On "Counter-Conservatism"

Daktoria

Senior Member
Mar 8, 2013
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I know this hasn't garnished as much attention as the Tea Party Movement, but it's an ideological movement that's been taking place, and it's probably been taking place even before the TPM got established but just never had any reliable foundation to be built upon. The biggest advocate I know of this as well is David Mamet who talks about the gist of what I'm saying in The Secret Knowledge and The Wicked Son: Anti-Semitism, Self-hatred, and the Jews. He's a former liberal who isn't anymore... because he sees how liberalism's been subverted by conservatives in liberal clothing.

In turn, he advocates this new counter-conservatism to counter this subversion.

The gist of it is conservatism has this reputation of being an ideology about anti-intellectualism that's stuck in its ways. It's about ruggedly individualist work ethic where people conform to norms in order to be practical. They engage in anti-elitist, folk community common sense as an excuse to tolerate abuse, negligence, and blaming of victims to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That way, conservatives can get away with being fatalist in terms of might makes right power politics where those born into strength can use their strength to manipulate those born outside of it.

Many people are liberals in contrast because they believe in creative thinking, problem solving, idealism, vision, imagination, and rational thought. They believe in universal human rights where people get treated with respect based on who they are as individuals on the inside that counts. They aren't these imposing pragmatists, and they insist on regulatory due process in order to prevent bad things from happening in society...

...so what happened?

What happened is these anti-intellectual conservatives exploited some loopholes in the liberal ideology that deny objective reason. For example, conservative anti-elitism subverted liberal egalitarianism. Conservative folk community common sense subverted liberal moral relativism and social democracy. Conservative rugged individualism that blames the victim subverted liberal denial of retributive justice and personal responsibility. Conservative conformity to norms subverted liberal governmental authority.

In fact, we even see this in different branches of liberalism today. For example, consider third and fourth wave feminism (AKA post-9/11 feminism that accuses those who expect women to be responsible for their actions of being Islamofascists while stereotyping all branches of Abrahamic religion) that endorse women acting out emotions without being held responsible for their actions. Consider multiculturalism which endorses learning through experience instead of thinking before one acts from the school of hard knocks. Consider militant environmentalism which is comparable to conservative conservationism, especially in terms of Social Darwinism. In fact, we even see socially conservative attitudes behind the scenes when it comes to rectifying historical injustices in general. Feminism, multiculturalism, and environmentalism used to care about who people were as individuals on the inside that counts, but today, they engage in subversive stereotyping by refusing to analyze how each individual of a demographic is not necessarily privileged.

In fact, it's not just liberalism which has been subverted, but socialism as well. Socialists will advocate labor theory of value which is comparable to conservative rugged individualism. They'll advocate "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" which is comparable to the conservative adage, "If you see something you can do that can be done, then you should do it." Socialists will advocate historical materialism in denying free will which is comparable to the conservative application of work ethic to conform to norms which advocates might makes right fatalism.

The solution to this subversion is the counter-conservatism where those liberals who believed in creative thinking and universal human rights engage the conservative notions of heritage, narrative, story, custom, culture, and tradition. They focus on how conservatives are supposed to remember how grace comes before law. That way, conservatives don't become obsessed with manipulating enforcement for their own self-interests a la legalism. Instead, conservatives remember the values of reliable rules of engagement, discourse ethics, due process, due diligence, procedural justice, and duty of care.
 
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Also, with regards to the Tea Party Movement, many of these people are the problem. For example, many of them advocate the minimization of government as the most efficient way to rule society, but in reality, what they want the right to do is deregulate things in order to behave abusively and not be held responsible for their actions. Indeed, they are fiscally conservative yet socially liberal. They insist on rugged individualism where victims pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and they don't care about retributive justice or personal responsibility.
 
Also, with regards to the Tea Party Movement, many of these people are the problem. For example, many of them advocate the minimization of government as the most efficient way to rule society, but in reality, what they want the right to do is deregulate things in order to behave abusively and not be held responsible for their actions. Indeed, they are fiscally conservative yet socially liberal. They insist on rugged individualism where victims pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and they don't care about retributive justice or personal responsibility.

"If you don't have insurance, die" isn't socially liberal
 
Sorry. I'm talking about the foundation of ideological due process which is used to justify other positions in society.

For example, if you deny personal responsibility and retributive justice as social liberals do, then those who apply themselves to become successful yet have their wealth stolen from them wouldn't necessarily be able to independently afford health insurance.
 
Sorry. I'm talking about the foundation of ideological due process which is used to justify other positions in society.

For example, if you deny personal responsibility and retributive justice as social liberals do, then those who apply themselves to become successful yet have their wealth stolen from them wouldn't necessarily be able to independently afford health insurance.
This fails as a straw man fallacy.

There is no such thing as a 'social liberal,' and no 'liberal' denies personal responsibility or retributive justice.

Moreover, no one has his wealth 'stolen from him,' the notion is ignorant idiocy.
 
The gist of it is conservatism has this reputation of being an ideology about anti-intellectualism that's stuck in its ways. It's about ruggedly individualist work ethic where people conform to norms in order to be practical. They engage in anti-elitist, folk community common sense as an excuse to tolerate abuse, negligence, and blaming of victims to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That way, conservatives can get away with being fatalist in terms of might makes right power politics where those born into strength can use their strength to manipulate those born outside of it.

This is a former liberal's perspective, informed by his long association with liberals.

Many people are liberals in contrast because they believe in creative thinking, problem solving, idealism, vision, imagination, and rational thought. They believe in universal human rights where people get treated with respect based on who they are as individuals on the inside that counts. They aren't these imposing pragmatists, and they insist on regulatory due process in order to prevent bad things from happening in society...

And this is a liberal vision of how they like to see themselves. It's an EXPRESSED viewpoint that is widely divergent from a REVEALED viewpoint. Liberals don't actually ACT this way. Rational thought and liberalism mix together like oil and water. Treating people as individuals and yet the entire political universe of liberals revolves around group identity - blacks, women, homosexuals, Hispanics, transsexuals.

I'll give them idealism, but coming from the sciences, the most creative thinkers I interacted with rejected liberalism, they were conservatives, not religious conservatives mind you, but principled conservatives. Same with problem solvers. Engineers tend to be conservatives and their entire work life revolves around solving problems.

...so what happened?

What happened is these anti-intellectual conservatives exploited some loopholes in the liberal ideology that deny objective reason.

For a bunch of yokels those anti-intellectual conservatives sure out-smarted the brainiac liberals.

For example, conservative anti-elitism subverted liberal egalitarianism. Conservative folk community common sense subverted liberal moral relativism and social democracy. Conservative rugged individualism that blames the victim subverted liberal denial of retributive justice and personal responsibility. Conservative conformity to norms subverted liberal governmental authority.

This argument by assertion technique of yours is pretty marvelous to behold.

In fact, it's not just liberalism which has been subverted, but socialism as well. Socialists will advocate labor theory of value which is comparable to conservative rugged individualism. They'll advocate "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" which is comparable to the conservative adage, "If you see something you can do that can be done, then you should do it."

Do you write on the fly? I sure hope so because that would be a good excuse for not thinking about what you're writing because those two maxims are not comparable. Just because you write something down doesn't make it true.

Socialists will advocate historical materialism in denying free will which is comparable to the conservative application of work ethic to conform to norms which advocates might makes right fatalism.

I'm getting the impression that you don't know the first thing about conservatism.

The solution to this subversion is the counter-conservatism where those liberals who believed in creative thinking and universal human rights engage the conservative notions of heritage, narrative, story, custom, culture, and tradition. They focus on how conservatives are supposed to remember how grace comes before law. That way, conservatives don't become obsessed with manipulating enforcement for their own self-interests a la legalism.

Legalism. Yes, it's been conservatives who've been fighting cultural battles through co-opting judges to ram conservative cultural positions down the throats of an unreceptive public.
 
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Also, with regards to the Tea Party Movement, many of these people are the problem. For example, many of them advocate the minimization of government as the most efficient way to rule society

Was society run more efficiently back int he 1950s or at present?

but in reality, what they want the right to do is deregulate things in order to behave abusively and not be held responsible for their actions.

How do you know this? Is this akin to the "racist dog-whistles" that liberals are always claiming that conservatives deploy yet which no conservatives can hear and the signals are always picked up by liberals, who you know, shouldn't actually be the ones hearing the secret racist dog whistles for that would make the dog whistles not be dog whistles.
 
Sorry. I'm talking about the foundation of ideological due process which is used to justify other positions in society.

For example, if you deny personal responsibility and retributive justice as social liberals do, then those who apply themselves to become successful yet have their wealth stolen from them wouldn't necessarily be able to independently afford health insurance.
This fails as a straw man fallacy.

There is no such thing as a 'social liberal,' and no 'liberal' denies personal responsibility or retributive justice.

Moreover, no one has his wealth 'stolen from him,' the notion is ignorant idiocy.

...so in other words, you're a pragmatist who doesn't believe in the autonomy of consciousness. Instead, you believe in people having the right to impose their worldview on how to transform the present into the future if they happen to be popular enough?

You sound like a conservative who believes in folk community common sense, yet portrays yourself as a communist who doesn't believe in property rights.
 
The gist of it is conservatism has this reputation of being an ideology about anti-intellectualism that's stuck in its ways. It's about ruggedly individualist work ethic where people conform to norms in order to be practical. They engage in anti-elitist, folk community common sense as an excuse to tolerate abuse, negligence, and blaming of victims to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That way, conservatives can get away with being fatalist in terms of might makes right power politics where those born into strength can use their strength to manipulate those born outside of it.

This is a former liberal's perspective, informed by his long association with liberals.

Many people are liberals in contrast because they believe in creative thinking, problem solving, idealism, vision, imagination, and rational thought. They believe in universal human rights where people get treated with respect based on who they are as individuals on the inside that counts. They aren't these imposing pragmatists, and they insist on regulatory due process in order to prevent bad things from happening in society...

And this is a liberal vision of how they like to see themselves. It's an EXPRESSED viewpoint that is widely divergent from a REVEALED viewpoint. Liberals don't actually ACT this way. Rational thought and liberalism mix together like oil and water. Treating people as individuals and yet the entire political universe of liberals revolves around group identity - blacks, women, homosexuals, Hispanics, transsexuals.

I'll give them idealism, but coming from the sciences, the most creative thinkers I interacted with rejected liberalism, they were conservatives, not religious conservatives mind you, but principled conservatives. Same with problem solvers. Engineers tend to be conservatives and their entire work life revolves around solving problems.

...so what happened?

What happened is these anti-intellectual conservatives exploited some loopholes in the liberal ideology that deny objective reason.

For a bunch of yokels those anti-intellectual conservatives sure out-smarted the brainiac liberals.

For example, conservative anti-elitism subverted liberal egalitarianism. Conservative folk community common sense subverted liberal moral relativism and social democracy. Conservative rugged individualism that blames the victim subverted liberal denial of retributive justice and personal responsibility. Conservative conformity to norms subverted liberal governmental authority.

This argument by assertion technique of yours is pretty marvelous to behold.

In fact, it's not just liberalism which has been subverted, but socialism as well. Socialists will advocate labor theory of value which is comparable to conservative rugged individualism. They'll advocate "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" which is comparable to the conservative adage, "If you see something you can do that can be done, then you should do it."

Do you write on the fly? I sure hope so because that would be a good excuse for not thinking about what you're writing because those two maxims are not comparable. Just because you write something down doesn't make it true.

Socialists will advocate historical materialism in denying free will which is comparable to the conservative application of work ethic to conform to norms which advocates might makes right fatalism.

I'm getting the impression that you don't know the first thing about conservatism.

The solution to this subversion is the counter-conservatism where those liberals who believed in creative thinking and universal human rights engage the conservative notions of heritage, narrative, story, custom, culture, and tradition. They focus on how conservatives are supposed to remember how grace comes before law. That way, conservatives don't become obsessed with manipulating enforcement for their own self-interests a la legalism.

Legalism. Yes, it's been conservatives who've been fighting cultural battles through co-opting judges to ram conservative cultural positions down the throats of an unreceptive public.

The point is there are different types of liberals and conservatives. You're treating them as if they're all one and the same.
 
Also, with regards to the Tea Party Movement, many of these people are the problem. For example, many of them advocate the minimization of government as the most efficient way to rule society

Was society run more efficiently back int he 1950s or at present?

but in reality, what they want the right to do is deregulate things in order to behave abusively and not be held responsible for their actions.

How do you know this? Is this akin to the "racist dog-whistles" that liberals are always claiming that conservatives deploy yet which no conservatives can hear and the signals are always picked up by liberals, who you know, shouldn't actually be the ones hearing the secret racist dog whistles for that would make the dog whistles not be dog whistles.

No. It just comes from understanding how so many conservatives insist on hiding behind plausible deniability while insisting on the performance of good works. Many conservatives confuse facts with evidence, so in turn, they believe in having the right to be corrupt authorities or criminals who deserve to get away with it.

Many liberals do the same thing. The point of counter-conservatism is to dissociate from brain-dead liberals and subversively nasty conservatives.
 

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