People Support Higher Taxes to Reduce the Deficit by a 2-to-1 Margin

[thereisnospoon]

For the sake of argument, I'm going to presume that your stats are correct despite doubting them. Even if that many people supported raising taxes to fix the deficit, raising taxes wouldn't fix the deficit. It would merely slow the economy and we would see even less revenue than we have before

That's the point. The tax increase in the proposal will do NOTHING to reduce deficits or significantly increase revenue.
The tax increase is a show. It gives the democrats something to place in their campaign ads.
"we raised taxes on the rich so you could find a job".. Or some such other smelly dog pile.

 

[Wacky Quacky]

Except the deficit will not be reduced by higher taxes. Government will simply expand to use the new dollars. This is why reducing programs first is so important.

Thank you!

This is the issue with raising taxes. I could care less about how much the higher earners pay. But there's no point in raising taxes if the government is just going to spend that new revenue instead of paying down the debt with it. This is why I support cutting spending first, so my government proves to me that they're responsible enough to use new revenues wisely. After we cut all we can, then we can start taxing more to raise revenue.

Here's the deal though. Just what would you cut? Are you ready to do without the EPA? How about the CDC? Or FEMA? The federal government has been helping out state and local governments, that would have to end and we would all have to cough up more to support where we live.

And something I haven't seen much of is...if that happens and they start closing agencies, what are we supposed to do with all the unemployed people? Thousands and thousands more people will be out of work. And it looks like there aren't any private jobs on the horizon. You really think that all those people and their families can make it without a job, or unemployment benefits? What do we do about them?

How about endind the wars like Obama promised. Or closing all foreign military bases. Or cutting foreign aid until we get our own house in order. But that's just a start, more cuts will have to be made, and they will hurt a little, but that's what needs to happen to put this country on the right track.

If we loose a few agencies and put some people out of work then so be it. Better to have that then becoming insolvent and spiraling into chaos like Greece.

And right now taxes would absolutely not help. Washington would simply find new spending for any new revenue. We don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Here's the deal though. Just what would you cut? Are you ready to do without the EPA? How about the CDC? Or FEMA? The federal government has been helping out state and local governments, that would have to end and we would all have to cough up more to support where we live.

And something I haven't seen much of is...if that happens and they start closing agencies, what are we supposed to do with all the unemployed people? Thousands and thousands more people will be out of work. And it looks like there aren't any private jobs on the horizon. You really think that all those people and their families can make it without a job, or unemployment benefits? What do we do about them?

We shouldn't make cuts because they will hurt.

Guess what, not making cuts will hurt worse. Do you want your children to go through what is happening in Greece and Portugal? Wouldn't you rather make hard choices now than to have worse ones forced on you in a few years?

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not against budget cuts. But I am for sensible budget cuts. If the right doesn't pass the debt ceiling bill, it could be worse then Greece or Portugal. There hasn't been one person I respect that says we shouldn't pass the debt ceiling. Even Reagan raised the debt ceiling 19 times.

In 1983, Reagan warned that the consequences of failing to raise the nation’s borrowing limit “are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate”:

FLASHBACK: In 1983, Reagan Warned Of ‘Incalculable Damage’ If Debt Ceiling Wasn’t Raised | ThinkProgress

IMO it has only been a little over 2 yrs. since Obama took office. He came in when the economy was really bottoming out. And now, some are trying to get him to make a decision that he feels is unadvised. And from what I've been reading, it's the first time in history that any president has been pushed to the wall they way the right is pushing Obama.

I watched an interview with Lawrence Summers yesterday. He said that the economy is moving, it's only growing at about 2% but that it was still good that it is growing. If they don't raise the debt ceiling it will stall. And he feels that would be a disaster.

Anyway, it's my long way of saying I really disagree that raising the debt ceiling would move us towards a Greece/Portugal emergency. And in fact not raising it would be much worse.

No one is talking about not raising. The real problem is that the Democrats want to raise the limit without making a deal about reducing the deficit. That is unacceptable.

 

[Susan45]

Try teh question: DO you support raising taxes on fat old rich guys with private airplanes so Medicare can pay for Grandma's life saving surgery.
I'll bet the results will be even higher.

The Republican base is engaging in confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true.[Note 1][1] As a result, people gather evidence and recall information from memory selectively, and interpret it in a biased way. The biases appear in particular for emotionally significant issues and for established beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love it when people talk about confirmation bias and completely miss the point.

You are only seeing what is supporting your position, and are deliberately selecting the data that supports it.

The Democrats are opposed to spending cuts of any type, and Pelosi has flatly said she will vote against them. If you look at your numbers again you will see that that position is actually even further off base, even among Democrats, than the Republicans who are opposing all tax hikes. Yet, for some reason, you are harping only on the Republicans who are refusing to give, and not talking about the Democrats. Both sides need to give for a deal to pass, and Boehner keeps telling Obama, and the press, that simple truth. Nothing out there will pass the House, including Obama's imaginary proposal for $4 trillion in cuts and $1 trillion in tax hikes.

I think you have misunderstood what Pelosi said about spending cuts.

After a contentious White House meeting with President Obama and other Congressional leaders, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) returned to the Capitol and drew an important red line: Members of her caucus won't vote for a grand bargain to raise the debt limit and reduce future deficits if the final deal includes cuts to Medicare and Social Security benefits -- and that means it probably won't pass.

"You [asked], 'could the changes compromise the vote?'" Pelosi said at a Thursday afternoon briefing near the House chamber. "I said yes."

She goes on to say:

For instance, she said, "If there is some kind of a cap on discretionary spending are there firewalls between domestic vs. defense spending so that we don't run into a situation where there are no defense cuts and they're all domestic discretionary," she said. "As far as our meeting was concerned, I think I can legitimately put to our caucus that their views have been heard and very strongly so."

Pelosi: Medicare, Social Security Benefit Cuts Are Line In The Sand On Debt Limit Bill | TPMDC

As you can see, she will be open to other cuts, just not healthcare and SS.

 

[thereisnospoon]

For the sake of argument, I'm going to presume that your stats are correct despite doubting them. Even if that many people supported raising taxes to fix the deficit, raising taxes wouldn't fix the deficit. It would merely slow the economy and we would see even less revenue than we have before

Cutting spending will also slow the economy. But that's all beside the point.

This shows that the Republicans are on the wrong side of this issue with the American people because their Tea Party base is fanatical and religious about the tax issue. So the GOP is in a box.

But if you read through those polls, they generally say that people want more spending cuts than tax increases to address the deficit. They just don't think that it should come entirely from spending cuts.

"cutting spending will slow the economy"....Ok explain how this will happen.
BTW, if you can find the questions of this poll and post them, then you could state "read through the polls"..
You have no idea what is in the polls. The only thing you know is this one got you all lathered up because you never saw a tax you didn't like.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

By the way, the debt ceiling has already been raised twice since Obama has been president.

As for this being the first time in history, we actually defaulted on the debt once, and we have pushed the limit of the debt ceiling more than once, the last time being when Carter was president. It isn't your fault you have not heard that, the news is being really careful to paint this as being a never before in history thing.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Republican base is engaging in confirmation bias.

.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love it when people talk about confirmation bias and completely miss the point.

You are only seeing what is supporting your position, and are deliberately selecting the data that supports it.

The Democrats are opposed to spending cuts of any type, and Pelosi has flatly said she will vote against them. If you look at your numbers again you will see that that position is actually even further off base, even among Democrats, than the Republicans who are opposing all tax hikes. Yet, for some reason, you are harping only on the Republicans who are refusing to give, and not talking about the Democrats. Both sides need to give for a deal to pass, and Boehner keeps telling Obama, and the press, that simple truth. Nothing out there will pass the House, including Obama's imaginary proposal for $4 trillion in cuts and $1 trillion in tax hikes.

I think you have misunderstood what Pelosi said about spending cuts.

After a contentious White House meeting with President Obama and other Congressional leaders, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) returned to the Capitol and drew an important red line: Members of her caucus won't vote for a grand bargain to raise the debt limit and reduce future deficits if the final deal includes cuts to Medicare and Social Security benefits -- and that means it probably won't pass.

"You [asked], 'could the changes compromise the vote?'" Pelosi said at a Thursday afternoon briefing near the House chamber. "I said yes."

She goes on to say:

For instance, she said, "If there is some kind of a cap on discretionary spending are there firewalls between domestic vs. defense spending so that we don't run into a situation where there are no defense cuts and they're all domestic discretionary," she said. "As far as our meeting was concerned, I think I can legitimately put to our caucus that their views have been heard and very strongly so."

Pelosi: Medicare, Social Security Benefit Cuts Are Line In The Sand On Debt Limit Bill | TPMDC

As you can see, she will be open to other cuts, just not healthcare and SS.

I did not misunderstand her at all.

She doesn't understand what is happening, and is resentful. Some of the media is trying to prop her up, but no one in DC cares.

At Thursday’s White House meeting between President Obama and congressional leaders, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner laid out in stark terms the awful economic repercussions of allowing the debt ceiling to lapse. Everyone in the room agreed that defaulting on U.S. debt would be disastrous and that something must be done. At that point, Nancy Pelosi asked: Why couldn’t the debt ceiling be decoupled from deficit reduction?

Her query, after so many weeks of reports and talks centered on deficit reduction tied to a debt ceiling deal, visibly surprised some leaders in the room, several Republican and Democratic sources say. Obama politely informed the House Minority Leader, those same sources say, that that train had left the station weeks ago.

Has Nancy Pelosi Been Marginalized in the Debt Debate? | Swampland

Feel free to find all the quotes you want, she is an idiot who will not vote for a spending cut.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Cutting spending will also slow the economy. But that's all beside the point.

This shows that the Republicans are on the wrong side of this issue with the American people because their Tea Party base is fanatical and religious about the tax issue. So the GOP is in a box.

But if you read through those polls, they generally say that people want more spending cuts than tax increases to address the deficit. They just don't think that it should come entirely from spending cuts.

I'll wager that those in favor of tax increases are in favor of tax increases on people other than themselves....

Not me. I have no problem giving back. I was born in the US, and thanks to incredible luck and hard work I have never wanted for anything. I'm perfectly happy giving up discretionary spending and I think everyone else should be too in these tough times.

Give up your Starbucks/Dunkin' Donuts.

It really isn't that hard.

Luck has nothing to do with it.
I will maintain that most people are well aware that our taxes are necessary to fund government.
What we object to is the waste, fraud and abuse of our tax dollars. Not a day goes by where we are exposed to stories of incredible nonsense in Washington.
Government takes our money, misuses it then runs out. Government then goes to the Treasury and tells them to print more money to make up the difference. That devalues the Dollar which suppresses our buying power. Essentially this is another tax.
Next, government demands more taxes. Why? Because they say the need more money.
The most insidious part is when politicians are told they cannot have more, they threaten to cut out things that hurt people the most. Such as laying off public safety people and shutting down parks and other things which politicians are certain to create the most pain. Meanwhile these jerks keep paying themselves.
If you feel so compelled to as you say "give back" be our guest and write a check.
You're not giving back. You are being made to feel guilty over the stupidity of watching politicians YOU voted for blow money like they found it in the street.
Ya know what the true definition of giving back is? Giving back is when you donate time or money to your community. Or help a friend or relative who is in need.
One cannot "give" to government. Government already "demands".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In 2001 Bush had to suspend pension payments to continue borrowing money, and that went on for months. I got to the point where the US only had $15 million in cash reserves.

I will admit I didn't pay much attention to politics in 2001 and 2002, but if we were that close to defaulting how did I miss all the huge stories and media hype?

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL31967_20100128.pdf

 

[thereisnospoon]

Someone needs to tell 67% of the public then that they can send the IRS as much as they'd like. Leave the other third of us alone.
Fucking idiots.

Huh? 67 percent??? Are you saying that is who doesn't pay taxes?

And who are the rest of us? If you are "the rest of us" you are benefiting from living here.

Benefiting from living here.?
Fuck you.
I was born here. I am not a guest. This is MY COUNTRY.
The country benefits from the people. Not the government.
It is people who make this nation great.
Your idiotic premise implies it is government that is benevolent and that we all owe something to the politicians. No. It's the other way around. The government exists and operates because we allow it to do so.

 

[shintao]

It appears that Republicans have walked away from a historic opportunity to reduce the deficit because of their obsessive insistance that not one penny come from higher revenues. Recent polls, however, suggest that the American people are not so obstinate and are more than willing to accept some increase in taxes to reduce the deficit. There is a high degree of consistency in every poll I could find on this topic. ...

To see the polls, click the link.

People Support Higher Taxes to Reduce the Deficit by a 2-to-1 Margin | Capital Gains and Games

And from Quinnipiac

Voters will blame Republicans over Obama 48 - 34 percent if the debt limit is not raised;

National (US) Poll * July 14, 2011 * President Is Best Of The Worst - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

I guess the people are waking up to the tax-cut myth of the retards.

 

[frazzledgear]

Don't know where you got your facts about people supporting higher taxes. No "people" around where I live are in favor of higher taxes. They are in favor of less government spending though...

Really? You must have been looking at the highly controversial Quinnipiac poll right? The one claiming voters were practically BEGGING for tax hikes? But refused to ask if the debt ceiling should be raised at all. Yeah polls trying to manipulate the outcome never ask that question because 2-1 people think it shouldn't be raised and its time to swallow the bitter pill instead of trying to foist the pain of what was done by THIS generation to one that didn't have a damn thing to do with it or any say about it. Naturally THE most selfish, self-centered and ignorant generation I've seen in my lifetime is pushing to force the pain onto the next generation instead. You know, the one not even born yet or still in diapers -along with THEIR children?

This is a Rasmussen poll that came out TODAY that got the exact opposite result -showing voters OPPOSE tax hikes as part of any negotiations of raising the debt ceiling. Not even close.

Rasmussen: Voters oppose tax hikes in debt-ceiling deal 55/34 « Hot Air

Those insisting we need tax hikes are out of their minds. Tax hikes when the economy is poor and unemployment is already high will ALWAYS increase unemployment even more. The increase in revenue is temporary and unsustainable as more people join the ranks of the unemployed. Which means FEWER taxpayers and LESS government revenue. And LOTS more pain and misery for millions. Tax increases can only provide a sustainable increase in revenue when the economy is good with close to full employment. And of course when accounting tricks are being passed off as "spending cuts" nothing in that equation changes either and in fact Democrat controlled Congresses typically increase spending even above ANY increase in revenue -no matter how temporary and fleeting that increase may be.

Disgusting when people choose to remain ignorant about this kind of thing -especially when Obama really looks a lot like that major loser Jimmy Carter, THE worst President in my lifetime. Carter claimed he was only targeting the wealthy for tax hikes too plus put a "luxury" tax on stuff like jewelry and pleasure boats -you know, because hey, they just weren't paying their "fair" share! Even though like today, the wealthiest in this country pay the lion's share of all federal income taxes -so Democrats' idea of "fair share" is anything but "fair". When people have none of their money at stake as about 50% in this country don't because they don't even pay any federal income tax at all - its pretty easy to constantly insist we need to raise taxes more and more on the only people paying them while dragging out that tired class warfare phrase about how they just aren't paying their "fair share"! In less than four years Carter not only gave us double digit unemployment, double digit inflation and double digit interest rates, he also decimated these industries, throwing workers in these two on the pile of unemployed as well. It wasn't the wealthy that took the hit -it was the middle and lower classes that did, just like they always do when class warfare policies are enacted. Unemployment among blacks in urban areas was well above 30%. But I'm sure they were so grateful for his WORDS insisting he was helping them while his POLICIES ruined their lives. The pain from class warfare policies the left are just wild about will ALWAYS run downhill, gathering steam as it does -so those taking the biggest hit with the most pain are always going to be the very ones least able to afford it and the very people the class warfare mongers falsely claim to be trying to help. They know good and well what these policies do and who is REALLY harmed the most by them and there is a reason they pursue them -its BECAUSE of who gets hurt the most by them. Democrats and the left firmly believe the more people they can put on the dole or receiving government handouts and entitlement payments, the better for their PARTY. The more they believe these are the people who will vote for them if they just promise to give them more "freebies" that are anything but free. They are soul destroying policies but policies the Democrats believe best serve their party. Not what is best for these people because no one in their right mind believes sapping the individual's independence benefits that person - and sure as hell not what is best for this nation. But it proves once again that Democrats will always put their party's best interests before any other. And no surprise they are doing so again RIGHT NOW.

Our problem is NOT that people aren't being taxed enough -our Congress while under Democrat control of both Congress and the White House, set this nation on an unsustainable path with their out of control spending spree. THAT is the "change" we got by voting in the most unqualified person to even run for President in over 100 years. But the last time someone as unqualified ran, at least people weren't stupid enough to elect him. THIS is what it looks like when someone is in over their head -and if you didn't know it, this guy is in way over his head along with the loser crowd he chose to surround himself with.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I'll wager that those in favor of tax increases are in favor of tax increases on people other than themselves....

Not me. I have no problem giving back. I was born in the US, and thanks to incredible luck and hard work I have never wanted for anything. I'm perfectly happy giving up discretionary spending and I think everyone else should be too in these tough times.

Give up your Starbucks/Dunkin' Donuts.

It really isn't that hard.

Nor I. Get rid of the Bush Tax cuts. For everyone.

They were galactically stupid to begin with.

\
How so? Explain.
Use facts. Not blogs or opinion pieces.

 

[shintao]

We shouldn't make cuts because they will hurt.

Guess what, not making cuts will hurt worse. Do you want your children to go through what is happening in Greece and Portugal? Wouldn't you rather make hard choices now than to have worse ones forced on you in a few years?

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not against budget cuts. But I am for sensible budget cuts. If the right doesn't pass the debt ceiling bill, it could be worse then Greece or Portugal. There hasn't been one person I respect that says we shouldn't pass the debt ceiling. Even Reagan raised the debt ceiling 19 times.

In 1983, Reagan warned that the consequences of failing to raise the nation’s borrowing limit “are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate”:

FLASHBACK: In 1983, Reagan Warned Of ‘Incalculable Damage’ If Debt Ceiling Wasn’t Raised | ThinkProgress

IMO it has only been a little over 2 yrs. since Obama took office. He came in when the economy was really bottoming out. And now, some are trying to get him to make a decision that he feels is unadvised. And from what I've been reading, it's the first time in history that any president has been pushed to the wall they way the right is pushing Obama.

I watched an interview with Lawrence Summers yesterday. He said that the economy is moving, it's only growing at about 2% but that it was still good that it is growing. If they don't raise the debt ceiling it will stall. And he feels that would be a disaster.

Anyway, it's my long way of saying I really disagree that raising the debt ceiling would move us towards a Greece/Portugal emergency. And in fact not raising it would be much worse.

No one is talking about not raising. The real problem is that the Democrats want to raise the limit without making a deal about reducing the deficit. That is unacceptable.

Why? Reagan raised it 19 times, so did he reduce the deficit each time? The right is just blowing smoke.

 

[shintao]

Not me. I have no problem giving back. I was born in the US, and thanks to incredible luck and hard work I have never wanted for anything. I'm perfectly happy giving up discretionary spending and I think everyone else should be too in these tough times.

Give up your Starbucks/Dunkin' Donuts.

It really isn't that hard.

Nor I. Get rid of the Bush Tax cuts. For everyone.

They were galactically stupid to begin with.

\
How so? Explain.
Use facts. Not blogs or opinion pieces.

Just use your head, if you can find it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not against budget cuts. But I am for sensible budget cuts. If the right doesn't pass the debt ceiling bill, it could be worse then Greece or Portugal. There hasn't been one person I respect that says we shouldn't pass the debt ceiling. Even Reagan raised the debt ceiling 19 times.

FLASHBACK: In 1983, Reagan Warned Of ‘Incalculable Damage’ If Debt Ceiling Wasn’t Raised | ThinkProgress

IMO it has only been a little over 2 yrs. since Obama took office. He came in when the economy was really bottoming out. And now, some are trying to get him to make a decision that he feels is unadvised. And from what I've been reading, it's the first time in history that any president has been pushed to the wall they way the right is pushing Obama.

I watched an interview with Lawrence Summers yesterday. He said that the economy is moving, it's only growing at about 2% but that it was still good that it is growing. If they don't raise the debt ceiling it will stall. And he feels that would be a disaster.

Anyway, it's my long way of saying I really disagree that raising the debt ceiling would move us towards a Greece/Portugal emergency. And in fact not raising it would be much worse.

No one is talking about not raising. The real problem is that the Democrats want to raise the limit without making a deal about reducing the deficit. That is unacceptable.

Why? Reagan raised it 19 times, so did he reduce the deficit each time? The right is just blowing smoke.

Great idea.

We should just throw in the towel and double the debt ceiling just like we did under Reagan, that worked out so well.

That is what you get for assuming I know less about anything than you do.

By the way, you are wrong about how often the debt ceiling went up while reagan was president. I would tell you the correct number, but you would just accuse me of nit picking if I did. I much prefer that you go out and try to prove me wrong and find out for yourself.

 

[Modbert]

Reagan Explains Why Raising the Debt Ceiling Is Necessary - Peter Fenn (usnews.com)

…the United states could be forced to default on its obligations for the first time in its history.

This country now possesses the strongest credit in the world. The full consequence of a default--or even the serious prospect of default--by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate….The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns.

-- Ronald Reagan on the Debt Ceiling in a letter to then-Majority Leader Howard Baker on November 16, 1983.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Reagan Explains Why Raising the Debt Ceiling Is Necessary - Peter Fenn (usnews.com)

…the United states could be forced to default on its obligations for the first time in its history.

This country now possesses the strongest credit in the world. The full consequence of a default--or even the serious prospect of default--by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate….The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns.

-- Ronald Reagan on the Debt Ceiling in a letter to then-Majority Leader Howard Baker on November 16, 1983.

Everyone is suddenly an expert on why the Republican presidents wanted to raise the debt ceiling. Funny thing considering how they all think those same presidents ruined the country. Talk about partisan hackery.

 

[Sactowndog]

raising taxes wouldn't fix the deficit. It would merely slow the economy and we would see even less revenue than we have before

This is an assumption not based in reality. Bush Jr. proved we are on the left side of the Laffer Curve, and at that point, raising tax rates will in fact bring in increased revenue.

Dude don't confuse the right wing with facts it bothers them. Not to mention a significant chunck of capital investments are earned in foreign markets and taxing them won't hurt the US economy at all.

One thing I do agree however is we are taxing corporate income to high for those who are small businesses and actually have to pay those rates.

 

[Flopper]

Here's the deal though. Just what would you cut? Are you ready to do without the EPA? How about the CDC? Or FEMA? The federal government has been helping out state and local governments, that would have to end and we would all have to cough up more to support where we live.

And something I haven't seen much of is...if that happens and they start closing agencies, what are we supposed to do with all the unemployed people? Thousands and thousands more people will be out of work. And it looks like there aren't any private jobs on the horizon. You really think that all those people and their families can make it without a job, or unemployment benefits? What do we do about them?

We shouldn't make cuts because they will hurt.

Guess what, not making cuts will hurt worse. Do you want your children to go through what is happening in Greece and Portugal? Wouldn't you rather make hard choices now than to have worse ones forced on you in a few years?

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not against budget cuts. But I am for sensible budget cuts. If the right doesn't pass the debt ceiling bill, it could be worse then Greece or Portugal. There hasn't been one person I respect that says we shouldn't pass the debt ceiling. Even Reagan raised the debt ceiling 19 times.

In 1983, Reagan warned that the consequences of failing to raise the nation’s borrowing limit “are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate”:

FLASHBACK: In 1983, Reagan Warned Of ‘Incalculable Damage’ If Debt Ceiling Wasn’t Raised | ThinkProgress

IMO it has only been a little over 2 yrs. since Obama took office. He came in when the economy was really bottoming out. And now, some are trying to get him to make a decision that he feels is unadvised. And from what I've been reading, it's the first time in history that any president has been pushed to the wall they way the right is pushing Obama.

I watched an interview with Lawrence Summers yesterday. He said that the economy is moving, it's only growing at about 2% but that it was still good that it is growing. If they don't raise the debt ceiling it will stall. And he feels that would be a disaster.

Anyway, it's my long way of saying I really disagree that raising the debt ceiling would move us towards a Greece/Portugal emergency. And in fact not raising it would be much worse.

You're exactly right. We certainly need to lower the deficit but not by creating an economic crisis that could lead to default. That would create a far worse situation than the Greek financial problem. I think the American voters are smart enough to know that you don't set your economic house in order by not paying your debts.

House Republicans were demanding major cuts and Democrats were offering small cuts so the House rejected it. Obama offers a 4 trillion dollar cut and House Republicans rejected it. I'm beginning to think they don't know what they want and that's pretty scary.