Now THIS is what the second amendment is about!

[007]

 

[007]

 

[Spoonman]

every time i read the second amendment I see nothing at all about limitations or restrictions. once again liberals are seeing things

 

[richstacy]

Yeah sure, it's 'legal' but the number of hoops you have to jump through mean very few do.

And while the federal government hasn't made them illegal, they have made them illegal to import and illegal to manufacture for domestic civilian sale.

This is why the single biggest deterrent to machine gun ownership is the cost. They aren't cheap. And those who own them guard them carefully. So very few criminals end up with them.

The reason why they are so expensive is because the federal government has

made them illegal to import and illegal to manufacture for domestic civilian sale.

The Hughes Amend basically cut off any new full autos for the civilian market as of 1986. At that time there were ~300,000 legally registered, of which ~150,000 were owned by local and state governments and ~150,000 were privately owned. Thus only about 150,000 can even be owned by civilians... simple rules of supply and demand dictate that prices will be extremely high. A full auto AK-47 on the international market is ~$250. A legally owned full auto AK-47 in the USA? I coulod not even find one listed for sale.

In addition, one must go through a full FBI background check with fingerprints and get a permission slip from your local neighborhood sheriff (or chief law enforcement officer---CLEO)

150,000 legal privately owned full autos among 300,000,000 firearms in the U.S. makes them pretty irrelevant.

 

[Spoonman]

Obama Administration Pushes For Assault Weapons Ban Vote, But Says No National Gun Registry Needed

 

[PaulS1950]

The fact is, you can own them. You can shoot them. They are available to law abiding citizens.
Yes, you have to fill out some forms and pay $200 but I did more than that to buy my house!

 

[richstacy]

The fact is, you can own them. You can shoot them. They are available to law abiding citizens.
Yes, you have to fill out some forms and pay $200 but I did more than that to buy my house!

Yes, but tens of millions own houses -- and very few own automatic weapons.

 

[emilynghiem]

There should have been someone assisting the boy - a parent preferrably but at least a range safety officer - to make sure the lad could hold on to the weapon. Very sad...

This is the first injury (and death) that I have heard about in all the many years that these shoots have been going on. It should never have happened.

Is it really safe for a boy this young to hold and shoot that kind of gun by himself?

If there are restrictions on the height, weight or age of children riding certain carnival rides (which may require certain height or body weight to be safe) certainly guns of specific types of design or weight would also have limits that make them safe or unsafe to handle as well.

 

[emilynghiem]

Mostly just annual events but these are privately owned guns that you can pay to shoot at these events.
Ain't America great!

I wouldn't promote gun ownership and rights
without FIRST promoting equal responsibility for Constitutional defense
and law enforcement as the purpose of bearing arms.

I think THAT is what America and the 2nd Amendment are about!

The Armed Citizen Project - Home

See previous thread when this project was launched as part of a graduate study on crime and gun policies:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...-arm-law-abiding-citizens-in-crime-study.html

 

[M14 Shooter]

The fact is, you can own them. You can shoot them. They are available to law abiding citizens.
Yes, you have to fill out some forms and pay $200 but I did more than that to buy my house!

Yes, but tens of millions own houses -- and very few own automatic weapons.

In 1995, ther were ~240,000 legal machineguns in civilian hands.
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
US opulation 1995: 262,000,000
So, roughly 1 in every 1100 people legally own a machinegun.

Betcha that's a lot more common than you thought.

 

[legaleagle_45]

In 1995, ther were ~240,000 legal machineguns in civilian hands.
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
US opulation 1995: 262,000,000
So, roughly 1 in every 1100 people legally own a machinegun.

Betcha that's a lot more common than you thought.

Somewhat misleading. In 1995 there were 240,000 automatic weapons registered with the ATF. That includes automatic weapons registered with ATF by local and state governments, which results in a figure of approx 150,000 auto weapons legally in civilian hands. I had a link on that at one time and I can probably track it down if you desire...

Of course, and because of the Huges Amendment, that number will not grow... unless registered weapons from local and state governments migrate to the civilian market... Which is a possibility as those weapons have a huge value as legal full auto and the state and local government can sell them for 10 times what it would cost to replace them (since they are not restricted by the Hughes Amendment).

 

[richstacy]

The fact is, you can own them. You can shoot them. They are available to law abiding citizens.
Yes, you have to fill out some forms and pay $200 but I did more than that to buy my house!

Yes, but tens of millions own houses -- and very few own automatic weapons.

In 1995, ther were ~240,000 legal machineguns in civilian hands.
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
US opulation 1995: 262,000,000
So, roughly 1 in every 1100 people legally own a machinegun.

Betcha that's a lot more common than you thought.

Actually the 2010 census showed a population of roughly 310 million not 262 million. And as someone else pointed out, roughly half the fully auto weapons are in the hands of state and local governments, PDs and SOs not private citizens. Maybe 130,000 in true private ownership. So as you well knew, your figures are way off. It's more like one for every 2500 people. But either way, it's a tiny, tiny percentage. More people than that have AIDS. more than 500,000 people will die of cancer this year alone. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.3322/caac.20138/pdfso Actually the number of private machine gun owners is much smaller than you seem to think. In any event, it's entirely irrelevant because machine guns are not even in the discussion. by comparison there are 300,000,000 guns in the U.S. Including my 3 handguns. A ban on so called assault weapons is on the table and it cannot pass either the U.S. Senate or the heavily Democratically controlled legislature here in Colorado. We should rejoice! If you are concerned about 2nd Amendment rights as I am, machine guns are hardly the relevant topic.

 

[PaulS1950]

Machine guns are relevant to the second amendment rights. After all, any weapon comonly used by the infantry are protected by the second amendment.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Machine guns are relevant to the second amendment rights. After all, any weapon comonly used by the infantry are protected by the second amendment.

I sympathize, but from a pragmatic standpoint, you are not going to get there. A decent legal argument can be formulated that full auto are not an arm for purposes of the 2nd. Whether that argument is "correct" or not is irrelevant as judges will in fact grab onto the argument so as to avoid machine guns being protected by the 2nd. You are not going to convince 5 justices on scotus that machine guns are protected by the 2nd and attempting to do so will only serve to undercut your position on other firearms. That is exactly why Alan Gura threw full auto under the bus during oral arguments in Heller.

The best you can realistically hope for re: full auto is the repeal of the Hughes Amendment.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yes, but tens of millions own houses -- and very few own automatic weapons.

In 1995, ther were ~240,000 legal machineguns in civilian hands.
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
US opulation 1995: 262,000,000
So, roughly 1 in every 1100 people legally own a machinegun.
Betcha that's a lot more common than you thought.

Actually the 2010 census showed a population of roughly 310 million not 262 million. And as someone else pointed out, roughly half the fully auto weapons are in the hands of state and local governments, PDs and SOs not private citizens.

The BATF figure is for guns in private hands.
Still betting that it's a lot more common than you thought.

 

[richstacy]

Whether it's one in 1100 or one in 2000, it is still very, very UNCOMMON. It is not a relevant factor in the gun control debate.

 

[PaulS1950]

At the very least it is 100 full auto guns in the hands of civilians in a medium sized city of 200,000 people.

 

[richstacy]

At the very least it is 100 full auto guns in the hands of civilians in a medium sized city of 200,000 people.

And your point is???

 

[The2ndAmendment]

This is an awesome video.

Going to make another sock account on the Democratic Underground and post it there.

 

[richstacy]

This is an awesome video.

Going to make another sock account on the Democratic Underground and post it there.

I have no idea what you man by "practice of the 2nd Amendment." I assume you mean "interpretation." if you do, you are dead wrong.

I am a strong advocate of Second Amendment rights, I aced Con Law and have briefed and argued many constitutional questions in state and federal appellate courts.

As I recall, I have fired the following fully automatic weapons in the military and in law enforcement: 50 and 30 cal. machine guns, Thompson sub. Uzi, Grease gun (I was armed with that for a year) M-16. There was nothing "awesome" about it, it's just something you do in the course of your life.

The U.S Supreme Court has recently affirmed our right to possess firearms for self protection in the home. This is the biggest advance in Second Amendment rights in my lifetime. But the court was careful to point out that there are restrictions on 2nd Amendment rights just as there are on all Constitutional rights.

For example despite the first Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion, you cannot have a religion that requires the sacrifice of human babies, or virgins, or that its members prove themselves by killing someone. And despite the guarantee of freedom of speech, you cannot slander your neighbor, yell fire in a crowded theatre, or preach the violent overthrow of the United States of America.

You say the second Amendment is supreme and there can be no restrictions on it.

Do you think that means you can own an F-16 with smart bombs attached to all of the hard points? Try it and see. Do you think that means you can build and possess bombs and other destructive devices without consequence? Try that and see. How about a howitzer with a nuclear round?

I doubt if this will cause you to see the light, but I'm sure others here will get the drift. There are no rights which are not subject to restriction.

The biggest obstacle we have to overcome in our fight to achieve and keep gun rights is extremism in our midst.