Penalty, tax.....call it whatever.....it is historic

[Xenophon]

Nope.

Yup.

 

[Oldandtired]

Such hysteria.

The penalty should be the same amount that it would have cost to pay for insurance otherwise it won't work.

If everyone must have insurance the pool becomes big enough that insurance becomes cheaper for everyone.

People that don't have insurance will still get treated for emergencies...in other words, they will still be living off of the rest of us.

It's mind boggling that conservatives want to give people a free ride.

No Ravi.....conservatives do not like to give people a free ride. Conservatives have a phiolosophy.....do what you need to do to better the country but do not infringe on our liberties and freedoms seeing as the basis of our cxountry is liberty and freedom.

For me to have my liberty stripped so we can ensure others get something that they want is a backward approach.

Help them all you want....and yes...at my cost of taxes if you wish...(it is my choice to earn an income that results in higher taxes)....BUT DO NOT MANDATE SOMETHING and take away my liberties.

It doesn't take away your liberties. In fact it gives you something...cheaper insurance and lower medical costs since hospitals will not be forced to pass the cost for dead beats onto the rest of us.

And as you pointed out above, you are not FORCED to earn income. No income, no tax penalty.

Wrong...no income and I am still obligated to buy insurance or face the penalty.

Avoid the truth if you wish...bottom line....there has never been a mandate by government to buy ANYTHING....

The minute a child is born, he or she has a mandate levied on them...buy insurance or suffer a financial penalty.

No freedom of choice...loss of liberty.

But please...spin it if you wish...avoid the reality all you like...it is STILL your freedom to do so.....but may not be your freedom to do so in the future.

 

[Oldandtired]

Those would both be unconstitutional. Silly.

Thank you.

Just like Obamacare.

Nope...income tax isn't unconstitutional and neither is making people participate in health care insurance. It would only enter that area if people were refused emergency treatment if they didn't have health insurance.

Funny, NO ONE ever complains about National Flood Insurance...something that many of us are FORCED to purchase.

You are forced to purchase flood insurance if you OPT to live in an area where it is required...but you have the choice to not live there....and there are plenty of places to live in the US where it is NOT a requirement.

You are avoiding the facts here.....THIS is the ONLY thing EVER levied on an American that is mandated regardless of where you live, what you drive, who you are, what you do....you have absolutely no choice...if you wish to be an American you MUST purchase health insurance or receive a fine.

If incorporated in the bill, it will be historic and the first step to eliminating freedom of choice.

 

[Ravi]

No Ravi.....conservatives do not like to give people a free ride. Conservatives have a phiolosophy.....do what you need to do to better the country but do not infringe on our liberties and freedoms seeing as the basis of our cxountry is liberty and freedom.

For me to have my liberty stripped so we can ensure others get something that they want is a backward approach.

Help them all you want....and yes...at my cost of taxes if you wish...(it is my choice to earn an income that results in higher taxes)....BUT DO NOT MANDATE SOMETHING and take away my liberties.

It doesn't take away your liberties. In fact it gives you something...cheaper insurance and lower medical costs since hospitals will not be forced to pass the cost for dead beats onto the rest of us.

And as you pointed out above, you are not FORCED to earn income. No income, no tax penalty.

Wrong...no income and I am still obligated to buy insurance or face the penalty.

Avoid the truth if you wish...bottom line....there has never been a mandate by government to buy ANYTHING....

The minute a child is born, he or she has a mandate levied on them...buy insurance or suffer a financial penalty.

No freedom of choice...loss of liberty.

But please...spin it if you wish...avoid the reality all you like...it is STILL your freedom to do so.....but may not be your freedom to do so in the future.

Wrong. I'm forced to buy national flood insurance. Failure #1

If you don't file an income tax return because you have no income you won't be penalized, which is why I believe they are doing it this way. Failure #2

 

[Ravi]

Thank you.

Just like Obamacare.

Nope...income tax isn't unconstitutional and neither is making people participate in health care insurance. It would only enter that area if people were refused emergency treatment if they didn't have health insurance.

Funny, NO ONE ever complains about National Flood Insurance...something that many of us are FORCED to purchase.

You are forced to purchase flood insurance if you OPT to live in an area where it is required...but you have the choice to not live there....and there are plenty of places to live in the US where it is NOT a requirement.

You are avoiding the facts here.....THIS is the ONLY thing EVER levied on an American that is mandated regardless of where you live, what you drive, who you are, what you do....you have absolutely no choice...if you wish to be an American you MUST purchase health insurance or receive a fine.

If incorporated in the bill, it will be historic and the first step to eliminating freedom of choice.

My house has never flooded no matter how severe the weather and it never will. I'm forced to buy the insurance in the same way you are forced to pay income tax. I can move, you can quit earning income.

 

[The Rabbi]

Nope...income tax isn't unconstitutional and neither is making people participate in health care insurance. It would only enter that area if people were refused emergency treatment if they didn't have health insurance.

Funny, NO ONE ever complains about National Flood Insurance...something that many of us are FORCED to purchase.

You are forced to purchase flood insurance if you OPT to live in an area where it is required...but you have the choice to not live there....and there are plenty of places to live in the US where it is NOT a requirement.

You are avoiding the facts here.....THIS is the ONLY thing EVER levied on an American that is mandated regardless of where you live, what you drive, who you are, what you do....you have absolutely no choice...if you wish to be an American you MUST purchase health insurance or receive a fine.

If incorporated in the bill, it will be historic and the first step to eliminating freedom of choice.

My house has never flooded no matter how severe the weather and it never will. I'm forced to buy the insurance in the same way you are forced to pay income tax. I can move, you can quit earning income.

But there is NOTHING you could do to avoid paying the penalty for not having gov't approved health insurance.

 

[Ravi]

You are forced to purchase flood insurance if you OPT to live in an area where it is required...but you have the choice to not live there....and there are plenty of places to live in the US where it is NOT a requirement.

You are avoiding the facts here.....THIS is the ONLY thing EVER levied on an American that is mandated regardless of where you live, what you drive, who you are, what you do....you have absolutely no choice...if you wish to be an American you MUST purchase health insurance or receive a fine.

If incorporated in the bill, it will be historic and the first step to eliminating freedom of choice.

My house has never flooded no matter how severe the weather and it never will. I'm forced to buy the insurance in the same way you are forced to pay income tax. I can move, you can quit earning income.

But there is NOTHING you could do to avoid paying the penalty for not having gov't approved health insurance.

Sure there is...the same way you avoid paying income tax. Don't earn any income.

 

[pal_of_poor]

Has anyone realized that whether we call it a penalty for not having insurance or a tax for not having insurance....it will be the first time that I can think of (correct me if I am wrong) where you are forced to pay for something (or have someone pay it for you) the minute you are born...

You, as an individual entity will have a government mandated cost of existance the minute you leave your mom's womb.

Am I the only one that finds that kind of eerie?

I don't like the tax, nor do I like the mandate to have to buy insurance.

Of course, that is the Baucus bill, the insurance company bill, more than any of them, so I'm hoping they strip that out, and put in a public option. But anytime you are trying to patch up an ultimately flawed system of putting private companies between people, and their health care, you are going to have a messed up system. We need single-payer.

The whole bill out of the finance committee is an attack on the people who don't own insurance, who don't feel they can afford insurance. The poorest people will be under threat of a fine, or have to buy very expensive insurance.

So yea, it sucks, and it is a bad idea. If you put that in the bill, then you need to at least call it an automatic buy-in to the public option, or forced buy-in perhaps. Then at least you get something out of it.

 

[pal_of_poor]

I don't have health insurance.

The insurance companies are a scam.

Chris, I've always felt like this too. Insurance is just another scam, the rich play on everyone else, another method to extract money from the poorest, and up to them.

What do you get? Not much. Imagine how much money most of you would have in a bank account, were to to have deposited the money from every type of insurance you've ever paid for, plus just CD interest? Many of you would be knocking on the door to rich. Instead, the insurance companies have taken your money, rarely paid a claim, invested it, and made boucoup bucks off of your poor ass.

Insurance in the current form is the worst way to manage disasters and accidents. Any government plan, with low administration costs, that had us pay just enough to cover what we have to pay out, would be better than a system dependent on profit, and turning you down to make more money.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Has anyone realized that whether we call it a penalty for not having insurance or a tax for not having insurance....it will be the first time that I can think of (correct me if I am wrong) where you are forced to pay for something (or have someone pay it for you) the minute you are born...

You, as an individual entity will have a government mandated cost of existance the minute you leave your mom's womb.

Am I the only one that finds that kind of eerie?

It's not that historic, cause Mitt Romney already did it in Massachusetts. But still, I don't agree with it.

Also, there are plenty of built-into-being-human costs that start the moment you are born. Born in a hospital? Already medical bills. Born at home? Someone's gotta pay the rent.

No....none of those are government mandated.....those are costs OTHERS incur to have you as a child.

But you, as a newborn, will be mandted by law to either buy insurance or pay the fine....and yes...others will pay it for you....but it is a mandate on YOU.

As for Romeny....you had the option to move to another state.....

Now it will be ....pay or move to another country

That you in advance for contributing to the welfare of the country. Good for you.

 

[Care4all]

No....none of those are government mandated.....those are costs OTHERS incur to have you as a child.

But you, as a newborn, will be mandted by law to either buy insurance or pay the fine....and yes...others will pay it for you....but it is a mandate on YOU.

First of all, I've yet to see any text of a bill that would have this "penalty" in it.
Second, I would imagine that the mandate would apply to parents, until the child is 18.

As for Romeny....you had the option to move to another state.....

Now it will be ....pay or move to another country

Where, odds are, healthcare will be free.

EDIT TO ADD: I do NOT support this penalty. Just playing devil's advocate.

Yes...as for the 18 thing...yes...but it is a mandate on YOU at the age of one second....very unusual.

A bit eerie.

but you get a tax credit for yourself the second you are born as well.... so tax policy has covered you, from the SECOND you are born....

and i don't agree with the mandate either, though i do understand the reasoning behind it.

 

[Navy1960]

It doesn't take away your liberties. In fact it gives you something...cheaper insurance and lower medical costs since hospitals will not be forced to pass the cost for dead beats onto the rest of us.

And as you pointed out above, you are not FORCED to earn income. No income, no tax penalty.

Wrong...no income and I am still obligated to buy insurance or face the penalty.

Avoid the truth if you wish...bottom line....there has never been a mandate by government to buy ANYTHING....

The minute a child is born, he or she has a mandate levied on them...buy insurance or suffer a financial penalty.

No freedom of choice...loss of liberty.

But please...spin it if you wish...avoid the reality all you like...it is STILL your freedom to do so.....but may not be your freedom to do so in the future.

Wrong. I'm forced to buy national flood insurance. Failure #1

If you don't file an income tax return because you have no income you won't be penalized, which is why I believe they are doing it this way. Failure #2

Nearly 20,000 communities across the United States and its territories participate in the NFIP by adopting and enforcing floodplain management ordinances to reduce future flood damage. In exchange, the NFIP makes Federally backed flood insurance available to homeowners, renters, and business owners in these communities. Community participation in the NFIP is voluntary.
FEMA: The National Flood Insurance Program


See the 10th Amendment, if your community wishes not to be a part of this program they can opt out at anytime, so it is not nationally mandatory and the only way you are forced to purchase it is because your LOCAL community chooses to participate in the program.

You must file a tax return if your income is above a certain level. The amount varies depending on filing status, age and the type of income you receive.
To File or Not To File

16th Amendment
The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers

No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.


Congress has the power to levy taxes Ravi according to constitution as long as they are uniform throughout the United States. the mere fact that a person(s) income does not meet the criteria set forth by congress to file a return does not exclude them from paying taxes should they earn income above that amount therefore meeting the uniform requirement. With the healthcare penalty which is basically a penalty for those that do not have a Govt. approved healthcare plan they violate that uniform clause because they seperate those people into groups according to a service not according to the states in which they live. If the Senate had wanted such a measure to pass constitutional muster they would have made it much like the Flood Insurance Program where communities participate or advocate a constitutional Amendment much like during prohibition

 

[Oldandtired]

First of all, I've yet to see any text of a bill that would have this "penalty" in it.
Second, I would imagine that the mandate would apply to parents, until the child is 18.


Where, odds are, healthcare will be free.

EDIT TO ADD: I do NOT support this penalty. Just playing devil's advocate.

Yes...as for the 18 thing...yes...but it is a mandate on YOU at the age of one second....very unusual.

A bit eerie.

but you get a tax credit for yourself the second you are born as well.... so tax policy has covered you, from the SECOND you are born....

and i don't agree with the mandate either, though i do understand the reasoning behind it.

point well made.

However, my point is a "cost" mandated to an individual to exist. It is very unusual....strange....eerie in my eyes. The day you are born, you are mandated by the FEDERAL government to buy something or be fined.

If inclusive in the bill, it will be an historic move that may pave future groundwork.

The flood insurance is not a mandate.....unless you opt to live where it exists. Auto insurance is not a mandate, unless you opt to drive.