Our founding fathers were not conservative

[M14 Shooter]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Some of them owned slaves.
Yeah. So?

 

[G.T.]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Some of them owned slaves.
Yeah. So?

So they were hypocrites of the highest order.

 

[Liability]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Wow. You are the first person to EVER -- in the history of our land -- notice that sad and ironic state of affairs.

Newsflash: it was a different day and age. The Founders and Framers were pretty much on the THE cutting edge. But, even so, they were still just human beings. They made mistakes. They engaged in hypocrisy.

The fact that many of them were flawed (not all of them did own slaves, by the way) doesn't change one iota the value of what they said, did, accomplished and stood for.

 

[G.T.]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Wow. You are the first person to EVER -- in the history of our land -- notice that sad and ironic state of affairs.

Newsflash: it was a different day and age. The Founders and Framers were pretty much on the THE cutting edge. But, even so, they were still just human beings. They made mistakes. They engaged in hypocrisy.

The fact that many of them were flawed (not all of them did own slaves, by the way) doesn't change one iota the value of what they said, did, accomplished and stood for.

It is sad


and ironic

 

[Gadawg73]

Going against the local church authority, owning their own breweries, breeding with their own slaves, smuggling commodities, rebeling against local authority:
Yeah, they are conservative actions!

 

[M14 Shooter]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Some of them owned slaves.
Yeah. So?

So they were hypocrites of the highest order.

Were their arguments unsound? Invalid?
Were they wrong?

 

[G.T.]

Some of them owned slaves.
Yeah. So?

So they were hypocrites of the highest order.

Were their arguments unsound? Invalid?
Were they wrong?

Arguments?

It's not what one says but what one does.

They drafted our founding documents. The Documents were revolutionary, and based on Liberties and Rights yet they did not take it upon themselves to address some very blatant discrepancies in regard to Liberty and Rights.

They didn't go far enough, they did for themselves but not for Women or Blacks. A selfish means guised in noble truisms, yet the balls to only put it 1/2 into practice.

 

[M14 Shooter]

So they were hypocrites of the highest order.

Were their arguments unsound? Invalid?
Were they wrong?

Arguments?
It's not what one says but what one does.

You didn't answer the question(s).

 

[G.T.]

Were their arguments unsound? Invalid?
Were they wrong?

Arguments?
It's not what one says but what one does.

You didn't answer the question(s).

For instance?

That a slave is less than a person, that women don't share equal rights, as prescribed by our original Laws.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Arguments?
It's not what one says but what one does.

You didn't answer the question(s).

For instance?
That a slave is less than a person, that women don't share equal rights, as prescribed by our original Laws.

You -stll- have not answered the questions.

Jefferson:
-[A]ll men are created equal
-That [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
-That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
-That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government

Was he wrong? How?

What you fail to recognize here is that, no matter what Hitler may have done, if he were to have said "genocide is wrong", he would be correct.

Or... the charge of "hypocrite" does nothing to diminish the soundness of someone's argument.

 

[G.T.]

You didn't answer the question(s).

For instance?
That a slave is less than a person, that women don't share equal rights, as prescribed by our original Laws.

You -stll- have not answered the questions.

Jefferson:
-[A]ll men are created equal
-That [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
-That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
-That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government

Was he wrong? How?

What you fail to recognize here is that, no matter what Hitler may have done, if he were to have said "genocide is wrong", he would be correct.

Or... the charge of "hypocrite" does nothing to diminish the soundness of someone's argument.

Sounds nice, but Jefferson or whomever touched the pen to the paper in writing and passing said laws, also was wrong in the way I depicted. Whomever says "All men are created Equal" and then legislates that all men are NOT equal is contradicting oneself and is in part *the part where they wrote it into law,* wholly wrong.

You can point to things they've said that are universally true, and I can point to laws they wrote that are wrong. I fail to see the difference in action when it's actions that are the fruition of said words.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Sounds nice, but Jefferson or whomever touched the pen to the paper in writing and passing said laws, also was wrong in the way I depicted. Whomever says "All men are created Equal" and then legislates that all men are NOT equal is contradicting oneself and is in part *the part where they wrote it into law,* wholly wrong.

As I said:
The charge of "hypocrite" does nothing to diminish the soundness of someone's argument
:shrug:

 

[Gadawg73]

The Founders were radicals of their time.
Conservatives they were not.

 

[Liability]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Wow. You are the first person to EVER -- in the history of our land -- notice that sad and ironic state of affairs.

Newsflash: it was a different day and age. The Founders and Framers were pretty much on the THE cutting edge. But, even so, they were still just human beings. They made mistakes. They engaged in hypocrisy.

The fact that many of them were flawed (not all of them did own slaves, by the way) doesn't change one iota the value of what they said, did, accomplished and stood for.

It is sad


and ironic

No. It WAS sad. And it was ironic.

But it was still the product of its time.

And if folks like Thomas Jefferson failed to live it to the same extent that they preached it, that does not lessen the fact that they are largely responsible for the very thought process by which the "institution" of slavery was eventually eradicated. Like we do today, they lived in an imperfect world. They made it vastly better DESPITE their faults.

 

[Liability]

The Founders were radicals of their time.
Conservatives they were not.

No shit.

But measured by the definition we use today, the only ones they could identify with today are conservatives.

For, you see, they did not do all the things they did, including putting their lives on the line and crafting our very form of government just to generate a document that is paid only lip service.

The fundamental notion of limited government is the notion embraced by today's conservatives; it is not embraced at all by the damn liberals of today. In fact, liberals of today are fucking Statists and the Founders and the Framers would reject the political philosophy of today's "liberals" for that reason and for many others.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

So? You don't fight with the intention of the world being perfect when you finish, because it never will be. You fight so that it will be closer to perfect, and so that succeeding generations can then fight their own fights to move it even closer.

Had our Founding Fathers not risked their lives for the freedom and liberty they did, it would never have been possible for the descendants of their slaves to have acquired their own freedom and liberty. Instead of excoriating them with your 21st century hindsight, ask yourself if YOU would have had the vision and the courage to see and work for the better world they did if YOU had been a person of that time.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A group of men who risked their lives for the principles of freedom and liberty....yet owned slaves.

Some of them owned slaves.
Yeah. So?

So they were hypocrites of the highest order.

No, they weren't. They were pragmatists who understood the world and the society they lived in a shitload better than the vast majority of people understand their own today. You fight the battle you can win today, claim the territory you can today, so that tomorrow you can claim the NEXT hill. You don't gamble the entire war on trying to take everything all at once.

Would you have preferred that they try to utterly dismantle slavery in the midst of trying to forge a new country and government, knowing perfectly well that the result would be to lose it all?

 

[GStarz]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

I agree! That's why I believe the terms have been reversed by the media! "liberal" (Ha!) Democrats are old-fashioned (ponytails, high taxes that go back 3000 years, still think socialism is cool) while the GOP and Tea Party really are the progressives ( a new thought - freedom!, low taxes, know the future cannot survive socialism.)

Yes, our founding fathers were the same way: breaking the bonds of high taxes, government tyranny and religious suppression! Our founding fathers were true progressives - just like the tea party.

Liberals will go crazy at the notion after decades of building false pop-culture perceptions, but tough shit. facts are facts.

 

[Charles_Main]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

I agree! that's why I believe the terms have been reversed by the media! Democrats are old-fashioned (ponytails, high taxes that go back 3000 years, still think socialism is cool) while the GOP and Tea Party really are the progressives ( a new thought - freedom!, low taxes, know the future cannot survive socialism.)

Yes, our founding fathers were the same way: breaking the bonds of high taxes and government tyranny and religious suppression! Our founding fathers were true progressives - just like the tea party.

Liberals will go crazy at the notion after decades of building false pop-culture perceptions but tough shit. facts are facts.

As I said before. If you had to pick a political Group from today, that the founders were most like. I would say it is the Libertarians. Who are over course closer to conservatives than Modern Day Liberals.

The Most Basic Theme the founders put forth was. Limit government and keep them out of our Private lives. Yep sounds Libertarian to me.

 

[GStarz]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

I agree! that's why I believe the terms have been reversed by the media! Democrats are old-fashioned (ponytails, high taxes that go back 3000 years, still think socialism is cool) while the GOP and Tea Party really are the progressives ( a new thought - freedom!, low taxes, know the future cannot survive socialism.)

Yes, our founding fathers were the same way: breaking the bonds of high taxes and government tyranny and religious suppression! Our founding fathers were true progressives - just like the tea party.

Liberals will go crazy at the notion after decades of building false pop-culture perceptions but tough shit. facts are facts.

As I said before. If you had to pick a political Group from today, that the founders were most like. I would say it is the Libertarians. Who are over course closer to conservatives than Modern Day Liberals.

The Most Basic Theme the founders put forth was. Limit government and keep them out of our Private lives. Yep sounds Libertarian to me.

Great point. the tea party and libertarians are extremely close. we disagree on a few points, and a couple are significant, but overall there is a great deal of kinship between them. I think both groups dislike the old world politics of the GOP but really despise the big government monsters who are the liberal democrats. the libertarians I know are 100% like that anyway. great point.