Pete Rose Formally Petitions MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred for Reinstatement

[Synthaholic]

And that is the problem with the one size fits all rules on gambling

Shoeless Joe did not gamble. He accepted what amounted to a years pay to throw the World Series. He altered his performance in those games to lose them

There was no rule against gambling. It was instituted because of the 1919 White Sox. So comparisons to Rose make no sense.

Pete Rose spent pocket money placing bets on games. He earned the money at weekend card signings where he was paid in cash. He never threw a game to affect his winnings, Pete gambled for fun

Yet both offenses are treated the same by baseball.

Pete Rose was/is an addicted gambler and has been for his entire career. He didn't place bets "for fun".

And you have no idea whether he threw games to affect his winnings.

 

[Pogo]

Can't agree on this one Jake. Pete Rose was one of the best players to ever put on a uniform and his attitude alone served as immeasurable inspiration to arguably millions.

The whole denial of the HoF is complete political posturing and has nothing to do with his accomplishments, which are sitting right there in the record books whether anybody likes who set them or not. If they want to pretend the HoF is some kind of moral award, they'll need to kick out a bunch of others already in there - like Ty Cobb.

But that's not what HoF status is, and it's completely disingenuous to pretend it is.

False. Pete Rose should never be inducted into the HoF. He knowingly, repeatedly committed baseball's Cardinal Sin.

At the entrance of every MLB clubhouse is a big sign that warns against gambling, and the consequences. He chose to ignore it and flaunt it. He thought he was bigger than the sport.

Comparisons to Ty Cobb are irrelevant. Ty Cobb was an awful person, and a proud bigot. But he didn't gamble on baseball. Besides that, he played the majority of his career before the Black Sox Scandal that made gambling the one thing that would get you banned from baseball.

Rose has continued to stick his thumb in baseball's eye over the years. Every Cooperstown induction, he sets up a little stand down the street to sell signed baseballs. He has been asked every year to stop yet refuses. He truly is scum.

Not being in the HoF does nothing to diminish his remarkable achievements on the field. He has not been struck from any record books, or had any hits taken away. He was a great ballplayer, and everyone acknowledges that. But the HoF is for players who played the game with integrity, as well as talent. Peter Edward Rose does not qualify.

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

 

[rightwinger]

The biggest problem I have with MLB not reinstating rose is that it's all but documented fact that they looked the other way when players were juicing, because it helped the sport itself recover from the negative consequences of the strike and revived its popularity.. Ultimately making it more MONEY.

But rose is forever branded with a scarlet A.

It's kind of ridiculous.

Owners and the league made record profits off of bogus home runs. And they condemn Rose for "cheating"

Steroids were not illegal or against baseball's rules at the time of Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds. Gambling was the ONE rule that everyone knew you could not violate.

They are still illegal and we still have players like Ryan Braun winning MVPs using them and being welcomed back with huge contracts

10 years later a look at every MLB player suspended for PEDs MLB Sporting News

Pete Rose broke the rules and was punished. It is time to reevaluate whether his crime was heinous enough to warrant a lifetime ban

They were not illegal or against MLB rules when Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds were hitting all those home runs. Ryan Braun was caught and punished. Should he ever put up career HoF numbers, the sportswriters will have to determine if his steroid use makes him ineligible for induction. But it has nothing to do with Rose, who repeatedly gambled even after being warned by teammates and those close to him. If he had come clean years ago - he had this gambling problem all the way back to his early days - and sought help, perhaps things would have been different, but he has lied about it all of his life.

Those who used steroids did cheat, did lie about it and were allowed back in the game. They are given three strikes before they are banned. Their cheating specifically changed the outcomes of games and stole money based on bogus stats

Pete Rose was banned forever with no chance to fix his gambling problem. His gambling did not alter the outcome of games nor did he gain financially from the game. He only hurt himself

It is a question of proportionality and who hurt the game more

As a fan, I was more disgusted with the fact that baseball lied to us about the inflated statistics and our new heroes

 

[Synthaholic]

Pete Rose was banned because his gambling "might" lead to cheating.

False. Pete Rose was banned because he broke the #1 rule in baseball. Repeatedly.

The reason we have Rule #1 is because it "may" lead to cheating

Those doing PEDs DID CHEAT.....they won games they should have lost, they won awards they shouldn't have won, broke records they shouldn't have broken and received contracts they didn't earn

That level of cheating vastly exceeds what Pete Rose was accused of

And all of them have been denied entry into the Hall. As it should be.

Agreed -- and the cheating they were doing arguably affected the outcome of at least some of the games they played in.
The same cannot be said of Pete Rose.

Hell I remember Derek Cheater acknowledging being hit by a pitch to get on base. Think he'll be kept out of the Hall?

If he leaned over the plate to try to get hit, he would have been called out.

It is not against the rules to stay in the batter's box with a pitch coming at you.

I know my baseball.

 

[Pogo]

Pete Rose was banned because his gambling "might" lead to cheating.

False. Pete Rose was banned because he broke the #1 rule in baseball. Repeatedly.

The reason we have Rule #1 is because it "may" lead to cheating

Those doing PEDs DID CHEAT.....they won games they should have lost, they won awards they shouldn't have won, broke records they shouldn't have broken and received contracts they didn't earn

That level of cheating vastly exceeds what Pete Rose was accused of

And all of them have been denied entry into the Hall. As it should be.

Agreed -- and the cheating they were doing arguably affected the outcome of at least some of the games they played in.
The same cannot be said of Pete Rose.

Hell I remember Derek Cheater acknowledging being hit by a pitch to get on base. Think he'll be kept out of the Hall?

If he leaned over the plate to try to get hit, he would have been called out.

It is not against the rules to stay in the batter's box with a pitch coming at you.

I know my baseball.

So do I -- that's not what he did. He fully acknowledged, right after the game, that he was not hit. Don't you remember where the phrase "Derek Cheater" comes from?
I'll see if I can find it.

Here ya go -- wasn't hard:

Caption: Derek Jeter made his best case for an Academy Award on Wednesday night in Tampa.
​

>> In just about any profession -- except on Wall Street, where such practices seem to be rewarded with hefty bonuses -- that kind of thing will get you fired and probably blackballed.

In professional sports, it gets you the reputation of being "a gamer," a guy who will do anything to get an edge over his opponent. It is precisely that sort of thinking that gave rise to the steroid mentality.

Jeter did nothing so egregious, of course, and no one in his or her right mind could have expected him to tell the umpire that the ball did not, in fact, hit him, which he readily admitted after the game.

But there was something a little grubby about the whole act, something a little desperate, and something that reminded me of how much I scorn outfielders who jump up screaming they caught that sinking liner that the replay clearly shows they trapped, or the wide receiver who insists he caught the pass that the eye in the sky proves to have skipped.

It reveals a fundamental lack of integrity we have come, sadly, to expect of the average person, but not from Derek Jeter, who over the past 15 years has shown himself to be anything but average. << -- Wallace Matthews, ESPN
​

By contrast this guy tried the same thing, didn't get away with it:

​

Now that's what I call cheating. In both cases.

 

[rightwinger]

And that is the problem with the one size fits all rules on gambling

Shoeless Joe did not gamble. He accepted what amounted to a years pay to throw the World Series. He altered his performance in those games to lose them

There was no rule against gambling. It was instituted because of the 1919 White Sox. So comparisons to Rose make no sense.

Pete Rose spent pocket money placing bets on games. He earned the money at weekend card signings where he was paid in cash. He never threw a game to affect his winnings, Pete gambled for fun

Yet both offenses are treated the same by baseball.

Pete Rose was/is an addicted gambler and has been for his entire career. He didn't place bets "for fun".

And you have no idea whether he threw games to affect his winnings.

Shoeless Joe did not gamble. He had no money on the game

He accepted a years salary to blow the World Series...that is not gambling and was never allowed within the rules

The offenses of Shoeless Joe were far, far worse than Pete Rose

So were the offenses of today's steroid users

 

[Synthaholic]

Can't agree on this one Jake. Pete Rose was one of the best players to ever put on a uniform and his attitude alone served as immeasurable inspiration to arguably millions.

The whole denial of the HoF is complete political posturing and has nothing to do with his accomplishments, which are sitting right there in the record books whether anybody likes who set them or not. If they want to pretend the HoF is some kind of moral award, they'll need to kick out a bunch of others already in there - like Ty Cobb.

But that's not what HoF status is, and it's completely disingenuous to pretend it is.

False. Pete Rose should never be inducted into the HoF. He knowingly, repeatedly committed baseball's Cardinal Sin.

At the entrance of every MLB clubhouse is a big sign that warns against gambling, and the consequences. He chose to ignore it and flaunt it. He thought he was bigger than the sport.

Comparisons to Ty Cobb are irrelevant. Ty Cobb was an awful person, and a proud bigot. But he didn't gamble on baseball. Besides that, he played the majority of his career before the Black Sox Scandal that made gambling the one thing that would get you banned from baseball.

Rose has continued to stick his thumb in baseball's eye over the years. Every Cooperstown induction, he sets up a little stand down the street to sell signed baseballs. He has been asked every year to stop yet refuses. He truly is scum.

Not being in the HoF does nothing to diminish his remarkable achievements on the field. He has not been struck from any record books, or had any hits taken away. He was a great ballplayer, and everyone acknowledges that. But the HoF is for players who played the game with integrity, as well as talent. Peter Edward Rose does not qualify.

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

 

[rightwinger]

False. Pete Rose should never be inducted into the HoF. He knowingly, repeatedly committed baseball's Cardinal Sin.

At the entrance of every MLB clubhouse is a big sign that warns against gambling, and the consequences. He chose to ignore it and flaunt it. He thought he was bigger than the sport.

Comparisons to Ty Cobb are irrelevant. Ty Cobb was an awful person, and a proud bigot. But he didn't gamble on baseball. Besides that, he played the majority of his career before the Black Sox Scandal that made gambling the one thing that would get you banned from baseball.

Rose has continued to stick his thumb in baseball's eye over the years. Every Cooperstown induction, he sets up a little stand down the street to sell signed baseballs. He has been asked every year to stop yet refuses. He truly is scum.

Not being in the HoF does nothing to diminish his remarkable achievements on the field. He has not been struck from any record books, or had any hits taken away. He was a great ballplayer, and everyone acknowledges that. But the HoF is for players who played the game with integrity, as well as talent. Peter Edward Rose does not qualify.

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

Cobb was hated when he played the game and hated in later life. When he died, only one teammate showed up for his funeral
I seem to remember he did actually cheat when he played.

 

[Synthaholic]

The biggest problem I have with MLB not reinstating rose is that it's all but documented fact that they looked the other way when players were juicing, because it helped the sport itself recover from the negative consequences of the strike and revived its popularity.. Ultimately making it more MONEY.

But rose is forever branded with a scarlet A.

It's kind of ridiculous.

Owners and the league made record profits off of bogus home runs. And they condemn Rose for "cheating"

Steroids were not illegal or against baseball's rules at the time of Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds. Gambling was the ONE rule that everyone knew you could not violate.

They are still illegal and we still have players like Ryan Braun winning MVPs using them and being welcomed back with huge contracts

10 years later a look at every MLB player suspended for PEDs MLB Sporting News

Pete Rose broke the rules and was punished. It is time to reevaluate whether his crime was heinous enough to warrant a lifetime ban

They were not illegal or against MLB rules when Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds were hitting all those home runs. Ryan Braun was caught and punished. Should he ever put up career HoF numbers, the sportswriters will have to determine if his steroid use makes him ineligible for induction. But it has nothing to do with Rose, who repeatedly gambled even after being warned by teammates and those close to him. If he had come clean years ago - he had this gambling problem all the way back to his early days - and sought help, perhaps things would have been different, but he has lied about it all of his life.

Those who used steroids did cheat, did lie about it and were allowed back in the game. They are given three strikes before they are banned. Their cheating specifically changed the outcomes of games and stole money based on bogus stats

And they will never be inducted into the HoF. Look at Raphael Palmeiro: if anyone deserves induction, it's him. He collected the bulk of his 3,000+ hits before using steroids, but his lying before Congress sealed his fate with the sportswriters.

Pete Rose was banned forever with no chance to fix his gambling problem. His gambling did not alter the outcome of games nor did he gain financially from the game. He only hurt himself

You say that as if it were fact, when it is only speculation.

 

[rightwinger]

Owners and the league made record profits off of bogus home runs. And they condemn Rose for "cheating"

Steroids were not illegal or against baseball's rules at the time of Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds. Gambling was the ONE rule that everyone knew you could not violate.

They are still illegal and we still have players like Ryan Braun winning MVPs using them and being welcomed back with huge contracts

10 years later a look at every MLB player suspended for PEDs MLB Sporting News

Pete Rose broke the rules and was punished. It is time to reevaluate whether his crime was heinous enough to warrant a lifetime ban

They were not illegal or against MLB rules when Sosa/Mcgwire/Bonds were hitting all those home runs. Ryan Braun was caught and punished. Should he ever put up career HoF numbers, the sportswriters will have to determine if his steroid use makes him ineligible for induction. But it has nothing to do with Rose, who repeatedly gambled even after being warned by teammates and those close to him. If he had come clean years ago - he had this gambling problem all the way back to his early days - and sought help, perhaps things would have been different, but he has lied about it all of his life.

Those who used steroids did cheat, did lie about it and were allowed back in the game. They are given three strikes before they are banned. Their cheating specifically changed the outcomes of games and stole money based on bogus stats

And they will never be inducted into the HoF. Look at Raphael Palmeiro: if anyone deserves induction, it's him. He collected the bulk of his 3,000+ hits before using steroids, but his lying before Congress sealed his fate with the sportswriters.

Pete Rose was banned forever with no chance to fix his gambling problem. His gambling did not alter the outcome of games nor did he gain financially from the game. He only hurt himself

You say that as if it were fact, when it is only speculation.

Pete Rose was banned from baseball, not just the HOF
Those who used steroids were allowed back in the game after a short suspension

35 years is not the same as a short suspension even though his offense was nowhere near as detrimental to the game

 

[Synthaholic]

False. Pete Rose was banned because he broke the #1 rule in baseball. Repeatedly.

The reason we have Rule #1 is because it "may" lead to cheating

Those doing PEDs DID CHEAT.....they won games they should have lost, they won awards they shouldn't have won, broke records they shouldn't have broken and received contracts they didn't earn

That level of cheating vastly exceeds what Pete Rose was accused of

And all of them have been denied entry into the Hall. As it should be.

Agreed -- and the cheating they were doing arguably affected the outcome of at least some of the games they played in.
The same cannot be said of Pete Rose.

Hell I remember Derek Cheater acknowledging being hit by a pitch to get on base. Think he'll be kept out of the Hall?

If he leaned over the plate to try to get hit, he would have been called out.

It is not against the rules to stay in the batter's box with a pitch coming at you.

I know my baseball.

So do I -- that's not what he did. He fully acknowledged, right after the game, that he was not hit. Don't you remember where the phrase "Derek Cheater" comes from?
I'll see if I can find it.

Here ya go -- wasn't hard:

Caption: Derek Jeter made his best case for an Academy Award on Wednesday night in Tampa.
​

>> In just about any profession -- except on Wall Street, where such practices seem to be rewarded with hefty bonuses -- that kind of thing will get you fired and probably blackballed.

In professional sports, it gets you the reputation of being "a gamer," a guy who will do anything to get an edge over his opponent. It is precisely that sort of thinking that gave rise to the steroid mentality.

Jeter did nothing so egregious, of course, and no one in his or her right mind could have expected him to tell the umpire that the ball did not, in fact, hit him, which he readily admitted after the game.

But there was something a little grubby about the whole act, something a little desperate, and something that reminded me of how much I scorn outfielders who jump up screaming they caught that sinking liner that the replay clearly shows they trapped, or the wide receiver who insists he caught the pass that the eye in the sky proves to have skipped.

It reveals a fundamental lack of integrity we have come, sadly, to expect of the average person, but not from Derek Jeter, who over the past 15 years has shown himself to be anything but average. << -- Wallace Matthews, ESPN​

That's on the umpire.

I remember Reggie Jackson sticking his leg out to get hit with a ball thrown by the shortstop on a double play. The umpires didn't call it. Oh, well.

 

[Synthaholic]

The offenses of Shoeless Joe were far, far worse than Pete Rose

And - once again - he will never be allowed into the HoF.

It's really quite simple.

 

[Pogo]

False. Pete Rose should never be inducted into the HoF. He knowingly, repeatedly committed baseball's Cardinal Sin.

At the entrance of every MLB clubhouse is a big sign that warns against gambling, and the consequences. He chose to ignore it and flaunt it. He thought he was bigger than the sport.

Comparisons to Ty Cobb are irrelevant. Ty Cobb was an awful person, and a proud bigot. But he didn't gamble on baseball. Besides that, he played the majority of his career before the Black Sox Scandal that made gambling the one thing that would get you banned from baseball.

Rose has continued to stick his thumb in baseball's eye over the years. Every Cooperstown induction, he sets up a little stand down the street to sell signed baseballs. He has been asked every year to stop yet refuses. He truly is scum.

Not being in the HoF does nothing to diminish his remarkable achievements on the field. He has not been struck from any record books, or had any hits taken away. He was a great ballplayer, and everyone acknowledges that. But the HoF is for players who played the game with integrity, as well as talent. Peter Edward Rose does not qualify.

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

And neither did Pete Rose, to whom the same description as a player applies. They had much in common.

The reason Cobb comes up in this debate is the question of whether "personal character" is a qualification for the Hall of Fame. If it IS, then Ty Cobb's entry is highly questionable -- yet he was inducted easily as soon as eligible, even before his change of heart about racial attitudes and so forth. It's a question of a double standard.

If "personal character" is NOT to be a hindrance, then there's no argument for excluding Pete Rose from the Hall along with Cobb, the player whose record he broke.

It's an either/or. IMHO since the Hall is purportedly about performance on the field and not about whether you're a liar, gambler, racist or beat people up, then both Cobb and Rose belong there. Can't have one and not the other.

 

[Synthaholic]

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

Cobb was hated when he played the game and hated in later life. When he died, only one teammate showed up for his funeral
I seem to remember he did actually cheat when he played.

Never. But nobody played the game harder than he did. He would sharpen his cleats to draw blood sliding into a base, and is famous for saying "baseball is no pink tea". He treated it as war.

 

[Papageorgio]

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

Cobb was hated when he played the game and hated in later life. When he died, only one teammate showed up for his funeral
I seem to remember he did actually cheat when he played.

Accusations he bet on the game, none were confirmed.

People claimed he sharpened his spikes, he claims he never did.

The conduct rules did not exist at that period of time. He was a bad guy, a racist an asshole and so on. People and the game have evolved since then.

 

[rightwinger]

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

Cobb was hated when he played the game and hated in later life. When he died, only one teammate showed up for his funeral
I seem to remember he did actually cheat when he played.

Never. But nobody played the game harder than he did. He would sharpen his cleats to draw blood sliding into a base, and is famous for saying "baseball is no pink tea". He treated it as war.

Cobb was also involved in game fixing with Tris Speaker in September 1919, a month before the Blacksox

Ty Cobb - Rule 5 An Analysis of the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame Character Clause

 

[Synthaholic]

Pete Rose has an ego as big as Texas, no argument there. That's part of what gave him his drive. Maybe most of it.

But that's irrelevant to the Hall and acknowledgement of his records. Or as Leo Durocher put it, "'nice guys' finish last". Or as Rose expressed the same thing about his infamous collision with Ray Fosse: "I play to win. Period".

Hey, put him in the Hall and have those flaws and transgressions listed prominently on a plaque, in the same font as his records. Fine. But let's not pretend he didn't do all that on the basis that he also did something else.

Lets also not pretend there are others such as Cobb who dont belong in there as well if Rose doesnt.

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

And neither did Pete Rose, to whom the same description as a player applies. They had much in common.

The reason Cobb comes up in this debate is the question of whether "personal character" is a qualification for the Hall of Fame. If it IS, then Ty Cobb's entry is highly questionable -- yet he was inducted easily as soon as eligible, even before his change of heart about racial attitudes and so forth. It's a question of a double standard.

If "personal character" is NOT to be a hindrance, then there's no argument for excluding Pete Rose from the Hall along with Cobb, the player whose record he broke.

It's an either/or. IMHO since the Hall is purportedly about performance on the field and not about whether you're a liar, gambler, racist or beat people up, then both Cobb and Rose belong there. Can't have one and not the other.

Personal character as it pertains to your career as a player, not your personal life. Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford, and Billy Martin were not upstanding citizens when they were terrorizing New York night clubs and starting fights, but it never carried over to what they did as players, save for hangovers.

Cobb was elected in the very first HoF class.

 

[Papageorgio]

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

Cobb was hated when he played the game and hated in later life. When he died, only one teammate showed up for his funeral
I seem to remember he did actually cheat when he played.

Never. But nobody played the game harder than he did. He would sharpen his cleats to draw blood sliding into a base, and is famous for saying "baseball is no pink tea". He treated it as war.

Cobb was also involved in game fixing ith Tris Speaker in September 1919, a month before the Blacksox

Ty Cobb - Rule 5 An Analysis of the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame Character Clause

It was alleged he was game fixing, it was by a player released by Cobb and after no one picked him up off waivers, he went to the commissioner, but the player never showed at the hearing, so it was dismissed.

 

[Pogo]

The reason we have Rule #1 is because it "may" lead to cheating

Those doing PEDs DID CHEAT.....they won games they should have lost, they won awards they shouldn't have won, broke records they shouldn't have broken and received contracts they didn't earn

That level of cheating vastly exceeds what Pete Rose was accused of

And all of them have been denied entry into the Hall. As it should be.

Agreed -- and the cheating they were doing arguably affected the outcome of at least some of the games they played in.
The same cannot be said of Pete Rose.

Hell I remember Derek Cheater acknowledging being hit by a pitch to get on base. Think he'll be kept out of the Hall?

If he leaned over the plate to try to get hit, he would have been called out.

It is not against the rules to stay in the batter's box with a pitch coming at you.

I know my baseball.

So do I -- that's not what he did. He fully acknowledged, right after the game, that he was not hit. Don't you remember where the phrase "Derek Cheater" comes from?
I'll see if I can find it.

Here ya go -- wasn't hard:

Caption: Derek Jeter made his best case for an Academy Award on Wednesday night in Tampa.
​

>> In just about any profession -- except on Wall Street, where such practices seem to be rewarded with hefty bonuses -- that kind of thing will get you fired and probably blackballed.

In professional sports, it gets you the reputation of being "a gamer," a guy who will do anything to get an edge over his opponent. It is precisely that sort of thinking that gave rise to the steroid mentality.

Jeter did nothing so egregious, of course, and no one in his or her right mind could have expected him to tell the umpire that the ball did not, in fact, hit him, which he readily admitted after the game.

But there was something a little grubby about the whole act, something a little desperate, and something that reminded me of how much I scorn outfielders who jump up screaming they caught that sinking liner that the replay clearly shows they trapped, or the wide receiver who insists he caught the pass that the eye in the sky proves to have skipped.

It reveals a fundamental lack of integrity we have come, sadly, to expect of the average person, but not from Derek Jeter, who over the past 15 years has shown himself to be anything but average. << -- Wallace Matthews, ESPN​

That's on the umpire.

I remember Reggie Jackson sticking his leg out to get hit with a ball thrown by the shortstop on a double play. The umpires didn't call it. Oh, well.

As much as I loathe, detest, despise and absolutely disdain the Wankees -- and you'll never find anyone who loathes them more -- that's weak. The runner has to get out of the way of a fielder or a hit ball, not so much a thrown ball. It's on the fielder to throw around the baserunner. If the ball's coming right at him and the runner chooses not to move, ultimately it's the fielder's error. The SS can't assume "if I throw there, the guy will have to dodge and let my throw through".

(/offtopic)

 

[Synthaholic]

Ty Cobb absolutely belongs in the HoF. Every despicable personality trait of Cobb's was limited to his behaviour off the field.

Oh no that's not true:

>> "In 1907 during spring training in Augusta, Georgia, a black groundskeeper named Bungy, whom Cobb had known for years, attempted to shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder."[18] The "overly familiar greeting infuriated" Cobb, who attacked Bungy. When Bungy's wife tried to defend him, Cobb choked her. The assault was only stopped when catcher Charles "Boss" Schmidt knocked Cobb out.[49] In 1908, Cobb attacked a black laborer in Detroit who complained when Cobb stepped into freshly poured asphalt; Cobb was found guilty of battery but the sentence was suspended.[18] << (Wiki Ty Cobb page)
​

Now, if Blacks had been allowed to play alongside him, it would have been a different story, and he would have no doubt been kicked out of the game or arrested for assault, or worse. He was an unrepentant racist by his own admission, and once threw a Black woman down a flight of stairs because she spoke to him.

And yet, in his later years he changed those views, as did the country around him, praised Jackie Robinson and denounced the color line. People do grow.

I think it's clear that I was referring to his play on the field during regular seasons. He was ultra-aggressive, but he did not cheat. Cheating would have offended him greatly, as he considered himself a Southern Gentleman.

His story has yet been told in a movie. I was so excited when they announced 'Cobb', starring Tommy Lee Jones, in the late 1980s. What a disappointment, as it only covered his later, paranoid life after baseball.

Cobb was hated when he played the game and hated in later life. When he died, only one teammate showed up for his funeral
I seem to remember he did actually cheat when he played.

Never. But nobody played the game harder than he did. He would sharpen his cleats to draw blood sliding into a base, and is famous for saying "baseball is no pink tea". He treated it as war.

Cobb was also involved in game fixing with Tris Speaker in September 1919, a month before the Blacksox

Ty Cobb - Rule 5 An Analysis of the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame Character Clause

Please cite the rule that was in effect in 1919, that he broke.

See, that's what this is all about: there was a rule that everyone in the game knew, that if you broke this one rule it was the end of your career.

Pete Rose broke that rule repeatedly.