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their hate of Obama is becoming pathalogical
"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....
can you defend that position? in what way would GM have recovered sooner had they simply filed for bankruptcy rather than receive government assistance?If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.
I sort of see your point.
We paid more than the cap value for the stocks.
The time to have purchased the company was after it went belly up, and the lenders to GM and the bond holders lost everything.
We'd (meaning the US taxpayers) would have gotten the company for a song.
But why did the unions get to benefit from that at the taxpayer expense? You say they saved the bond holders from complete loss, so they should be happy. But, that doesn't explain how the union comes out ahead at the end of the deal at the bond holders expense, does it? They took the risks, not the union.
It would help if you two knew what you were talking about.
The givebacks brought costs more in line with Asian automakers that have U.S. plants. GM now pays roughly $58 per hour -- $29 in wages and the rest in benefits and other costs, according to the Center for Automotive Research. For Toyota, that figure is $56. Before the concessions, GM's costs were about $70 per hour.
Although GM, Chrysler and Ford won't go back to the old wages and benefits, negotiations are under way for other rewards, such as profit-sharing. Companies prefer bonuses to raises because they come only if a company makes money or meets goals.
Gov't bailout turns tables for auto union
But things got more complex when the government bailed out General Motors and Chrysler two years ago in a deal that left the union with big chunks of stock in both companies.
At the end of March 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama declined to provide financial aid to General Motors, and requested that General Motors produce credible plans, saying that the company's proposals had avoided tough decisions, and that Chapter 11 bankruptcy appeared the most promising way to reduce its debts, by allowing the courts to compel bondholders and trade unions into settlements. Chapter 11 filing was necessitated largely by inability of former GM entity to support its pension liabilities and also to form commercial alliances with other automakers that could have aided cost reductions in existing business model. On June 8, 2009, General Motors filed for reorganization under the provisions of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, and as a direct result investments of all former common stockholders were lost completely, (Reorganized GMGMQ Corporate statement of June 10, 2009; "GM management strongly believes that any recovery for the common stockholders in the chapter 11 bankruptcy process is highly unlikely, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied." Prior to chapter 11, the former GM stock hit a high of $93.63 on April 28, 2000.). On July 10, 2009, with financing partially provided by the US Government, General Motors emerged from reorganization. GM was re-listed on the NYSE on November 18, 2010, setting the record for the largest IPO in US history with a value of $20.1 billion.[66] Before the IPO, the U.S. government owned a 27% stake in GM, and the Canadian government still owns a 12% stake in the company. The Ontario government has owned a 3.8% stake in the company since 2009.
GM had filed for Chapter 11 reorganization on June 8, 2009. Only the US Subsidiary was forced into bankruptcy. Shareholders were left without access to assets from GM owned assets in Asia or Europe. On July 10, 2009, General Motors emerged from Chapter 11 reorganization.[67][68][69] The Company was listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange again on November 18, 2010 following a US$33-a-share initial public offering of US$23 billion, including preferred shares. The shareholding in the Company by the U.S. Treasury department is reduced from about 61% to about 33%, including preferred shares and accounting for stock options given to former GM bondholders.[70][71] Disposal of such shares gave the Treasury department about US$13.6 billion in proceeds. It was previously estimated that the Treasury would have to sell GM shares at an average of $43.67 a share to break even. SAIC Motor, partner of GM in China and India, acquired just less than 1 percent of the GM shares for about $500 million.[72][73]
General Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Based on the facts, had Obama NOT provided GM with tax payer capital, they never could have re-emerged from the bankruptcy he forced them into. So, while I have always disagreed with the bail outs of Wall Street, GM and Chrysler, it would appear that Grandma is twisting the facts to once again attempt to bash Obama. Pretty typical for her....
At the end of March 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama declined to provide financial aid to General Motors, and requested that General Motors produce credible plans, saying that the company's proposals had avoided tough decisions, and that Chapter 11 bankruptcy appeared the most promising way to reduce its debts, by allowing the courts to compel bondholders and trade unions into settlements. Chapter 11 filing was necessitated largely by inability of former GM entity to support its pension liabilities and also to form commercial alliances with other automakers that could have aided cost reductions in existing business model. On June 8, 2009, General Motors filed for reorganization under the provisions of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, and as a direct result investments of all former common stockholders were lost completely, (Reorganized GMGMQ Corporate statement of June 10, 2009; "GM management strongly believes that any recovery for the common stockholders in the chapter 11 bankruptcy process is highly unlikely, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied." Prior to chapter 11, the former GM stock hit a high of $93.63 on April 28, 2000.). On July 10, 2009, with financing partially provided by the US Government, General Motors emerged from reorganization. GM was re-listed on the NYSE on November 18, 2010, setting the record for the largest IPO in US history with a value of $20.1 billion.[66] Before the IPO, the U.S. government owned a 27% stake in GM, and the Canadian government still owns a 12% stake in the company. The Ontario government has owned a 3.8% stake in the company since 2009.
GM had filed for Chapter 11 reorganization on June 8, 2009. Only the US Subsidiary was forced into bankruptcy. Shareholders were left without access to assets from GM owned assets in Asia or Europe. On July 10, 2009, General Motors emerged from Chapter 11 reorganization.[67][68][69] The Company was listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange again on November 18, 2010 following a US$33-a-share initial public offering of US$23 billion, including preferred shares. The shareholding in the Company by the U.S. Treasury department is reduced from about 61% to about 33%, including preferred shares and accounting for stock options given to former GM bondholders.[70][71] Disposal of such shares gave the Treasury department about US$13.6 billion in proceeds. It was previously estimated that the Treasury would have to sell GM shares at an average of $43.67 a share to break even. SAIC Motor, partner of GM in China and India, acquired just less than 1 percent of the GM shares for about $500 million.[72][73]
General Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Based on the facts, had Obama NOT provided GM with tax payer capital, they never could have re-emerged from the bankruptcy he forced them into. So, while I have always disagreed with the bail outs of Wall Street, GM and Chrysler, it would appear that Grandma is twisting the facts to once again attempt to bash Obama. Pretty typical for her....
Except you're leaving out what our money was used for. I'll give you one guess......it starts with a U.
And wicki is NOT a reputable source as ANYONE can post "facts" (loosely used) on there.
their hate of Obama is becoming pathalogical
"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....
Kind of hard to call a white man a ******.
I personally don't recall Obama being refered to as such by those on the right. I only see it when the left is trying to attack the right and making claims that can not be substaintiated.
I do remember McCain being questioned about his citizenship though.
I also remember the vitriol hurled at Bush for 6 years.
can you defend that position? in what way would GM have recovered sooner had they simply filed for bankruptcy rather than receive government assistance?If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.
as it currently stands, most economics believe that the bailout money saved between 1 and 1.4 million jobs.
"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....
Kind of hard to call a white man a ******.
I personally don't recall Obama being refered to as such by those on the right. I only see it when the left is trying to attack the right and making claims that can not be substaintiated.
I do remember McCain being questioned about his citizenship though.
I also remember the vitriol hurled at Bush for 6 years.
I see you joined this board around the same time I did. If you were active, then you simply refused to see all of the right wing nuts on here call Obama a ****** and a terrorist day in and day out.
can you defend that position? in what way would GM have recovered sooner had they simply filed for bankruptcy rather than receive government assistance?If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.
as it currently stands, most economics believe that the bailout money saved between 1 and 1.4 million jobs.
At the end of March 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama declined to provide financial aid to General Motors, and requested that General Motors produce credible plans, saying that the company's proposals had avoided tough decisions, and that Chapter 11 bankruptcy appeared the most promising way to reduce its debts, by allowing the courts to compel bondholders and trade unions into settlements. Chapter 11 filing was necessitated largely by inability of former GM entity to support its pension liabilities and also to form commercial alliances with other automakers that could have aided cost reductions in existing business model. On June 8, 2009, General Motors filed for reorganization under the provisions of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, and as a direct result investments of all former common stockholders were lost completely, (Reorganized GMGMQ Corporate statement of June 10, 2009; "GM management strongly believes that any recovery for the common stockholders in the chapter 11 bankruptcy process is highly unlikely, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied." Prior to chapter 11, the former GM stock hit a high of $93.63 on April 28, 2000.). On July 10, 2009, with financing partially provided by the US Government, General Motors emerged from reorganization. GM was re-listed on the NYSE on November 18, 2010, setting the record for the largest IPO in US history with a value of $20.1 billion.[66] Before the IPO, the U.S. government owned a 27% stake in GM, and the Canadian government still owns a 12% stake in the company. The Ontario government has owned a 3.8% stake in the company since 2009.
GM had filed for Chapter 11 reorganization on June 8, 2009. Only the US Subsidiary was forced into bankruptcy. Shareholders were left without access to assets from GM owned assets in Asia or Europe. On July 10, 2009, General Motors emerged from Chapter 11 reorganization.[67][68][69] The Company was listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange again on November 18, 2010 following a US$33-a-share initial public offering of US$23 billion, including preferred shares. The shareholding in the Company by the U.S. Treasury department is reduced from about 61% to about 33%, including preferred shares and accounting for stock options given to former GM bondholders.[70][71] Disposal of such shares gave the Treasury department about US$13.6 billion in proceeds. It was previously estimated that the Treasury would have to sell GM shares at an average of $43.67 a share to break even. SAIC Motor, partner of GM in China and India, acquired just less than 1 percent of the GM shares for about $500 million.[72][73]
General Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Based on the facts, had Obama NOT provided GM with tax payer capital, they never could have re-emerged from the bankruptcy he forced them into. So, while I have always disagreed with the bail outs of Wall Street, GM and Chrysler, it would appear that Grandma is twisting the facts to once again attempt to bash Obama. Pretty typical for her....
How is it that you can say that Obama forced GM into bankruptcy, only to bail them out with our money, and not be angry at Obama?
Where do you people get this disconnect from?
But why did the unions get to benefit from that at the taxpayer expense? You say they saved the bond holders from complete loss, so they should be happy. But, that doesn't explain how the union comes out ahead at the end of the deal at the bond holders expense, does it? They took the risks, not the union.
It would help if you two knew what you were talking about.
Gov't bailout turns tables for auto union
From your article..
But things got more complex when the government bailed out General Motors and Chrysler two years ago in a deal that left the union with big chunks of stock in both companies.
By what right did the government take the stock from the investors who had paid for it and give it to the union? And how is it not a conflict of interest for the union?
their hate of Obama is becoming pathalogical
"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....
For the record I will never buy another GM auto. And I know many like minded individuals. Spin it however you like but I will only support companies that conduct business properly. Ford had the same hurdles and managed to do just fine.
And the rich do not create jobs the consumers buying stuff does.
Anyone who believes otherwise is easily fooled in my opinion.
Had the bailout that both Bush and Obama were for worked, the company wouldn't have gone bankrupt anyway. All Obama ultimately did was steal wealth from the bond holders and line the pockets of the unions with it. The company itself remained in the red until the bankruptcy judge allowed certain debts to be dumped and restructured the remaining debts.
Bankruptcy saved GM. Obama saved union votes and wasted our tax dollars.
Anyone who believes otherwise is easily fooled in my opinion.
Had the bailout that both Bush and Obama were for worked, the company wouldn't have gone bankrupt anyway. All Obama ultimately did was steal wealth from the bond holders and line the pockets of the unions with it. The company itself remained in the red until the bankruptcy judge allowed certain debts to be dumped and restructured the remaining debts.
Bankruptcy saved GM. Obama saved union votes and wasted our tax dollars.
Where was the private equity going to come from?
