Obama: US "Not a Christian Nation"

[tathagata]

Shogun, my brotha from anotha motha. I said based on biblical principals. The same way movies are based on real events. They took what they liked and came up with the rest. The same way they used parts of many philosophical writings and teachings. It is not the only basis for the nation but it is one. Too deny that is rather foolish.

???? As I remember the Bible promotes Monarchy, not Democracy. Did the Biblical God or Jesus gain power from some kind of election?

You need some ginko biloba for that memory, friend. The Bible doesn't promote any sort of political structure, because God is only concerned with such things insofar as they affect the states of people's souls.

And believe it or not, Obama is not God, nor is he comparable to God, so he doesn't get to skip the election process.

Actually, the United States of America is founded in direct opposition to biblical principles. Nowhere in the Bible is the power to govern drawn from the governed. Rather it is superimposed from above without consent of the governed, and without any rights accruing to them whatsoever.

Nowhere in the Bible does it lay out any sort of political structure whatsoever, Mensa Boy. God isn't a President or Prime Minister. He's God, not a political leader.

Millions of sperm, and THIS is the one that gets through.

Ho ho, and arrogant too? - The sign of true ignorance.

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Anyone familiar with the Bible knows that it claims God sets up all rulers. And everyone he sets up (including Jesus) to rule as King. Not one of them is a president.

 

[del]

I guess I have a problem understanding the right-wing uproar about this.

"Unbelievable!" says one conservative.

"We've always been a Judeo-Christian nation and this revisionist history is enough!"

Fortunately, this poster is incorrect. We are NOT a Judeo-Christian nation. The Founding Fathers HATED Christianity so much so that Jefferson himself wrote his own Bible.

The United States of America does not have an official religion. We are NOT a Christian nation. Why are the conservatives in an uproar about this?

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Monticello Report: Jefferson's Religious Beliefs[/url]

jefferson doesn't sound to me like he hated christianity, he just didn't accept all the dogma.
he seemed to think pretty highly of christ, though.

we'll add this to the list of things you know less than nothing about.

Jefferson thought pretty highly of Jesus. There is not much evidence he thought anything specifically of Christ. Christ is an epithet applied to Jesus meaning "the chosen one" which was intended to place Jesus in line with the sacrificed/resurrected man/gods of the pre-christian traditions contemporaneous with early Christianity. Jefferson clearly appreciated Jesus' teachings, but didn't buy into the "christ" think at all.

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1810. ME 12:345

You might want to reconsider your "less than nothing" comment. If you look closely you will see yourself reflected in it.

so you're the new board nitpicker, huh? was it unclear to you that i was referring to jesus?
was it unclear to you that "he didn't accept all the dogma" means he didn't accept all the dogma, including the divinity of jesus, as mentioned in the quote i posted?
should i type slower and give you a chance to keep up?

 

[Cecilie1200]

???? As I remember the Bible promotes Monarchy, not Democracy. Did the Biblical God or Jesus gain power from some kind of election?

You need some ginko biloba for that memory, friend. The Bible doesn't promote any sort of political structure, because God is only concerned with such things insofar as they affect the states of people's souls.

And believe it or not, Obama is not God, nor is he comparable to God, so he doesn't get to skip the election process.

Actually, the United States of America is founded in direct opposition to biblical principles. Nowhere in the Bible is the power to govern drawn from the governed. Rather it is superimposed from above without consent of the governed, and without any rights accruing to them whatsoever.

Nowhere in the Bible does it lay out any sort of political structure whatsoever, Mensa Boy. God isn't a President or Prime Minister. He's God, not a political leader.

Millions of sperm, and THIS is the one that gets through.

Ho ho, and arrogant too? - The sign of true ignorance.

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Anyone familiar with the Bible knows that it claims God sets up all rulers. And everyone he sets up (including Jesus) to rule as King. Not one of them is a president.

There's nothing arrogant about pointing out a simple fact, Santa Claus, so save your jelly-belly laughs.

Moses was appointed to lead his people on a journey. That's not exactly writing a Constitution and setting up a government. Ever gone on a nature hike? SOMEONE has to be in charge. You will notice, however, that aside from appointing Moses as His spokesperson, God's organizational edicts tended to the religious realm, priests and such. You will ALSO notice that all of this was provisional to the Israelites at this time, not universal to all societies throughout eternity. Nowhere does God say, "And everyone shall do it this way forever."

While I recall the Bible saying that rulers rule by God's grace - which they do, since He technically has the ability to smite them - that ALSO isn't the same as the Bible laying down any guidelines for political structure. Given how explicit the Bible's instructions are for setting up the heirarchy of a church and the structure of a marriage and things like building temples, don't you think He could as easily have said so if He had a preference for a political system? But He didn't.

So if you want to use the phrase "true ignorance" to ME, bubba, you'd best be coughing up those specific quotes where God says, "This is the way a government should be constructed." Otherwise, you can shove YOUR arrogance where the sun don't shine.

 

[tathagata]

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Monticello Report: Jefferson's Religious Beliefs[/url]

jefferson doesn't sound to me like he hated christianity, he just didn't accept all the dogma.
he seemed to think pretty highly of christ, though.

we'll add this to the list of things you know less than nothing about.

Jefferson thought pretty highly of Jesus. There is not much evidence he thought anything specifically of Christ. Christ is an epithet applied to Jesus meaning "the chosen one" which was intended to place Jesus in line with the sacrificed/resurrected man/gods of the pre-christian traditions contemporaneous with early Christianity. Jefferson clearly appreciated Jesus' teachings, but didn't buy into the "christ" think at all.

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1810. ME 12:345

You might want to reconsider your "less than nothing" comment. If you look closely you will see yourself reflected in it.

so you're the new board nitpicker, huh? was it unclear to you that i was referring to jesus?
was it unclear to you that "he didn't accept all the dogma" means he didn't accept all the dogma, including the divinity of jesus, as mentioned in the quote i posted?
should i type slower and give you a chance to keep up?

Your insults show the paucity of your intellect. All that was clear to me is that you don't know the difference between Jesus and Christ. Jefferson knew that difference.

But enough - back to the mud with you. Consider yourself dismantled and discarded.

 

[del]

Jefferson thought pretty highly of Jesus. There is not much evidence he thought anything specifically of Christ. Christ is an epithet applied to Jesus meaning "the chosen one" which was intended to place Jesus in line with the sacrificed/resurrected man/gods of the pre-christian traditions contemporaneous with early Christianity. Jefferson clearly appreciated Jesus' teachings, but didn't buy into the "christ" think at all.

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1810. ME 12:345

You might want to reconsider your "less than nothing" comment. If you look closely you will see yourself reflected in it.

so you're the new board nitpicker, huh? was it unclear to you that i was referring to jesus?
was it unclear to you that "he didn't accept all the dogma" means he didn't accept all the dogma, including the divinity of jesus, as mentioned in the quote i posted?
should i type slower and give you a chance to keep up?

Your insults show the paucity of your intellect. All that was clear to me is that you don't know the difference between Jesus and Christ. Jefferson knew that difference.

But enough - back to the mud with you. Consider yourself dismantled and discarded.

oh, i'll get right on it.



keep swinging, luv.

 

[tathagata]

So if you want to use the phrase "true ignorance" to ME, bubba, you'd best be coughing up those specific quotes where God says, "This is the way a government should be constructed." Otherwise, you can shove YOUR arrogance where the sun don't shine.
=============
HO HO!!! Touchy aren't we in our dotage?

Do your own homework bumblebuns. You can start with the epistles of Paul or you can just go to any online biblical reference and type in your favorite search string. I can't post links yet, and I don't suffer fools lightly. Others may suffer you - let them enjoy slumming with you. THE END.

 

[WillowTree]

Did someone drain the swamp? where did all these little worms come from doyathink?

 

[Cecilie1200]

So if you want to use the phrase "true ignorance" to ME, bubba, you'd best be coughing up those specific quotes where God says, "This is the way a government should be constructed." Otherwise, you can shove YOUR arrogance where the sun don't shine.
=============
HO HO!!! Touchy aren't we in our dotage?

Do your own homework bumblebuns. You can start with the epistles of Paul or you can just go to any online biblical reference and type in your favorite search string. I can't post links yet, and I don't suffer fools lightly. Others may suffer you - let them enjoy slumming with you. THE END.

You're right. "I make a statement and it's YOUR homework to verify it for me" IS definitely the end for you, Mensa Boy. Thanks for designating yourself as an intellectual lightweight so quickly, so that none of us waste any undue time mistaking you for a real debater.

I don't suffer fools at all. FLUSH!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Did someone drain the swamp? where did all these little worms come from doyathink?

Maybe someone told them we were cashing welfare checks here. No, that can't be it. They don't send out checks any more. Maybe they thought this was their family reunion and came to troll for chicks?

 

[Ocean56]

Obama: U.S. "Not A Christian Nation Or A Jewish Nation Or A Muslim Nation" (VIDEO)

I guess I have a problem understanding the right-wing uproar about this.

"Unbelievable!" says one conservative.

"We've always been a Judeo-Christian nation and this revisionist history is enough!"

Fortunately, this poster is incorrect. We are NOT a Judeo-Christian nation. The Founding Fathers HATED Christianity so much so that Jefferson himself wrote his own Bible.

The United States of America does not have an official religion. We are NOT a Christian nation. Why are the conservatives in an uproar about this?

That's an easy one, I think. Because the religious conservatives have always hated the first words of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights; "Congress shall make NO law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

If some of these religionist super kooks had THEIR way, one branch or another of the "christian" faith would be dominant in the U.S. Which is exactly what they want. They lost the battle to impose religion when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written and ratified, and they've been yapping about that loss ever since.

 

[krotchdog]

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." George Washington

" Let...statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by...educating their little boys and girls...and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Benjamin Franklin

"Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, ORIGINAL CHIEF-JUSTICE U.S. SUPREME COURT

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." John Qunicy Adams

“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798 John Adams

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech Benjamin Franklin

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness............

 

[Father Time]

You got sources for any of those quotes?

 

[krotchdog]

Father Time, yep. you got reason to believe those quotes are made up.

The Declaration of Independence is the source for the quoute from the Declaration of Independence, you can check that one and if its false you can suspect the rest.

 

[KittenKoder]

I have two concerns about this issue that bother me:

1. Why is it so important that this nation has a specific religious leaning when it's suppose to be one that does not for a pretty good reason?

2. If if it was not true why is it such a concern that Obama (who isn't the best president we could have had anyway) said this to anyone? Do people really think this will change how other countries view us?

 

[Maple]

Read the constitution and the statements of all of our founders, you will find that this country is a judeo-christian nation, it always has been and hopefully it will always be. I am surprised at such an inaccurate statement by the President of the United States. I think that he needs to do some homework.

 

[Father Time]

Read the constitution and the statements of all of our founders, you will find that this country is a judeo-christian nation, it always has been and hopefully it will always be. I am surprised at such an inaccurate statement by the President of the United States. I think that he needs to do some homework.

The constitution doesn't mention God Jesus or Christianity Once, in the entire document.

And we've been throwing around statements most of this thread.

 

[Father Time]

Father Time, yep. you got reason to believe those quotes are made up.

The Declaration of Independence is the source for the quoute from the Declaration of Independence, you can check that one and if its false you can suspect the rest.

Didn't see the Declaration quote but I suspect the rest anyway. Franklin for instance was a deist later in life not a Christian.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Father Time, yep. you got reason to believe those quotes are made up.

The Declaration of Independence is the source for the quoute from the Declaration of Independence, you can check that one and if its false you can suspect the rest.

Didn't see the Declaration quote but I suspect the rest anyway. Franklin for instance was a deist later in life not a Christian.

Doesn't matter. He greatly respected Christianity his entire life, despite being a Deist (the only ACTUAL Deist among the Founding Fathers, whatever liberal revisionist history wants to believe). Franklin was known to attend services of many different denominations and to contribute money to them, and to call for public prayer. He was a great admirer of Charles Whitefield, an evangelist of the Great Awakening who preached on the sinful nature of man and the need for redemption.

 

[Father Time]

He mentions Whitefield in his autobiography but he doesn't say much about what he thinks of his sermons, it's mostly on his ability to draw a crowd.

In any case I still would like some sources for the quotes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

He mentions Whitefield in his autobiography but he doesn't say much about what he thinks of his sermons, it's mostly on his ability to draw a crowd.

First of all, he went to hear his sermons, which says quite a bit right there. Second, he says in his autobiography that he was persuaded on attendance to give the guy money, and not based on his showmanship. Nice try, though.