Peter the Rock

[turzovka]

you said Mary was sinless. Prove it. I just proved to you by one verse she was not.

Honestly, I find you to be either a coward or simply dishonest to your own self.

Reminds me of some president.

 

[ninja007]

Marys sinlessness

Matthew 18: 15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

Questions for you, ninja:

1. 
   
2. Is there an authority on earth granted by Jesus to rule on matters of faith and morals?
   
3. If so, who is that authority?
   
4. Who is “the church” in this passage above?
   
5. Who did Jesus give the authority to “bind on earth” some interpretation or ruling that would be “bound in heaven?”
   
6. What if two believers disagree, who decides? What if one church says purgatory is real and even scriptural and another ecclesiastical community says it’s fake? Who should a believer believe?
   
7. What makes you think that all God intended for his faithful to adhere to is in the Bible? What makes you think the Bible is exact and clear on all contemporary matters of faith and morals?
   
8. Who gave us the Bible?

Finally, how dare you malign and denigrate the Mother of God? If Jesus wishes His mother to be honored above all other creation, and prayed to for assistance, you think He could so deign that to be? Or are you and your circle in some authority to say God cannot do such?

I assume you did not read the article I posted on Peter the Rock. Because if you did, I would expect the same silence I already have received here.

Now having said that, I will give you a free pass. Because I did not have the time to read the voluminous documentation you posted in that earlier thread, nor do I have the time to read the endless prose in this one. But if you make more concise points or pose one or two questions --- that I could respond to. And, yes, Mary was without sin in her earthly life but she did need a savior. She was saved before she was born via her Son. It is revealed through the saints and in detail in revelations given to those saints, as well as detail given to Sister Mary of Agreda in the 1600's. She was a nun who received countless visits from the Blessed Mother and was ordained to write everything down revealed to her. What resulted was a 2,600 page "auto biography" on the Virgin Mary. All the universities of her time and theologians and scholars marveled at what this was and virtually found no error in it that would contradict Scripture or Catholic dogma or doctrines. It is quite miraculous, one might say. It is just one of thousands of times our Lord appeared to Catholic pious souls and saints over the centuries which support Catholic teaching. Either that or Satan is working hard against his own mission.

1. Yes, all Believers.

2. see above.

3. there isn't a church mentioned.

4. Peter

5. the Word (Scripture alone).

6. 2 Peter 1
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and excellence.

7. "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other." (1 Cor. 4:6).

The Holy Spirit gave us the Bible.

 

[ninja007]

you said Mary was sinless. Prove it. I just proved to you by one verse she was not.

Honestly, I find you to be either a coward or simply dishonest to your own self.

Reminds me of some president.

more personal attacks. Mary was not sinless. You said she was. I proved to you we are all sinners. Why do you claim something that is not taught or true from the Bible? Mary also said she needed a Savior. Someone who has not sinned does not need a Savior.

 

[ninja007]

Romans 3:23 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

Yes, so that verse completes your binding and hand cuffing Jesus from permitting any special honor to be given to His mother. After all, praying to her is another sin in your book.

Do you realize how many appartions of the Virgin Mary you have to call of the evil one in order for your mission to go forward? Face it, Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe and Zeitoun are all of supernatural origin. That is beyond any doubt. So who is behind it, God or the devil?

I notice you are your usual too smart or too busy to be bothered with questions directed your way. (post #12 above)

Mark 8:12, "And He sighed deeply in His Spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation."

 

[ninja007]

Question: You strongly hold to the principle of Sola Scriptura. This teaching is relatively new, it cannot be found anywhere in the history of Christendom until the Protestant reformation in the 16th Century. I would deeply appreciate if you could show me why you would believe such an erroneous teaching.

Answer: The principle of Sola Scriptura - the Holy Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith for the church - is neither new nor erroneous. On the contrary, the Church Fathers testify that they too upheld the Scriptures as the sufficient and authoritative font of divine revelation.

The Fathers also held tradition in high esteem, but for them tradition was not a supplementary source of divine doctrines in addition to the teaching of the Scripture. Historian Philip Schaff explains:

“Besides appealing to the Scriptures, the fathers, particularly Irenaeus and Tertullian, refer with equal confidence to the "rule of faith;" that is, the common faith of the church, as orally handed down in the unbroken succession of bishops from Christ and his apostles to their day, and above all as still living in the original apostolic churches, like those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome… the substance of its doctrine this apostolic tradition agrees with the holy scriptures, and though derived, as to its form, from the oral preaching of the apostles, is really, as to its contents, one and the same with their apostolic writings… In the narrower sense, by apostolic tradition or the rule of faith was understood a doctrinal summary of Christianity, or a compend of the faith of the church.” History of the Christian Church, II:12.

The following quotations prove that the Fathers considered the Scriptures as both sufficient and the highest authority in the church.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Athanasius; Against the Heathen, I:3.

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

Athanasius, De Synodis.

Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.

John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.

For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

We are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 7.

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

Basil, Moralia, 72:1.

The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.

Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.

If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 10.

Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 3.

Whatever they may adduce, and wherever they may quote from, let us rather, if we are His sheep, hear the voice of our Shepherd. Therefore let us search for the church in the sacred canonical Scriptures.

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9.

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.

Augustine, De Bono Viduitatis.

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.

Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source… so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatever things they teach, these let us learn.


Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers

 

[turzovka]

Question: You strongly hold to the principle of Sola Scriptura. This teaching is relatively new, it cannot be found anywhere in the history of Christendom until the Protestant reformation in the 16th Century. I would deeply appreciate if you could show me why you would believe such an erroneous teaching.

Answer: The principle of Sola Scriptura - the Holy Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith for the church - is neither new nor erroneous. On the contrary, the Church Fathers testify that they too upheld the Scriptures as the sufficient and authoritative font of divine revelation.

The Fathers also held tradition in high esteem, but for them tradition was not a supplementary source of divine doctrines in addition to the teaching of the Scripture. Historian Philip Schaff explains:

“Besides appealing to the Scriptures, the fathers, particularly Irenaeus and Tertullian, refer with equal confidence to the "rule of faith;" that is, the common faith of the church, as orally handed down in the unbroken succession of bishops from Christ and his apostles to their day, and above all as still living in the original apostolic churches, like those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome… the substance of its doctrine this apostolic tradition agrees with the holy scriptures, and though derived, as to its form, from the oral preaching of the apostles, is really, as to its contents, one and the same with their apostolic writings… In the narrower sense, by apostolic tradition or the rule of faith was understood a doctrinal summary of Christianity, or a compend of the faith of the church.” History of the Christian Church, II:12.

The following quotations prove that the Fathers considered the Scriptures as both sufficient and the highest authority in the church.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Athanasius; Against the Heathen, I:3.

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

Athanasius, De Synodis.

Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.

John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.

For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

We are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 7.

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

Basil, Moralia, 72:1.

The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.

Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.

If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 10.

Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 3.

Whatever they may adduce, and wherever they may quote from, let us rather, if we are His sheep, hear the voice of our Shepherd. Therefore let us search for the church in the sacred canonical Scriptures.

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9.

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.

Augustine, De Bono Viduitatis.

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.

Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source… so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatever things they teach, these let us learn.


Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers

John 16:12
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

And that "more than you can now bear" was revealed to The Church Christ established and gave “the keys of the kingdom.” That is where the Holy Spirit resides. And a thousand holy saints that have come after it witnessing to the truth validate the authority given to the Church. But you cannot bear it. You want to rush to Luther and Calvin and make your journey so much easier, i.e. sola Scriptura, where you pick and choose only those verses that give you comfort.

Or is it "sola fide," even easier? Just believe and heaven awaits you. Right. Your sins may be forgiven, but they must still be atoned for. Or don’t you believe in the Bible? (purgatory saturates the gospels) Such boastfulness (sola fide)mocks the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Did God not say he will spew the lukewarm out of his mouth? You think the lukewarm were not believers?

 

[ninja007]

Question: You strongly hold to the principle of Sola Scriptura. This teaching is relatively new, it cannot be found anywhere in the history of Christendom until the Protestant reformation in the 16th Century. I would deeply appreciate if you could show me why you would believe such an erroneous teaching.

Answer: The principle of Sola Scriptura - the Holy Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith for the church - is neither new nor erroneous. On the contrary, the Church Fathers testify that they too upheld the Scriptures as the sufficient and authoritative font of divine revelation.

The Fathers also held tradition in high esteem, but for them tradition was not a supplementary source of divine doctrines in addition to the teaching of the Scripture. Historian Philip Schaff explains:

“Besides appealing to the Scriptures, the fathers, particularly Irenaeus and Tertullian, refer with equal confidence to the "rule of faith;" that is, the common faith of the church, as orally handed down in the unbroken succession of bishops from Christ and his apostles to their day, and above all as still living in the original apostolic churches, like those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome… the substance of its doctrine this apostolic tradition agrees with the holy scriptures, and though derived, as to its form, from the oral preaching of the apostles, is really, as to its contents, one and the same with their apostolic writings… In the narrower sense, by apostolic tradition or the rule of faith was understood a doctrinal summary of Christianity, or a compend of the faith of the church.” History of the Christian Church, II:12.

The following quotations prove that the Fathers considered the Scriptures as both sufficient and the highest authority in the church.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Athanasius; Against the Heathen, I:3.

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

Athanasius, De Synodis.

Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.

John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.

For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

We are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 7.

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

Basil, Moralia, 72:1.

The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.

Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.

If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 10.

Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 3.

Whatever they may adduce, and wherever they may quote from, let us rather, if we are His sheep, hear the voice of our Shepherd. Therefore let us search for the church in the sacred canonical Scriptures.

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9.

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.

Augustine, De Bono Viduitatis.

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.

Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source… so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatever things they teach, these let us learn.


Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers

John 16:12
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

And that "more than you can now bear" was revealed to The Church Christ established and gave “the keys of the kingdom.” That is where the Holy Spirit resides. And a thousand holy saints that have come after it witnessing to the truth validate the authority given to the Church. But you cannot bear it. You want to rush to Luther and Calvin and make your journey so much easier, i.e. sola Scriptura, where you pick and choose only those verses that give you comfort.

Or is it "sola fide," even easier? Just believe and heaven awaits you. Right. Your sins may be forgiven, but they must still be atoned for. Or don’t you believe in the Bible? (purgatory saturates the gospels) Such boastfulness (sola fide)mocks the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Did God not say he will spew the lukewarm out of his mouth? You think the lukewarm were not believers?

People mocking God are the ones that think He didn't take care of their sins- all of them.

 

[turzovka]

Question: You strongly hold to the principle of Sola Scriptura. This teaching is relatively new, it cannot be found anywhere in the history of Christendom until the Protestant reformation in the 16th Century. I would deeply appreciate if you could show me why you would believe such an erroneous teaching.

Answer: The principle of Sola Scriptura - the Holy Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith for the church - is neither new nor erroneous. On the contrary, the Church Fathers testify that they too upheld the Scriptures as the sufficient and authoritative font of divine revelation.

The Fathers also held tradition in high esteem, but for them tradition was not a supplementary source of divine doctrines in addition to the teaching of the Scripture. Historian Philip Schaff explains:

“Besides appealing to the Scriptures, the fathers, particularly Irenaeus and Tertullian, refer with equal confidence to the "rule of faith;" that is, the common faith of the church, as orally handed down in the unbroken succession of bishops from Christ and his apostles to their day, and above all as still living in the original apostolic churches, like those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome… the substance of its doctrine this apostolic tradition agrees with the holy scriptures, and though derived, as to its form, from the oral preaching of the apostles, is really, as to its contents, one and the same with their apostolic writings… In the narrower sense, by apostolic tradition or the rule of faith was understood a doctrinal summary of Christianity, or a compend of the faith of the church.” History of the Christian Church, II:12.

The following quotations prove that the Fathers considered the Scriptures as both sufficient and the highest authority in the church.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Athanasius; Against the Heathen, I:3.

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

Athanasius, De Synodis.

Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.

John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.

For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

We are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 7.

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

Basil, Moralia, 72:1.

The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.

Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.

If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 10.

Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 3.

Whatever they may adduce, and wherever they may quote from, let us rather, if we are His sheep, hear the voice of our Shepherd. Therefore let us search for the church in the sacred canonical Scriptures.

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9.

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.

Augustine, De Bono Viduitatis.

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.

Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source… so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatever things they teach, these let us learn.


Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers

John 16:12
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

And that "more than you can now bear" was revealed to The Church Christ established and gave “the keys of the kingdom.” That is where the Holy Spirit resides. And a thousand holy saints that have come after it witnessing to the truth validate the authority given to the Church. But you cannot bear it. You want to rush to Luther and Calvin and make your journey so much easier, i.e. sola Scriptura, where you pick and choose only those verses that give you comfort.

Or is it "sola fide," even easier? Just believe and heaven awaits you. Right. Your sins may be forgiven, but they must still be atoned for. Or don’t you believe in the Bible? (purgatory saturates the gospels) Such boastfulness (sola fide)mocks the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Did God not say he will spew the lukewarm out of his mouth? You think the lukewarm were not believers?

People mocking God are the ones that think He didn't take care of their sins- all of them.

Matthew 18:32-35
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, “You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?” And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.

[“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you.” Do what?... hand you over to the torturers until you should repay all that was owed him. Is this not clear? This is the purification of a soul. You will be tortured, but you will be released after you have made amends. God is both merciful and just.]


1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]


Matthew 12:32 Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]


Luke 7:47 I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.

[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave “little” on earth, God is saying he will forgive “little” when judging you. He’s not saying he will forgive “nothing”, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning you either.]

 

[ninja007]

Question: You strongly hold to the principle of Sola Scriptura. This teaching is relatively new, it cannot be found anywhere in the history of Christendom until the Protestant reformation in the 16th Century. I would deeply appreciate if you could show me why you would believe such an erroneous teaching.

Answer: The principle of Sola Scriptura - the Holy Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith for the church - is neither new nor erroneous. On the contrary, the Church Fathers testify that they too upheld the Scriptures as the sufficient and authoritative font of divine revelation.

The Fathers also held tradition in high esteem, but for them tradition was not a supplementary source of divine doctrines in addition to the teaching of the Scripture. Historian Philip Schaff explains:

“Besides appealing to the Scriptures, the fathers, particularly Irenaeus and Tertullian, refer with equal confidence to the "rule of faith;" that is, the common faith of the church, as orally handed down in the unbroken succession of bishops from Christ and his apostles to their day, and above all as still living in the original apostolic churches, like those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome… the substance of its doctrine this apostolic tradition agrees with the holy scriptures, and though derived, as to its form, from the oral preaching of the apostles, is really, as to its contents, one and the same with their apostolic writings… In the narrower sense, by apostolic tradition or the rule of faith was understood a doctrinal summary of Christianity, or a compend of the faith of the church.” History of the Christian Church, II:12.

The following quotations prove that the Fathers considered the Scriptures as both sufficient and the highest authority in the church.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Athanasius; Against the Heathen, I:3.

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

Athanasius, De Synodis.

Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.

John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.

For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

We are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 7.

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

Basil, Moralia, 72:1.

The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.

Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.

If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 10.

Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 3.

Whatever they may adduce, and wherever they may quote from, let us rather, if we are His sheep, hear the voice of our Shepherd. Therefore let us search for the church in the sacred canonical Scriptures.

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9.

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.

Augustine, De Bono Viduitatis.

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.

Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source… so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatever things they teach, these let us learn.


Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers

John 16:12
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

And that "more than you can now bear" was revealed to The Church Christ established and gave “the keys of the kingdom.” That is where the Holy Spirit resides. And a thousand holy saints that have come after it witnessing to the truth validate the authority given to the Church. But you cannot bear it. You want to rush to Luther and Calvin and make your journey so much easier, i.e. sola Scriptura, where you pick and choose only those verses that give you comfort.

Or is it "sola fide," even easier? Just believe and heaven awaits you. Right. Your sins may be forgiven, but they must still be atoned for. Or don’t you believe in the Bible? (purgatory saturates the gospels) Such boastfulness (sola fide)mocks the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Did God not say he will spew the lukewarm out of his mouth? You think the lukewarm were not believers?

People mocking God are the ones that think He didn't take care of their sins- all of them.

Matthew 18:32-35
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, “You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?” And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.

[“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you.” Do what?... hand you over to the torturers until you should repay all that was owed him. Is this not clear? This is the purification of a soul. You will be tortured, but you will be released after you have made amends. God is both merciful and just.]


1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]


Matthew 12:32 Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]


Luke 7:47 I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.

[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave “little” on earth, God is saying he will forgive “little” when judging you. He’s not saying he will forgive “nothing”, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning you either.]

google Bema Seat/ Judgment Seat of Christ, about the bolded.

 

[ninja007]

there is no purgatory. That is a lie of Satan. You do not get another chance. After death, then the judgment as the Bible says. You are either saved or not. The word is very clear about that.

 

[ninja007]

The Bible is even clearer Ps 49:7-9, "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him-- For the redemption of their souls is costly, and it shall cease forever--That he should continue to live eternally, and not see the Pit." There is no payment for sin except the blood of Gods Son on the cross this is what God the Father accepts, nothing less, nothing else.

Heaven is not a reward for doing good deeds but a gift to us because of what Christ did. To see it any other way is to miss the very reason Christ died. He purchased for us something we could never do on our own even if we live a million years and do good works it still would not be enough.

Rom. 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Paul said of all believers in 2 Cor.5:8, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He makes it even clearer to be at home with the body is to be absent from the Lord."

Phil.1:21,23 says "It is far better… to die is gain (not pain) his desire to be with Christ is far better." (Christ is in heaven).The thief on the cross went to paradise not to purgatory, where Jesus was, he was also. He didn’t have time to burn off a lot of sin of which he probably had plenty. He was accepted by grace just as we still are today.

There is only one way to be cleansed by Christ blood this what he came for he suffered in our place. The bible teaches that in Heb.1:3 after he purged our sins he sat down at the right hand of God Heb.10:11-12 A high priest never sat down unless his task was completed. Can our own prayers and money accomplish what he supposedly failed in. Is Christ’s death insufficient or sufficient? Heb.9:22, "without the shedding of blood their is no forgiveness of sins." There is no more sacrifice for sin . It was completed, almost 2,000 years ago. 1 Jn.1:7, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." The O.T. sacrifices were given over and over because they could never take away our sin. This is what the mass is claimed to do. One must continually repeat it because of its temporary affect. Christ sacrifice is permanent only he as a person can bring us to God not through a wafer or any other means. Col. 1:20 having made peace through the blood of the cross."vs.22 In the body of (Jesus) his flesh through death to present yourselves holy and blameless and irreproachable in is sight." Because of what he did we are accepted. The father accepted the payment … now it’s up to you to do the same.

Purgatory a Spiritual Bermuda Triangle

 

[ninja007]

Bema Seat of Christ Judgment Seat of Christ

 

[turzovka]

The Bible is even clearer Ps 49:7-9, "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him-- For the redemption of their souls is costly, and it shall cease forever--That he should continue to live eternally, and not see the Pit." There is no payment for sin except the blood of Gods Son on the cross this is what God the Father accepts, nothing less, nothing else.

Heaven is not a reward for doing good deeds but a gift to us because of what Christ did. To see it any other way is to miss the very reason Christ died. He purchased for us something we could never do on our own even if we live a million years and do good works it still would not be enough.

Rom. 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Paul said of all believers in 2 Cor.5:8, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He makes it even clearer to be at home with the body is to be absent from the Lord."

Phil.1:21,23 says "It is far better… to die is gain (not pain) his desire to be with Christ is far better." (Christ is in heaven).The thief on the cross went to paradise not to purgatory, where Jesus was, he was also. He didn’t have time to burn off a lot of sin of which he probably had plenty. He was accepted by grace just as we still are today.

There is only one way to be cleansed by Christ blood this what he came for he suffered in our place. The bible teaches that in Heb.1:3 after he purged our sins he sat down at the right hand of God Heb.10:11-12 A high priest never sat down unless his task was completed. Can our own prayers and money accomplish what he supposedly failed in. Is Christ’s death insufficient or sufficient? Heb.9:22, "without the shedding of blood their is no forgiveness of sins." There is no more sacrifice for sin . It was completed, almost 2,000 years ago. 1 Jn.1:7, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." The O.T. sacrifices were given over and over because they could never take away our sin. This is what the mass is claimed to do. One must continually repeat it because of its temporary affect. Christ sacrifice is permanent only he as a person can bring us to God not through a wafer or any other means. Col. 1:20 having made peace through the blood of the cross."vs.22 In the body of (Jesus) his flesh through death to present yourselves holy and blameless and irreproachable in is sight." Because of what he did we are accepted. The father accepted the payment … now it’s up to you to do the same.

Purgatory a Spiritual Bermuda Triangle

Just go interpret the meaning of those Scripture passages I just posted. Or don't they matter?

 

[ninja007]

Question: You strongly hold to the principle of Sola Scriptura. This teaching is relatively new, it cannot be found anywhere in the history of Christendom until the Protestant reformation in the 16th Century. I would deeply appreciate if you could show me why you would believe such an erroneous teaching.

Answer: The principle of Sola Scriptura - the Holy Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith for the church - is neither new nor erroneous. On the contrary, the Church Fathers testify that they too upheld the Scriptures as the sufficient and authoritative font of divine revelation.

The Fathers also held tradition in high esteem, but for them tradition was not a supplementary source of divine doctrines in addition to the teaching of the Scripture. Historian Philip Schaff explains:

“Besides appealing to the Scriptures, the fathers, particularly Irenaeus and Tertullian, refer with equal confidence to the "rule of faith;" that is, the common faith of the church, as orally handed down in the unbroken succession of bishops from Christ and his apostles to their day, and above all as still living in the original apostolic churches, like those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and Rome… the substance of its doctrine this apostolic tradition agrees with the holy scriptures, and though derived, as to its form, from the oral preaching of the apostles, is really, as to its contents, one and the same with their apostolic writings… In the narrower sense, by apostolic tradition or the rule of faith was understood a doctrinal summary of Christianity, or a compend of the faith of the church.” History of the Christian Church, II:12.

The following quotations prove that the Fathers considered the Scriptures as both sufficient and the highest authority in the church.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III.

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

Athanasius; Against the Heathen, I:3.

The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

Athanasius, De Synodis.

Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.

John Chrysostom, Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC.

Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Holy Trinity.

For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection.

We are not entitled to such licence, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC

What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit, 7.

We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

Basil, Moralia, 72:1.

The hearers taught in the Scriptures ought to test what is said by teachers and accept that which agrees with the Scriptures but reject that which is foreign.

Augustine, Contra litteras Petiliani, Bk 3, ch. 6.

If anyone preaches either concerning Christ or concerning His church or concerning any other matter which pertains to our faith and life; I will not say, if we, but what Paul adds, if an angel from heaven should preach to you anything besides what you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and of the Gospels, let him be anathema.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, IV:17.

For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 10.

Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.

Augustine, De Unitate Ecclesiae, 3.

Whatever they may adduce, and wherever they may quote from, let us rather, if we are His sheep, hear the voice of our Shepherd. Therefore let us search for the church in the sacred canonical Scriptures.

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, II, 9.

For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.

Augustine, De Bono Viduitatis.

What more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostles? For Holy Scripture fixes the rule for our doctrine, lest we dare be wiser than we ought. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to you the words of the Teacher.

Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.

There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source… so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatever things they teach, these let us learn.


Sola Scriptura and the Church Fathers

John 16:12
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.

And that "more than you can now bear" was revealed to The Church Christ established and gave “the keys of the kingdom.” That is where the Holy Spirit resides. And a thousand holy saints that have come after it witnessing to the truth validate the authority given to the Church. But you cannot bear it. You want to rush to Luther and Calvin and make your journey so much easier, i.e. sola Scriptura, where you pick and choose only those verses that give you comfort.

Or is it "sola fide," even easier? Just believe and heaven awaits you. Right. Your sins may be forgiven, but they must still be atoned for. Or don’t you believe in the Bible? (purgatory saturates the gospels) Such boastfulness (sola fide)mocks the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Did God not say he will spew the lukewarm out of his mouth? You think the lukewarm were not believers?

People mocking God are the ones that think He didn't take care of their sins- all of them.

Matthew 18:32-35
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, “You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?” And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.

[“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you.” Do what?... hand you over to the torturers until you should repay all that was owed him. Is this not clear? This is the purification of a soul. You will be tortured, but you will be released after you have made amends. God is both merciful and just.]


1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]


Matthew 12:32 Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]


Luke 7:47 I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.

[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave “little” on earth, God is saying he will forgive “little” when judging you. He’s not saying he will forgive “nothing”, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning you either.]

by Sunday night, Lord willing.. I'm off to bed and it is 1-30 am.