Personal responsibility vs. Public safety net

[ThePickledPunk]

Your 95% includes many who won't, as opposed to cant.

My knee surgery was 28k. More than half of what I make in a year and twice as much as any car I've ever bought. Even with insurance, I paid upwards of 3K of that, which was hard, as they only gave me 2 years to pay it off - but I did. Is that a won't or a can't?

Sounds like neither, SINCE YOU PAID IT BACK- which should not have been too hard to do given your salary.

I paid over 30k of a 50 k debt.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

I responded to your mistaken notion that basic healthcare is denied to millions.

AGAIN! God,you are so dense... Basic healthcare is not provided by hospitals. THAT IS EMERGENCY OR CRISIS CARE. Basic health care available to all would prevent ER and emergency visits.

But, student loans are a government "entitlement" program, right. According to you, if you can't pay for it, you shouldn't have it. Wouldn't that be the same for an education?

 

[Ravi]

Your 95% includes many who won't, as opposed to cant.

My knee surgery was 28k. More than half of what I make in a year and twice as much as any car I've ever bought. Even with insurance, I paid upwards of 3K of that, which was hard, as they only gave me 2 years to pay it off - but I did. Is that a won't or a can't?

Sounds like neither, SINCE YOU PAID IT BACK- which should not have been too hard to do given your salary.

I paid over 30k of a 50 k debt.

Who paid the other $20,000

 

[Mr. Peepers]

which should not have been too hard to do given your salary.

I was only making @ 28K at the time. This was in '06. You get paid a lot less in the South than you do up here.

 

[Nosmo King]

What kind of country do we want to be?

Do we want people begging in the streets to feed their children?
Do we want people sleeping in the streets?
Do we want people wandering among us carrying infectious disease?
Do we want people dying in the streets?

That is how third world countries operate. There is no "safety net" in third world countries. You live or die based on your lot in life.

We are the wealtiest country on earth. How do we want to be known based on our treatment of citizens?

Shouldn't we strive for the best?

Absolutely. And you cannot "strive for the best" by simultaneously encouraging mediocrity.

Encouraging mediocrity? Avoiding public health issues, as described accurately by rightwinger, is not encouraging mediocrity. We do deserve to have the highest standard of living we can maintain. We work hard. But to eliminate the public safety net programs would prove disastrous for us.

So many Conservatives feel we should reduce or eliminate programs. Yet, so many Conservatives are poor history students. Do the words "Great Depression" mean anything?

 

[ThePickledPunk]

I responded to your mistaken notion that basic healthcare is denied to millions.

AGAIN! God,you are so dense... Basic healthcare is not provided by hospitals. THAT IS EMERGENCY OR CRISIS CARE. Basic health care available to all would prevent ER and emergency visits.

But, student loans are a government "entitlement" program, right. According to you, if you can't pay for it, you shouldn't have it. Wouldn't that be the same for an education?

Basic health care is available to all, albeit in emergency rooms. Noone is denied care.

And you are right- I do believe you should not take out a loan if you cannot pay it back, rergardless of what it is for.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

My knee surgery was 28k. More than half of what I make in a year and twice as much as any car I've ever bought. Even with insurance, I paid upwards of 3K of that, which was hard, as they only gave me 2 years to pay it off - but I did. Is that a won't or a can't?

Sounds like neither, SINCE YOU PAID IT BACK- which should not have been too hard to do given your salary.

I paid over 30k of a 50 k debt.

Who paid the other $20,000

I took the time to negotiate settlements.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

which should not have been too hard to do given your salary.

I was only making @ 28K at the time. This was in '06. You get paid a lot less in the South than you do up here.

you said the knee surgery was 28k- more than half of what you make in a year.

In any event- wages are lower in the south. so are expenses. 75k in San diego is not much, either.

 

[Ravi]

Sounds like neither, SINCE YOU PAID IT BACK- which should not have been too hard to do given your salary.

I paid over 30k of a 50 k debt.

Who paid the other $20,000

I took the time to negotiate settlements.

In other words, the hospital ate $20,000 and passed the costs onto the rest of us. Tool.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

What kind of country do we want to be?

Do we want people begging in the streets to feed their children?
Do we want people sleeping in the streets?
Do we want people wandering among us carrying infectious disease?
Do we want people dying in the streets?

That is how third world countries operate. There is no "safety net" in third world countries. You live or die based on your lot in life.

We are the wealtiest country on earth. How do we want to be known based on our treatment of citizens?

Shouldn't we strive for the best?

Absolutely. And you cannot "strive for the best" by simultaneously encouraging mediocrity.

Encouraging mediocrity? Avoiding public health issues, as described accurately by rightwinger, is not encouraging mediocrity. We do deserve to have the highest standard of living we can maintain. We work hard. But to eliminate the public safety net programs would prove disastrous for us.

So many Conservatives feel we should reduce or eliminate programs. Yet, so many Conservatives are poor history students. Do the words "Great Depression" mean anything?

Yes, encouraging mediocrity. Having govt provide what the individual should provide. I like your phrase "We deserve the highest standard of living we can maintain"- very leftist. You deserve the highest standard of living you can afford. No "we" should be involved with your standard of living.

 

[manifold]

I think it's time to remind many people here that these two ideals conflict, and at the margin, they are mutually exclusive. That is, any action that beefs up the public safety net, has a necessarily negative impact on personal responsibility and any action that weakens the safety net has a positive impact on personal responsibility. It's fundamental human nature. If you cast a wider safety net, more people will jump into it.

Some people advocate eliminating the safety net completely. This would surely force more people, for better or worse, to be responsible for their own needs.

Some people advocate for a public safety net that completely eliminates hardship, regardless of one's personal choices.

I prefer somewhere in between, but I certainly do not fool myself into thinking you can have the best of both.


Discuss.

If you want to see what poverty looks like in a country with a safety net, you can look at the United States.

If you want to see what poverty looks like in a country with little or no safety net, go to India.

Then let us know what you prefer.

So I take this to mean you believe that the safety net currently in place in the United States is of adequate depth and breadth.

You may have a very good point.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Who paid the other $20,000

I took the time to negotiate settlements.

In other words, the hospital ate $20,000 and passed the costs onto the rest of us. Tool.

My medical bills were divided up between dozens of providers. And what part of negotiated settlement do you not understand? At least I took the time and energy to dig myself out of a self-created hole- I did not whine and cry about how the governmnet failed to protect me. Pussy.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

In any event- wages are lower in the south. so are expenses.

Well, except for health care. It's as outrageous there as it is anywhere. Both of my screws in my knee were $450 each. And 28K is not just half my wages but almost all of my wages for the year. Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was a deifinite struggle to pay those bills.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

In any event- wages are lower in the south. so are expenses.

Well, except for health care. It's as outrageous there as it is anywhere. Both of my screws in my knee were $450 each. And 28K is not just half my wages but almost all of my wages for the year. Sorry, I wasn't clear. It was a deifinite struggle to pay those bills.

Well, Fishmonger- I commend you for being responsible.

 

[manifold]

Do the words "Great Depression" mean anything?

I always did wonder what was so great about it.

 

[Nosmo King]

Absolutely. And you cannot "strive for the best" by simultaneously encouraging mediocrity.

Encouraging mediocrity? Avoiding public health issues, as described accurately by rightwinger, is not encouraging mediocrity. We do deserve to have the highest standard of living we can maintain. We work hard. But to eliminate the public safety net programs would prove disastrous for us.

So many Conservatives feel we should reduce or eliminate programs. Yet, so many Conservatives are poor history students. Do the words "Great Depression" mean anything?

Yes, encouraging mediocrity. Having govt provide what the individual should provide. I like your phrase "We deserve the highest standard of living we can maintain"- very leftist. You deserve the highest standard of living you can afford. No "we" should be involved with your standard of living.

When your elderly relatives require hospitalization, is it their sole responsibility to pay the bill, regardless of their means to do so? If it is, they could surly die due to lack of income and funds. Capitalism kills another old person in the name of the bottom line.

When your neighbor losses his job due to no fault of his own, then losses his home, it will most certainly go vacant. Why? Because if your neighbor looses his job, probably others in your community will be in the same boat. Now, you have vacant homes peppering your neighborhood.

Tell me, Capitalist, what becomes of your investment then? Do vacant homes enhance property values? Do dead grandparents burnish the image of Capitalism?

Thus the "we" in my post.

 

[Ravi]

I took the time to negotiate settlements.

In other words, the hospital ate $20,000 and passed the costs onto the rest of us. Tool.

My medical bills were divided up between dozens of providers. And what part of negotiated settlement do you not understand? At least I took the time and energy to dig myself out of a self-created hole- I did not whine and cry about how the governmnet failed to protect me. Pussy.

And that changes exactly what? Fact is, you stuck the health care providers with $20,000 in non-payment. Basically what you are is someone that doesn't give much thought to personal responsibility...you have no problem not paying your debts and you have no problem with the hospitals passing on the cost of YOUR treatment to others.

You're a fraud.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Well, Fishmonger- I commend you for being responsible.

Wow, name-calling for no reason. I have always been responsible and a saver, FYI, and so have all of my what you would label "progressive" friends. In fact, most of them are doing quite well, thank you. Kinda punches a hole in your handout rant, huh. Why are you calling me a fishmonger? That makes no sense.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Encouraging mediocrity? Avoiding public health issues, as described accurately by rightwinger, is not encouraging mediocrity. We do deserve to have the highest standard of living we can maintain. We work hard. But to eliminate the public safety net programs would prove disastrous for us.

So many Conservatives feel we should reduce or eliminate programs. Yet, so many Conservatives are poor history students. Do the words "Great Depression" mean anything?

Yes, encouraging mediocrity. Having govt provide what the individual should provide. I like your phrase "We deserve the highest standard of living we can maintain"- very leftist. You deserve the highest standard of living you can afford. No "we" should be involved with your standard of living.

When your elderly relatives require hospitalization, is it their sole responsibility to pay the bill, regardless of their means to do so? If it is, they could surly die due to lack of income and funds. Capitalism kills another old person in the name of the bottom line.

When your neighbor losses his job due to no fault of his own, then losses his home, it will most certainly go vacant. Why? Because if your neighbor looses his job, probably others in your community will be in the same boat. Now, you have vacant homes peppering your neighborhood.

Tell me, Capitalist, what becomes of your investment then? Do vacant homes enhance property values? Do dead grandparents burnish the image of Capitalism?

Thus the "we" in my post.

The regular course of life is that you get the services you pay for. In the case of the elderly, or anyone else, that requires hospitalization- there are safety nets for them. But yes, ultimately, their care is their responsibility. And when one lives in a house they cannot afford- they usually lose the house. Seems pretty fair, actually. And when you purchase a home- it carries the risk that the neighborhood will go south.

Tell me, Socialist- do you think you are entitled to good health and a nice home? At whose cost?

 

[ThePickledPunk]

In other words, the hospital ate $20,000 and passed the costs onto the rest of us. Tool.

My medical bills were divided up between dozens of providers. And what part of negotiated settlement do you not understand? At least I took the time and energy to dig myself out of a self-created hole- I did not whine and cry about how the governmnet failed to protect me. Pussy.

And that changes exactly what? Fact is, you stuck the health care providers with $20,000 in non-payment. Basically what you are is someone that doesn't give much thought to personal responsibility...you have no problem not paying your debts and you have no problem with the hospitals passing on the cost of YOUR treatment to others.

You're a fraud.

No, I did not "stick" them with anything. Two sides negotiated an agreement for a reduced debt, which I paid. That is the essence of fairness. You are a dope.