials say their crime-fighting and crime-prevention strategies have played a major role in reducing homicides, the rarest of major crimes. Others say outside variables — medical advancements, changing demographics and better social services — deserve much of the credit.

Even with this dreadful shooting in Dallas, the city has only seen one other shooting involving police officers, and that didn’t result in a fatality on either side. The crime rate in Texas is still dropping too (via Texas Tribune):



Urban crime rates are at historic lows across the country, and in Texas they are still dropping, according to an analysis of crime rates in the 30 largest U.S cities.


Between 2014 and 2015, the five largest cities in Texas saw an average drop of 6.5 percent in the overall crime rate per 100,000 residents, according to the analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law. Among the nation’s top cities, crime rates remained stagnant during this time, dropping by only 0.1 percent.

With an almost 10 percent drop in its crime rate, Austin saw the sharpest decrease in Texas and the nation.

Murders up since 2015:
166 murders: The heartbreaking year that shattered these Dallas families

Yes.....we know, because President Obama and Black Lives Matter attacked our police on a national level.....that created the Ferguson Effect...... where the police stopped Pro active policing, and allowed gang members to do their business without interference....those murders are on you and obama...and Black Lives Matter...

Hard Data, Hollow Protests

The reason for the current increase is what I have called the Ferguson Effect.

Cops are backing off of proactive policing in high-crime minority neighborhoods, and criminals are becoming emboldened.

Having been told incessantly by politicians, the media, and Black Lives Matter activists that they are bigoted for getting out of their cars and questioning someone loitering on a known drug corner at 2 AM, many officers are instead just driving by. Such stops are discretionary; cops don’t have to make them. And when political elites demonize the police for just such proactive policing, we shouldn’t be surprised when cops get the message and do less of it.

Seventy-two percent of the nation’s officers say that they and their colleagues are now less willing to stop and question suspicious persons, according to a Pew Research poll released in January. The reason is the persistent anti-cop climate.

Four studies came out in 2016 alone rebutting the charge that police shootings are racially biased. If there is a bias in police shootings, it works in favor of blacks and against whites. That truth has not stopped the ongoing demonization of the police—including, now, by many of the country’s ignorant professional athletes. The toll will be felt, as always, in the inner city, by the thousands of law-abiding people there who desperately want more police protection.

And more on the Ferguson effect...

Homicide Rate Is Rising? Do Tell!



While not trying to ascribe a cause, CNN does acknowledge that the uptick beginning in 2015 has been concentrated in a handful of cities.

Steve Sailer draws the obvious conclusion:

Hmmhmmmh … Chicago, Baltimore, and St. Louis … Weren’t those in the news? Something to do with Black Lives Matter?

The obvious cause for the increase in murders during the last years of the Obama administration was the Black Lives Matter movement, which was enthusiastically endorsed by the White House. It led to numerous unfair attacks on law enforcement, which in turn caused officers to police less aggressively. When police officers are afraid to do their jobs for fear of career-ending charges of racism, criminals prosper. Baltimore is the most notorious example, but the same phenomenon has happened in other cities where law enforcement has been besieged by the Left.

-----

Does that have anything to do with the recent spike in homicides? Were carry laws loosened in Chicago, Baltimore, Kansas City or St. Louis prior to the increase? Are the states where murders spiked after 2014 the ones where the law permitted residents to “carry a loaded concealed gun with you…with no license”?

No. What did change in the last years of the Obama administration? The obvious answer is, the Black Lives Matter movement and the associated attacks on law enforcement.

Yes, too many guns increases crime. Our police are often shot so they shoot a lot of people themselves. This leads to unrest and crime. Too many guns is the cause, these things don't happen where there is strong gun control.

Yeah....25 years of more Americans owning and carrying guns shows you are pretty stupid....

And now for the truth....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

 

[2aguy]

Sooooo...what you are saying is this...


The law abiding gun owner managed to effectively use their gun to stop a home invader. They called the police, while the situation was under control....

The police showed up, lost control and killed the innocent man. So where exactly is this the problem of a law abiding gun owner who actually used his gun responsibly...while the police fucked up?

Your thread actually shows that of the two, the police should lose their guns, not the law abiding gun owner.

Our police are very quick to shoot people because they are themselves often shot. These things don't happen where there is strong gun control. Police rarely are shot and rarely shoot people in countries with strong gun control.

Our police are not "often shot". The number of police officers actually shot or shot at over their careers is actually quite small.

It is a lot relative to other countries. Happens here weekly. Most countries have deaths in single digits.

Nice goalpost move there dippy.

How else will you look at it if not compared to other countries? A week rarely goes by without law enforcement shot and killed. These events are rare in countries with strong gun control.

Because their criminals don't murder police officers with their illegal guns...they have guns, they just don't use them to murder police officers.....

 

[Aba Incieni]

A sad incident. But it really shows what happens when too many people are armed. Imagine police responding to a mass shooting with lots of armed individuals.

It shows what happens when you get cops involved entering a situation where they don't know a thing going on and just shoot anyone with a gun even if it's not pointed at them. Things were under control until police arrived. Lastly, if you had a lot of armed individuals, you wouldn't have a mass shooting in the first place; there has never been a single mass shooting where it wasn't just one armed assailant against a bunch of UNARMED people. If everyone were actually armed, the attacker never would have attacked, but even if he did, they would all be shooting back at ONE THING: the attacker.

As for the police, Parkland has shown they'd just wait outside smoking cigarettes waiting for a SWAT team to arrive. Guns save lives. Police shoot wantonly because they have no accountability.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is a bunch of armed victims:
2016 shooting of Dallas police officers - Wikipedia
On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded.

Good point! BLM is a terrorist group that should be rounded up.

You realize many cop killers are just angry white gun owners?

Heteros, too.

According to your OP we should arm the citizens and disarm the cops.

 

[Brain357]

A sad incident. But it really shows what happens when too many people are armed. Imagine police responding to a mass shooting with lots of armed individuals.

It shows what happens when you get cops involved entering a situation where they don't know a thing going on and just shoot anyone with a gun even if it's not pointed at them. Things were under control until police arrived. Lastly, if you had a lot of armed individuals, you wouldn't have a mass shooting in the first place; there has never been a single mass shooting where it wasn't just one armed assailant against a bunch of UNARMED people. If everyone were actually armed, the attacker never would have attacked, but even if he did, they would all be shooting back at ONE THING: the attacker.

As for the police, Parkland has shown they'd just wait outside smoking cigarettes waiting for a SWAT team to arrive. Guns save lives. Police shoot wantonly because they have no accountability.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is a bunch of armed victims:
2016 shooting of Dallas police officers - Wikipedia
On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded.

And you have been beaten on this one over and over.

The man attacked from an ambush with surprise..... he was quickly cornered and contained...

What you don't want to talk about is that there were dozens of armed citizens in that march. Many had AR-15 rifles on their shoulders during that march and when the attack happened, the police did not shoot them, they did not shoot the police, the armed citizens moved out of the way and let the Black Lives Matter shooter be dealt with by the police..

So you just negated your original post..... a mass public shooting, with dozens of armed citizens, many with AR-15 rifles, and no law abiding gun owner was shot by mistake.....

He killed 5 armed officers and injured 9 other armed officers. Yes the victims were all very ARMED.

Versus the 59 dead 859 injured unarmed people in Vegas.

You lose again.

There were plenty of armed people there including law enforcement, they just couldn't do anything about it. The shooter had too much firepower.

 

[2aguy]

There are 600 million guns in private hands. 17 million people carry guns for self defense.

According to the CDC 2.4 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rape, robbery and murder.

According to the Department of Justice, they believe that number is 1.5 million times a year.

And you found one case where the confusion results in a death...

And you think that is an intelligent post?

One example of many. Please link the studies you claim exist.

If there is so much defending going on, why is our homicide rate 4-5X that of countries with strong gun control?

Because if those people didn't have their legal guns to stop those rapes, robberies and murders our violent crime rate would be higher than Britains....Britains violent crime rate is higher than ours after they banned and confiscated guns......

Do you want 2.4 million more women raped, more robberies and more murders?

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

The CDC and Dept of Justice never did studies. Stop the lies or link to them.

Here...the CDC studied gun self defense 3 years in a row........

SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.



This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

Kleck did the study, and he did the numbers wrong again. So no, the CDC did not do a study. If you are posting, you are lying. Sad.

Moron.....the CDC did the research 3 years in a row, Kleck analyzed the research since the CDC hid it. The CDC got caught hiding it's research and Kleck exposed them...I know, that hurts your anti gun lies...but you can't defeat the truth.

 

[Brain357]

Our police are very quick to shoot people because they are themselves often shot. These things don't happen where there is strong gun control. Police rarely are shot and rarely shoot people in countries with strong gun control.

Our police are not "often shot". The number of police officers actually shot or shot at over their careers is actually quite small.

It is a lot relative to other countries. Happens here weekly. Most countries have deaths in single digits.

Nice goalpost move there dippy.

How else will you look at it if not compared to other countries? A week rarely goes by without law enforcement shot and killed. These events are rare in countries with strong gun control.

You said cops here are "often" shot, and that is clearly a lie. Again, plenty of police officers go through their entire careers without being shot at once.

Yes, often relative to other countries. What happens here weekly, is really rare in countries with strong gun control. Just like our police shoot a lot more people.
US cops killed 100 times more than German police in 2015

 

[2aguy]

It shows what happens when you get cops involved entering a situation where they don't know a thing going on and just shoot anyone with a gun even if it's not pointed at them. Things were under control until police arrived. Lastly, if you had a lot of armed individuals, you wouldn't have a mass shooting in the first place; there has never been a single mass shooting where it wasn't just one armed assailant against a bunch of UNARMED people. If everyone were actually armed, the attacker never would have attacked, but even if he did, they would all be shooting back at ONE THING: the attacker.

As for the police, Parkland has shown they'd just wait outside smoking cigarettes waiting for a SWAT team to arrive. Guns save lives. Police shoot wantonly because they have no accountability.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is a bunch of armed victims:
2016 shooting of Dallas police officers - Wikipedia
On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded.

And you have been beaten on this one over and over.

The man attacked from an ambush with surprise..... he was quickly cornered and contained...

What you don't want to talk about is that there were dozens of armed citizens in that march. Many had AR-15 rifles on their shoulders during that march and when the attack happened, the police did not shoot them, they did not shoot the police, the armed citizens moved out of the way and let the Black Lives Matter shooter be dealt with by the police..

So you just negated your original post..... a mass public shooting, with dozens of armed citizens, many with AR-15 rifles, and no law abiding gun owner was shot by mistake.....

He killed 5 armed officers and injured 9 other armed officers. Yes the victims were all very ARMED.

Versus the 59 dead 859 injured unarmed people in Vegas.

You lose again.

There were plenty of armed people there including law enforcement, they just couldn't do anything about it. The shooter had too much firepower.

Moron..... now you are just devolving into your usual Troll state. The shooter shot from a concealed and fortified position...into a tightly packed crowd of over 22,000 people who initially had no idea they were under attack...... The police stacked up outside the door and didn't go in...another failure of your god, "Government."

 

[Brain357]

One example of many. Please link the studies you claim exist.

If there is so much defending going on, why is our homicide rate 4-5X that of countries with strong gun control?

Because if those people didn't have their legal guns to stop those rapes, robberies and murders our violent crime rate would be higher than Britains....Britains violent crime rate is higher than ours after they banned and confiscated guns......

Do you want 2.4 million more women raped, more robberies and more murders?

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

The CDC and Dept of Justice never did studies. Stop the lies or link to them.

Here...the CDC studied gun self defense 3 years in a row........

SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.



This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

Kleck did the study, and he did the numbers wrong again. So no, the CDC did not do a study. If you are posting, you are lying. Sad.

Moron.....the CDC did the research 3 years in a row, Kleck analyzed the research since the CDC hid it. The CDC got caught hiding it's research and Kleck exposed them...I know, that hurts your anti gun lies...but you can't defeat the truth.

The CDC did a survey, they did not do a study on the survey in regards to DGU, you are lying again. Kleck tried to study it and messed up the number again.

 

[2aguy]

Our police are not "often shot". The number of police officers actually shot or shot at over their careers is actually quite small.

It is a lot relative to other countries. Happens here weekly. Most countries have deaths in single digits.

Nice goalpost move there dippy.

How else will you look at it if not compared to other countries? A week rarely goes by without law enforcement shot and killed. These events are rare in countries with strong gun control.

You said cops here are "often" shot, and that is clearly a lie. Again, plenty of police officers go through their entire careers without being shot at once.

Yes, often relative to other countries. What happens here weekly, is really rare in countries with strong gun control. Just like our police shoot a lot more people.
US cops killed 100 times more than German police in 2015

German criminals don't shoot at police....our criminals do....German criminals have lots of guns, they just don't cross the line and murder police officers.

Perhaps you could teach an ethics class to our inner city criminals to teach them to not murder cops?

 

[Brain357]

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. Here is a bunch of armed victims:
2016 shooting of Dallas police officers - Wikipedia
On July 7, 2016, Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed and fired upon a group of police officers in Dallas, Texas, killing five officers and injuring nine others. Two civilians were also wounded.

And you have been beaten on this one over and over.

The man attacked from an ambush with surprise..... he was quickly cornered and contained...

What you don't want to talk about is that there were dozens of armed citizens in that march. Many had AR-15 rifles on their shoulders during that march and when the attack happened, the police did not shoot them, they did not shoot the police, the armed citizens moved out of the way and let the Black Lives Matter shooter be dealt with by the police..

So you just negated your original post..... a mass public shooting, with dozens of armed citizens, many with AR-15 rifles, and no law abiding gun owner was shot by mistake.....

He killed 5 armed officers and injured 9 other armed officers. Yes the victims were all very ARMED.

Versus the 59 dead 859 injured unarmed people in Vegas.

You lose again.

There were plenty of armed people there including law enforcement, they just couldn't do anything about it. The shooter had too much firepower.

Moron..... now you are just devolving into your usual Troll state. The shooter shot from a concealed and fortified position...into a tightly packed crowd of over 22,000 people who initially had no idea they were under attack...... The police stacked up outside the door and didn't go in...another failure of your god, "Government."

And since the shooter had so much firepower, so many died and were injured.

 

[2aguy]

Because if those people didn't have their legal guns to stop those rapes, robberies and murders our violent crime rate would be higher than Britains....Britains violent crime rate is higher than ours after they banned and confiscated guns......

Do you want 2.4 million more women raped, more robberies and more murders?

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

The CDC and Dept of Justice never did studies. Stop the lies or link to them.

Here...the CDC studied gun self defense 3 years in a row........

SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.



This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

Kleck did the study, and he did the numbers wrong again. So no, the CDC did not do a study. If you are posting, you are lying. Sad.

Moron.....the CDC did the research 3 years in a row, Kleck analyzed the research since the CDC hid it. The CDC got caught hiding it's research and Kleck exposed them...I know, that hurts your anti gun lies...but you can't defeat the truth.

The CDC did a survey, they did not do a study on the survey in regards to DGU, you are lying again. Kleck tried to study it and messed up the number again.

Moron..... they asked people in their survey if they used guns for self defense......3 years in a row, you dumb ass...

 

[Brain357]

It is a lot relative to other countries. Happens here weekly. Most countries have deaths in single digits.

Nice goalpost move there dippy.

How else will you look at it if not compared to other countries? A week rarely goes by without law enforcement shot and killed. These events are rare in countries with strong gun control.

You said cops here are "often" shot, and that is clearly a lie. Again, plenty of police officers go through their entire careers without being shot at once.

Yes, often relative to other countries. What happens here weekly, is really rare in countries with strong gun control. Just like our police shoot a lot more people.
US cops killed 100 times more than German police in 2015

German criminals don't shoot at police....our criminals do....German criminals have lots of guns, they just don't cross the line and murder police officers.

Perhaps you could teach an ethics class to our inner city criminals to teach them to not murder cops?

Yes, we have too many guns.

 

[2aguy]

And you have been beaten on this one over and over.

The man attacked from an ambush with surprise..... he was quickly cornered and contained...

What you don't want to talk about is that there were dozens of armed citizens in that march. Many had AR-15 rifles on their shoulders during that march and when the attack happened, the police did not shoot them, they did not shoot the police, the armed citizens moved out of the way and let the Black Lives Matter shooter be dealt with by the police..

So you just negated your original post..... a mass public shooting, with dozens of armed citizens, many with AR-15 rifles, and no law abiding gun owner was shot by mistake.....

He killed 5 armed officers and injured 9 other armed officers. Yes the victims were all very ARMED.

Versus the 59 dead 859 injured unarmed people in Vegas.

You lose again.

There were plenty of armed people there including law enforcement, they just couldn't do anything about it. The shooter had too much firepower.

Moron..... now you are just devolving into your usual Troll state. The shooter shot from a concealed and fortified position...into a tightly packed crowd of over 22,000 people who initially had no idea they were under attack...... The police stacked up outside the door and didn't go in...another failure of your god, "Government."

And since the shooter had so much firepower, so many died and were injured.

No.... he had a tactical advantage and surprise against unarmed, tightly packed victims....

 

[Brain357]

The CDC and Dept of Justice never did studies. Stop the lies or link to them.

Here...the CDC studied gun self defense 3 years in a row........

SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.

CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.



This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

Kleck did the study, and he did the numbers wrong again. So no, the CDC did not do a study. If you are posting, you are lying. Sad.

Moron.....the CDC did the research 3 years in a row, Kleck analyzed the research since the CDC hid it. The CDC got caught hiding it's research and Kleck exposed them...I know, that hurts your anti gun lies...but you can't defeat the truth.

The CDC did a survey, they did not do a study on the survey in regards to DGU, you are lying again. Kleck tried to study it and messed up the number again.

Moron..... they asked people in their survey if they used guns for self defense......3 years in a row, you dumb ass...

That is a survey, not a study. And since kleck messed up his study, clearly it's not so easy to study.

 

[2aguy]

Nice goalpost move there dippy.

How else will you look at it if not compared to other countries? A week rarely goes by without law enforcement shot and killed. These events are rare in countries with strong gun control.

You said cops here are "often" shot, and that is clearly a lie. Again, plenty of police officers go through their entire careers without being shot at once.

Yes, often relative to other countries. What happens here weekly, is really rare in countries with strong gun control. Just like our police shoot a lot more people.
US cops killed 100 times more than German police in 2015

German criminals don't shoot at police....our criminals do....German criminals have lots of guns, they just don't cross the line and murder police officers.

Perhaps you could teach an ethics class to our inner city criminals to teach them to not murder cops?

Yes, we have too many guns.

No... we have democrats like you who keep letting violent, repeat gun offenders out of prison.... if you morons would stop doing that, they wouldn't be murdering people ....