Pew: Americans giving up on God, miracles

[Meriweather]

Some of them were Deists too, that's also no big secret.

So your opinion is that some founding fathers wanted an "infusion of religious ideals", and you have decided that means religion should influence our govt, despite nothing in our laws stating it should. What religion is that exactly? And what is the list of ideals? This is important so please be precise, no vague answers.

Start with the fact that the Founding Fathers were from an age where Church and State were one. Church was, in essence, a branch of the government. The Founding Fathers removed Church Bureaucracy from State Bureaucracy. The State did not have to check or get permission from any Church in order to conduct its business or ratify its laws. The State, simply because its members were affiliated with various religions/moral organizations would be permeated with morality and a sense of right and wrong.

Therefore, until it can be shown me where a Church bureaucracy is trying to entwine itself into the Federal bureaucracy, we have nothing to fear. Until a Church, or a religious group has muscled itself in to form a fourth branch of government, religious groups or people have no more power than any other business, corporation, club, or lobby when it comes to influencing the US Government--and probably less.

 

[Clement]

Americans don't want religion in their politics, and for good reason. The founders would agree, many were Deists that believed in God but not religions taking over government.

More accurately, the Founding Fathers agreed that government would not take over religion. There was to be a separation where government made no law regulating religion. On the other hand they fully embraced the idea that religious ideals would infuse into government because they did not see a democratic form of government lasting if its people did not remain moral, idealistic, and informed.

Where in our constitution is this "infusion of religious ideals" you speak of. And what religion and what ideals exactly?

It's in the same place "separation of church and state" is.

 

[presonorek]

Where in our constitution is this "infusion of religious ideals" you speak of. And what religion and what ideals exactly?

The elected congressmen can influence government in anyway not forbidden under the constitution. As weird as it sounds, the people who are elected to office have freedom of religion too. Read this excerpt from the Constitution.

"Article 1 Section. 2.

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen."

This is just one way to account for the infusion of religious ideals.

 

[presonorek]

Where in our constitution is this "infusion of religious ideals" you speak of. And what religion and what ideals exactly?

Freedom disappears when the people become immoral, decadent, indulgent and destructive. Once everybody ignores reality and the fragility of humanity then a police state must be instituted. There has to be peace and order. It can be acheived with an ultra violent police force or a couple of brainwashing religious fanatics. I choose the brainwashing religious fanatics. Let's get everybody's brain cleaned. There is no problem with clean thinking and a safe environment for everyone!

Let's let this infusion of religious ideals thrive in perpetuity. I don't want those police men shooting up my neighborhood on a Thursday afternoon. I'd rather those assholes in congress lecture me about morality.

Which one do you like? Assholes who make you feel bad or shooters with guns? I'll take the blabber mouths in congress that "violate the separation of church and state". It's way better in my opinion.

The average person doesn't know right from wrong. You may be above average but the above average people are a small minority. We got to keep those average people in check one way or another. The average person doesn't care about right and wrong.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Since repeated studies have shown that prayer works no better than chance, when I want something, I'll just flip a coin; it's just as effective.

 

[Blackrook]

Well, that would explain why things get worse every year, and nothing improves.

I struggle with my own faith, but I still believe everything the Catholic Church teaches is true.

What makes it difficult for me is that the Catholic Church is no longer consistent to it's own teachings.

I have gone to confession many times to confess a sin, only to have the priest tell me it's not really a sin.

I don't know how to describe the moral confusion is created in me when a priest tells me something I know is not true.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Since repeated studies have shown that prayer works no better than chance, when I want something, I'll just flip a coin; it's just as effective.

Atheists are often very aggressive when it comes to attacking Christianity, and one of the topics they often criticize is prayer. Since they believe (deny, lack belief, etc.,) that there is no God, therefore prayer cannot work--no matter what is said. The problem is that atheists who attack Christianity regarding prayer have three major problems. First, they need to deal with their own false assumptions that constrain their objectivity. Second, how would they judge if prayer works. Third, they don't understand how prayer works.

In the first case, atheists can only assume that God does not exist. They cannot know for sure that God does not exist because it is not possible to know all arguments and evidences for and against God's existence--which means there could be arguments and evidences they have not yet heard. So, ultimately, his position is held by faith--even if he wants to say it is an informed "faith." Once his belief is in place, all evidence and arguments for God must be filtered through that paradigm. Prayer, then, could not possibly work because it would mean that God existed.

Second, how would atheists judge whether or not prayer works? Do they want repeatable experiments and regular quantifiable data so that the efficacy of prayer can be tested and measured? That would be a problem. If prayer "A" resulted in effect "B," then we would see a correspondence of prayer and result--something the atheist could see and verify. But if this were the case, such a phenomena would not be a demonstration that God exists. Instead, it would be a demonstration that uttering certain words in certain patterns brings certain results. This would imply that a new property of the universe has been discovered, and that by saying certain words certain results occur. This would not demonstrate that God exists. Besides, we call this phenomena sorcery.

Third, prayer doesn't work the way the atheists imply it should. Biblically speaking, prayer is offered to a Living Being who, according to Christianity, works all things after the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11) and not ours. God, like any rational being, may or may not answer a request from someone. Think about this: if my child asks me for ice cream and I don't want to give it to her, does it mean I don't exist, or that her asking me for things doesn't work? Of course not.

That doesn't stop the atheist from citing "studies" where the efficacy of prayer is measured and found to be useless--according to them. But that is what you'd expect if God, in his infinite wisdom, refused to be quantified by those who deny him and want him, essentially, to perform parlor tricks by responding to prayers in such a regular and man-centered manner so that his "performance" (and prayer's efficacy) can be measured. In other words, atheists, who deny God, want God to do what they want him to do, so they can be convinced. But God doesn't submit to his creation--especially to those who deny him.

But still, does prayer work? Yes it does. I've experienced profound answers many times. But, of course, if I were to offer my experiences and answered prayers, the atheist would say it's too subjective and not quantifiable. Therefore, they would reject it. So we are at an impasse. The atheist requirement of observation, testability, etc., can't affirm or deny prayer's efficacy. So, it isn't possible to win with the atheist when he sets up a criteria that is impossible to satisfy and especially when all answers have to be filtered through his atheistic worldview which requires that prayer will not work.

The atheist, in my opinion, has arrogantly challenged God by viewing non-answered prayer as evidence that he does not exist. The Bible says that God hides himself from the proud (James 4:6). So according to Scripture, atheists cannot and will not see that prayer works, and they will continue to deny God and elevate their own sense of truth and reality.

Atheists say that prayer does not work.

 

[WheelieAddict]

Well, that would explain why things get worse every year, and nothing improves.

I struggle with my own faith, but I still believe everything the Catholic Church teaches is true.

What makes it difficult for me is that the Catholic Church is no longer consistent to it's own teachings.

I have gone to confession many times to confess a sin, only to have the priest tell me it's not really a sin.

I don't know how to describe the moral confusion is created in me when a priest tells me something I know is not true.

So it is not so much people rejecting religion, but religion failing people?

 

[presonorek]

Since repeated studies have shown that prayer works no better than chance, when I want something, I'll just flip a coin; it's just as effective.

You could cast lots. You could also consult the Urim and Thummim. Another option is to consult the ephod.

 

[Avatar4321]

stop quoting the book of Jewish fairytales!

Maybe you should start reading the scriptures and seeking Him who created and redeemed all men

 

[Avatar4321]

Where in our constitution is this "infusion of religious ideals" you speak of. And what religion and what ideals exactly?

Didn't say it was in the Constitution. I said it was the thinking of some of the Founding Fathers. It's no big secret.

Some of them were Deists too, that's also no big secret. So your opinion is that some founding fathers wanted an "infusion of religious ideals", and you have decided that means religion should influence our govt, despite nothing in our laws stating it should. What religion is that exactly? And what is the list of ideals? This is important so please be precise, no vague answers.

Meriweather is correct about religious ideals and values influencing our government. The Declaration of Independence, religious language cast in a way that deists as well as Christians, is one such document. and I am sure that Meri can come up with fifty quotes of the Founders and their compatriots on the importance of religious values in our government. However, the Founders, imo, did not want institutional religion to influence the government.

They absolutely did not want religion to influence govt. So which ideals from which religion are they and what ones apply? This is important if they are to influence our govt. Also maybe some of those ideals were just plain morals.

Yes they did. Read the federalist papers sometime.

 

[Avatar4321]

i dare you to kill me God to prove you're real.

oooooooooookay.....i can confirm i'm still alive!

You do realize you are already going to die right? He has already done it. He has also ensured you will live again

 

[basquebromance]

 

[presonorek]

Thoughts and feelings cannot be proven to exist but they probably do. ~Fancy Guy

 

[basquebromance]

 

[LuckyDuck]

Thoughts and feelings cannot be proven to exist but they probably do. ~Fancy Guy

Thoughts and feelings are "internal emotions" which can be measured. Emotions and thoughts are chemical reactions in the brain which can indeed be measured by functional MRI's.

 

[sealybobo]

They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
2 Timothy 4:4

They won't believe your unbelievable stories. Sealy 1:1

 

[basquebromance]

 

[sealybobo]

28% of Americans take the bible literally. Think about that. That means more than 7 out of 10 call bullshit on the bible.

 

[JakeStarkey]

28% of Americans take the bible literally. Think about that. That means more than 7 out of 10 call bullshit on the bible.

No, they don't. What a moronic conclusion based on the premise. What it means is that they don't take it literally.

Look up the definitions, please.