Obama: US "Not a Christian Nation"

[Mr. President]

We were established on Biblical Principals

Actually, it was established on philosophical principles that were established during the Enlightenment...which specifically rejected Church as government. You might want to look at the writings of John Locke which had far more influence than the Bible.

Or you could realize that I didn't say that we were a Government based on Church. I said on Christian/Biblical Principals. The whole though shall not's, love thy neighbor and all that good stuff. Your problem is you become so seperation of church and state prioritized that you exclude things that are good for a nation because they can be connected to a religion. This narrowminded scope is just as bad as bible thumping extremists who believe t shirts will send you to hell.

 

[elvis]

We were established on Biblical Principals

Actually, it was established on philosophical principles that were established during the Enlightenment...which specifically rejected Church as government. You might want to look at the writings of John Locke which had far more influence than the Bible.

Or you could realize that I didn't say that we were a Government based on Church. I said on Christian/Biblical Principals. The whole though shall not's, love thy neighbor and all that good stuff. Your problem is you become so seperation of church and state prioritized that you exclude things that are good for a nation because they can be connected to a religion. This narrowminded scope is just as bad as bible thumping extremists who believe t shirts will send you to hell.

where in the constitution/law does it say Thou shalt not covet, commit adultery, lie,
or that we should love our neighbor?

 

[jillian]

Jefferson didn't buy the miracle stuff, but rightfully thought Jesus had a lot of the right ideas.

bummer that so many Christians don't pay his words any mind.

Christians don't pay Jesus's words any mind, unfortunately.

None? I'd hope some do. He said a lot of good things. Amazingly, none of it had anything to do with fire and brimstone... or homosexuality. He said an awful lot about helping the poor, though.

 

[del]

Thanks. So once, and it is nature's God. No mention of Christianity.

i believe it's more than once, but no matter.

nope, no mention of christianity, zoroastrianism, buddhism, judaism, scientology or catholicism. i checked very closely to make sure. nor is there any mention of anglicanism, congregationalism, lutheranism, episcopalian beliefs, seventh day adventists, daoists, hindus, islam, mormons, shintoism, animism, druidic faith traditions, ba'haism or russian or greek orthodoxy. no coptics, either.


just god.

 

[KittenKoder]

We worship Mammon.

The Baby Jesus just gets a lot of lip service, but everyone on the inside knows that's strictly propaganda to beguile the terminally stupid.

Bah! No, it's Cthulhu! I'm cereal!

 

[elvis]

Jefferson didn't buy the miracle stuff, but rightfully thought Jesus had a lot of the right ideas.

bummer that so many Christians don't pay his words any mind.

Christians don't pay Jesus's words any mind, unfortunately.

None? I'd hope some do. He said a lot of good things. Amazingly, none of it had anything to do with fire and brimstone... or homosexuality. He said an awful lot about helping the poor, though.

well, not none. I should have said, many christians do not.

 

[KittenKoder]

Here's the thing, I do not believe the founding fathers were specifically anti-christian, many of them shared the beliefs, however at that time period in our country little to nothing was known of other organized religions, thus they just used the wrong word for lack of understanding. What they did hate, and what they tried to ensure, was that there was never a "dominant" religion within the government due to the vile acts done by other governments in the name of such.

As for the word "god" appearing in so many places, most of those were added long after we were established, I see too many people denying this fact in spite of the evidence. The Pledge of Allegiance didn't originally have it and our money was not federally backed when it was first printed, and no one wanted the government to restrict freedom of speech so when it came to decide on a national currency they just chose the the bank that had the largest holdings, which just happened to have the word on their notes. However, even after that, ALL religions have some "god" or gods, just because the word is present does not mean it is exclusively christian. Most think of their god as just a "higher power" and make no assumptions to know what that is or what it's wishes are. The simple fact, our country was based on freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, nothing more, nothing less. This divisiveness being created by those who want to wrongly say we were founded on any religious concepts has been hurting us as a country for too long, and it's anti-American to do so. Learn history as it is, objectively, understand it, and then move on because even if it disagrees or agrees with you, it's history. The only thing we can do with history is learn from the mistakes and vow to never repeat them (like the Crusades, Holocaust, terrorism, genocide, etc.)

 

[Mr. President]

where in the constitution/law does it say Thou shalt not covet, commit adultery, lie,
or that we should love our neighbor?

Adultery is grounds for a divorce which is the breaking of a legal contract.
Covet, the government isn't really concerned about that.
Love thy neighbor. You dont have to love them but you have to tolerate them to the extent you do not infringe on their constitutional rights.

 

[Shogun]

where in the constitution/law does it say Thou shalt not covet, commit adultery, lie,
or that we should love our neighbor?

Adultery is grounds for a divorce which is the breaking of a legal contract.
Covet, the government isn't really concerned about that.
Love thy neighbor. You dont have to love them but you have to tolerate them to the extent you do not infringe on their constitutional rights.

but adultery isn't a criminal action as it would have to be if it correlated with stealing and murder under the ten commandments. Believe it or not, just because a society prohibits its people from killing and stealing from each other doesn't mean said culture is a product of christianity. Nether Jesus or Moses invented the concept of murder.


I LOVE this argument. you dogma junkie motherfuckers are wrong to think that America is a "christian nation". Hell, the very reason the new world was so enticing to many was because they were trying to escape the kind of pissed territory of european "[insert denomination here] cultural claim". And you people REALLY think that men who were the product of the fucking age of ENLIGHTENMENT were going to tack the jesus stamp onto this great experiment?

 

[DavidS]

That would be why God is mentioned so many times in the documents establishing this nation right? That would be why CHRISTIAN Chaplins have always opened the House and Senate with a prayer and are maintained at least by the house on a permanent bases?

That would be why almost every President has been sworn in with a BIBLE, A CHRISTIAN BIBLE.

Jefferson attended religious service every week while President in , as I recall, the House of Representatives.

You seem to be confused. So I've provided you with links:

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
Full Text of the Articles of Confederation
The Declaration of Independence - TEXT

Other than once in the Declaration of Independence, can you please show me where "God" is specifically mentioned?

Additionally, "God" is a Jewish philosophy. Jesus is a Christian philosophy. Can you please show me where Jesus is in any of those links?

Just to save you time, God is not mentioned anywhere in the US constitution (which also has the Preamble and Bill of Rights in it) or Articles of Confederation. The only time God is ever mentioned is in the Declaration of Independence, which only affects our status as Colonists from the British Empire. The DoI does not contain any rules or laws for this nation.

Now why do Conservatives believe that this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs when Islam specifically believes in Christ, specifically believes the world was created in 6 days and on the 7th day he rested, etc.? Islam just thinks it's a continuation of the other two Bibles... so in fact, it could easily be considered the "Third Testament." So why don't you say that this nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian-Islam values?

Additionally, there are several other religions and off-shoots of other religions that believe in a monotheistic version of "God."

Monotheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why can't they be included?

And a Christian Chaplin opens up services in the House some of the time, but Rabbis do other times and Imams have at other times. We have only rarely had someone in the House who does not belong to either of three faiths. While the majority of the country may be monothestic, or Judeo-Christian or whatever you want to call it, this is NOT a Christian nation. We do not have an official religion and the founding fathers made damn sure of that.

 

[Mr. President]

where in the constitution/law does it say Thou shalt not covet, commit adultery, lie,
or that we should love our neighbor?

Adultery is grounds for a divorce which is the breaking of a legal contract.
Covet, the government isn't really concerned about that.
Love thy neighbor. You dont have to love them but you have to tolerate them to the extent you do not infringe on their constitutional rights.

but adultery isn't a criminal action as it would have to be if it correlated with stealing and murder under the ten commandments. Believe it or not, just because a society prohibits its people from killing and stealing from each other doesn't mean said culture is a product of christianity. Nether Jesus or Moses invented the concept of murder.


I LOVE this argument. you dogma junkie motherfuckers are wrong to think that America is a "christian nation". Hell, the very reason the new world was so enticing to many was because they were trying to escape the kind of pissed territory of european "[insert denomination here] cultural claim". And you people REALLY think that men who were the product of the fucking age of ENLIGHTENMENT were going to tack the jesus stamp onto this great experiment?

Shogun, my brotha from anotha motha. I said based on biblical principals. The same way movies are based on real events. They took what they liked and came up with the rest. The same way they used parts of many philosophical writings and teachings. It is not the only basis for the nation but it is one. Too deny that is rather foolish.

 

[DavidS]

Obama: U.S. "Not A Christian Nation Or A Jewish Nation Or A Muslim Nation" (VIDEO)

I guess I have a problem understanding the right-wing uproar about this.

"Unbelievable!" says one conservative.

"We've always been a Judeo-Christian nation and this revisionist history is enough!"

Fortunately, this poster is incorrect. We are NOT a Judeo-Christian nation. The Founding Fathers HATED Christianity so much so that Jefferson himself wrote his own Bible.

The United States of America does not have an official religion. We are NOT a Christian nation. Why are the conservatives in an uproar about this?

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Monticello Report: Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

jefferson doesn't sound to me like he hated christianity, he just didn't accept all the dogma.
he seemed to think pretty highly of christ, though.

we'll add this to the list of things you know less than nothing about.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820


While he may have liked some of the teachings of Christ, he rejects, wholeheartedly the entire foundation that Christ was the "Son" of God given to Mary as a Virgin Birth. He rejects the laws of Christianity, he rejects the RELIGION of Christianity. Republicans like to wave the American flag around and throw it in our faces, but the very people who founded this country and our flag, would vomit at the idea of a Christian Nation.

 

[DavidS]

We were established on Biblical Principals

Yeah, right! Try finding Freedom of Religion in the Old or New Testament. In fact, the New Testament says those that don't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will go to hell for eternity. Tell me, what part of the constitution is THAT in?

 

[del]

Obama: U.S. "Not A Christian Nation Or A Jewish Nation Or A Muslim Nation" (VIDEO)

I guess I have a problem understanding the right-wing uproar about this.

"Unbelievable!" says one conservative.

"We've always been a Judeo-Christian nation and this revisionist history is enough!"

Fortunately, this poster is incorrect. We are NOT a Judeo-Christian nation. The Founding Fathers HATED Christianity so much so that Jefferson himself wrote his own Bible.

The United States of America does not have an official religion. We are NOT a Christian nation. Why are the conservatives in an uproar about this?

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Monticello Report: Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

jefferson doesn't sound to me like he hated christianity, he just didn't accept all the dogma.
he seemed to think pretty highly of christ, though.

we'll add this to the list of things you know less than nothing about.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820


While he may have liked some of the teachings of Christ, he rejects, wholeheartedly the entire foundation that Christ was the "Son" of God given to Mary as a Virgin Birth. He rejects the laws of Christianity, he rejects the RELIGION of Christianity. Republicans like to wave the American flag around and throw it in our faces, but the very people who founded this country and our flag, would vomit at the idea of a Christian Nation.

i'll ask you the same thing i asked red dawn: how do they prove jefferson hated christianity as you claimed?

hint: they don't. rejection and hate aren't the same thing.

you really are a dope.

 

[Mr. President]

We were established on Biblical Principals

Yeah, right! Try finding Freedom of Religion in the Old or New Testament. In fact, the New Testament says those that don't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will go to hell for eternity. Tell me, what part of the constitution is THAT in?

David you tried to take what I said to an extreme context that is was not meant for. Ima need you to rethink what I wrote form a practical response and then respond.

 

[Shogun]

Adultery is grounds for a divorce which is the breaking of a legal contract.
Covet, the government isn't really concerned about that.
Love thy neighbor. You dont have to love them but you have to tolerate them to the extent you do not infringe on their constitutional rights.

but adultery isn't a criminal action as it would have to be if it correlated with stealing and murder under the ten commandments. Believe it or not, just because a society prohibits its people from killing and stealing from each other doesn't mean said culture is a product of christianity. Nether Jesus or Moses invented the concept of murder.


I LOVE this argument. you dogma junkie motherfuckers are wrong to think that America is a "christian nation". Hell, the very reason the new world was so enticing to many was because they were trying to escape the kind of pissed territory of european "[insert denomination here] cultural claim". And you people REALLY think that men who were the product of the fucking age of ENLIGHTENMENT were going to tack the jesus stamp onto this great experiment?

Shogun, my brotha from anotha motha. I said based on biblical principals. The same way movies are based on real events. They took what they liked and came up with the rest. The same way they used parts of many philosophical writings and teachings. It is not the only basis for the nation but it is one. Too deny that is rather foolish.

if you want tomake that arguement then you should probably realize that the whole "based off actual events' moniker is usually nothing more than a selling point. You think the Amityville Horror happened just like that? Just because the starting credits say "based on a true story" doesn't mean that a ghost actually scared the shit out of new home owners.

And, again, christians don't have a monopoly on the concept that murder is bad. Hell, if we really want to distill the concepts to their very core then we'd have to say that the GODS OF HAMMURABI are the ones who gave us legal standards for cultural norms, yes?

I have to disagree. When the founding fathers appealed to "god" it was meant to be as generic as possible. It could mean Allah just as much as it could mean the FSM.

 

[Mr. President]

if you want tomake that arguement then you should probably realize that the whole "based off actual events' moniker is usually nothing more than a selling point. You think the Amityville Horror happened just like that? Just because the starting credits say "based on a true story" doesn't mean that a ghost actually scared the shit out of new home owners.

And, again, christians don't have a monopoly on the concept that murder is bad. Hell, if we really want to distill the concepts to their very core then we'd have to say that the GODS OF HAMMURABI are the ones who gave us legal standards for cultural norms, yes?

I have to disagree. When the founding fathers appealed to "god" it was meant to be as generic as possible. It could mean Allah just as much as it could mean the FSM.

I agree with you. Christianity in part was a selling point but to assert that it was not at least partly based on the principles found in biblical text is absurd. That and that alone is the point I am trying to make.

 

[Red Dawn]

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Monticello Report: Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

jefferson doesn't sound to me like he hated christianity, he just didn't accept all the dogma.
he seemed to think pretty highly of christ, though.

we'll add this to the list of things you know less than nothing about.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820


While he may have liked some of the teachings of Christ, he rejects, wholeheartedly the entire foundation that Christ was the "Son" of God given to Mary as a Virgin Birth. He rejects the laws of Christianity, he rejects the RELIGION of Christianity. Republicans like to wave the American flag around and throw it in our faces, but the very people who founded this country and our flag, would vomit at the idea of a Christian Nation.

i'll ask you the same thing i asked red dawn: how do they prove jefferson hated christianity as you claimed?

hint: they don't. rejection and hate aren't the same thing.

you really are a dope.

I never said Jefferson hated christianity.

He was a free-thinker, who believed in enlightenment and rationality, and he obviously believed in a higher power in the deist sense.

He was hostile to the clergy, to orthodoxy, and to the heirarchy and ignorance of organized religion.


And he didn't think this nation and its government owed an allegiance to Christianity.

 

[Red Dawn]

We were established on Biblical Principals

there's not one fucking word in the constitution about the bible, or about christianity or jesus.

It's the most secular document ever written, at least up to that time.


I always LMAO when rightys claim we are founded on the ten commandments. When's the last time you hacks even read the ten commandments? The only ones that apply to us are do not kill and do not steal. And those aren't "christian values". Those are values every human society in recorded history on the planet has shared. There's nothing uniquely "christian" about it. The rest of the ten commandments are nonsense, which don't apply to secular government or our legal system. Its a laundry list of moral or religious imperatives, which are not captured or promulgated anywhere in our system of jurisprudence. Not working on the Sabbath? We have to work 6 days a week? Don't covet your neighbor's house? Please show me where any of these rules are embodied in our laws, or our constitution.

 

[Shogun]

if you want tomake that arguement then you should probably realize that the whole "based off actual events' moniker is usually nothing more than a selling point. You think the Amityville Horror happened just like that? Just because the starting credits say "based on a true story" doesn't mean that a ghost actually scared the shit out of new home owners.

And, again, christians don't have a monopoly on the concept that murder is bad. Hell, if we really want to distill the concepts to their very core then we'd have to say that the GODS OF HAMMURABI are the ones who gave us legal standards for cultural norms, yes?

I have to disagree. When the founding fathers appealed to "god" it was meant to be as generic as possible. It could mean Allah just as much as it could mean the FSM.

I agree with you. Christianity in part was a selling point but to assert that it was not at least partly based on the principles found in biblical text is absurd. That and that alone is the point I am trying to make.

ok, check it out... in the bible jesus fed the masses with Fishes and Loaves. Now, we know that fishes and loves sustain a human being as food and that Jesus used this specific cuisine to convey a message and miracle. RIGHT?

Would you go on the record saying that Fishes and Loaves are a CHRISTIAN FOOD? Does it phase you to ponder that other cultures not related to christianity ate FISH?


I ask because, again, the concept that murder is bad is not anideal that is the sole invention of christianity via jews. So, I have to say that it's a little disingenuous to insist that these same concepts are "christian" in nature. Even Greek polytheism loving non-christians had laws against murder. I guess I'm just not buying the purposeful disregard for the universal nature of laws against criminal behaviour like murder. The world didn't wake up one day after jesus died and go, "well shit.. you know what we probably shoudn't do" Murderr each other. I'm sure glad that jew from nazereth was born!"


know what I mean?