Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[Shusha]

No they are not...not in terms of absentee landowner laws and in areas available to them to build communities.

You will have to provide me with a representative example case study to discuss, then, as I am unaware of laws in place in Israel which prohibit Arab Israelis from building communities.

 

[Olde Europe]

The other thing is...a nation can determine for itself who has a right to come, whether right or wrong, every nation does this.

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

 

[Shusha]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

 

[Mindful]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Is modern Greece an artificial creation? Not much of a stir about that.

But if it's Israel...... Need I say more?

 

[Shusha]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Is modern Greece an artificial creation? Not much of a stir about that.

But if it's Israel...... Need I say more?

There are DOZENS of countries which give preferential citizenship to immigrants with an ethnic background from that country. Yet somehow when Israel does it....Makes you go hmmmmmm, doesn't it?

 

[Humanity]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

 

[Hollie]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Is modern Greece an artificial creation? Not much of a stir about that.

But if it's Israel...... Need I say more?

There are DOZENS of countries which give preferential citizenship to immigrants with an ethnic background from that country. Yet somehow when Israel does it....Makes you go hmmmmmm, doesn't it?

We can also acknowledge that an identifiable portion of the posters in these threads will refuse to discuss that a great many nations under the strictures of one particular politico-religious ideology specifically and ruthlessly discriminate against those not of the "correct" politico-religious ideology.

 

[Shusha]

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

I wonder how many of them have been under continual attack from foreign armies and internal terrorism? I wonder how many of them have been told that they have no right to have a State. I wonder how many of them have been subjected to thousands of years of a Diaspora, under constant threat of discrimination, pogroms and genocide?

 

[Hollie]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

How many of those "new" countries are surrounded politically, geographically and ideologically by angry retrogrades who believe that their fascist, 7th century worldview must be imposed on all?

 

[Shusha]

We can also acknowledge that an identifiable portion of the posters in these threads will refuse to discuss that a great many nations under the strictures of one particular politico-religious ideology specifically and ruthlessly discriminate against those not of the "correct" politico-religious ideology.

No kidding. Somehow when the discussion turns to actual discrimination in law -- like Iran's law that Jews are subject to different legal punishments -- they can't be found anywhere. Or they insist Jews are very happy in Iran, apartheid laws and all.

 

[Mindful]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

Like North Cyprus, you mean?

 

[Shusha]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

Like North Cyprus, you mean?

Or Morocco.

 

[Shusha]

Indonesia

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

For example, here is an article from a few years ago which discusses the tendering of land plots for purchase. It clearly identifies a discrimination concerning mixed communities. It seems apparent that this discrimination works both ways -- as in BOTH groups are wary of losing the ethnic nature of their communities and resist inclusivity. And there is definitely an element of fear on both sides.

What I DON'T see is active Israeli government and legal support for one-sided discrimination against Arabs. On the contrary, Israel appears to be working conscientiously to walk a very, very fine line between support and respect for certain groups and fairness for all. In a volatile and conflict-ridden reality. Might they do better? Perhaps. How would you suggest they do better?

 

[Coyote]

The fear is there because that is not how they see events unfolding and there is some legitimacy in those fears. Land loss and confiscations through absentee landowner laws look VERY DIFFERENT to an Arab than to a Jew. Where as Israeli Jews are seeing a society where Arab citizens have the same “rights” as Jews, Arabs see a society where they are discriminated against, despised, do not have the same land rights. They have seen some of their political parties banned, make a fraction of the income their Jewish counterparts do and receive a fraction of the investment in their communities but by the Israeli government. Are the fears really irrational? I don’t think so.

I think maybe you are in some respects conflating Arab Palestinians and Arab Israelis. We are speaking here strictly of Arab Israeli citizens.

Confiscations happened to BOTH Arabs and Jews. Internally displaced absentee landowners should be restored where possible, and compensated where not. For BOTH Arabs and Jews. Sorting it out is a mess, but Israel's court system appears to me to be fair and if anything slightly discriminatory towards Israeli Jews rather than Israeli Arabs. If you have specific examples you want to discuss, I'd be glad to go into more detail.

Israeli Arabs, by definition, have not had ANY land loss in terms of sovereignty. (And actually, Palestine has not experienced any actual "land loss" either since the territory is still disputed.)

I disagree with you that Arab Israelis see a society where they are discriminated against, despised and do not have the same rights. Again, I'd be glad to discuss any specific cases with you, but I think you are conflating Arab Israelis with Arab Palestinian rights, especially in Area C. Remember the Supreme Court has upheld the decision that there can be no such thing as Jew-only communities while there can be Arab-only communities. Its affirmative action.

Yes, I don't disagree that there is discrimination (as there is everywhere in the world) but I also see Israel working to address that discrimination for all its citizens.

To my knowledge, the only political party banned in Israel was a Jewish one, but feel free to link me.

I did a LOT of research into the economic disparity between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews and if you correct for the very small number of working Arab women (a cultural thing and not a discrimination thing) and for the Bedouin peoples (again a cultural thing and not a discrimination thing) there is not much of a wage gap between Arab and Jewish Israelis. And that wage gap can be largely attributed to education -- the more highly educated, the higher the wage. Arabs tend to go to school for fewer years than Jews. Why is that? Is it a cultural thing or a discrimination thing? Or something else at play?

Well, I have on other threads posted articles on how the absentee landlord laws target Arabs. That was one issue brought up before. And I provided one article on the very unequal government funding.

Here is something on banning political parties:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/paradox-arab-member-israel-knesset-160216055021671.html

Https://en.idi.org.il/articles/11889

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7825032

In terms of discrimination, it is more complex. For example, this article is good ( The paradox of being an Arab member of Israel's Knesset ) if you can get past the paywall, it asks why Arabs, despite having good grades, aren’t able to get jobs in the high tech sector. The reasons are any, including lack of connections to open doors, waiting too long to start looking (their Jewish counterparts are already looking by their second year of school while Arab students are focusing on their studies and grades). A lot of emphasis is on connections, which begin during IDF service and a lot of the high tech development are in the military, which won’t hire Arabs.

Pew looked at perception of discrimination in Israel.
Israeli Jews, Arabs have different perspectives on discrimination in their society

And actual examples in Israeli society...

Court orders Jews-only job site to be taken down

Disparities in education...https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/10/28/499710857/in-israel-a-push-to-get-more-ara

Fedila argues the Arab-Israeli education system has been neglected, leading to sobering statistics: only 12 percent of Arab high school students matriculate to Israeli universities, and only 9 percent of them get bachelor's degrees, which are often required for management jobs.

"The budgeting is much lower in Arab schools than in Jewish schools... The quality of people working in the system, the books: it's all connected to the same thing," she said. "Separate, and it's not equal at all."

There are numerous articles on educational funding...
Arab students in Jerusalem get less than half the funding of Jewish counterparts

Municipality transfers less to East Jerusalem schools than the budget provided by the Education Ministry.

A pupil in a municipal high school in East Jerusalem gets less than half the funding of his counterpart in the western part of the capital, according to the Jerusalem municipality’s budget.

In fact, there are East Jerusalem schools that don’t even get the funds that the Education Ministry gives the city for them, as is shown by an analysis of the budget. The municipality claims that the analysis is incorrect and ignores the differences between the educational systems.

 

[Shusha]

Well, I have on other threads posted articles on how the absentee landlord laws target Arabs. That was one issue brought up before. And I provided one article on the very unequal government funding.

Re: Housing

Israeli Arabs? Clearly, they failed to make an impression. Look, I would own up if I saw an good article which showed that Israeli Arabs are being systematically and institutionally discriminated against. And its been a while since we discussed this, a year? so bare with my old brain for not recalling every article you posted.

Remember, we are not discussing whether or not there is discrimination (we both agree there clearly is) - - we are discussing whether or not there is an institutionalized and systematic deliberate oppression of Arab citizens of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

Disparities in education...https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/10/28/499710857/in-israel-a-push-to-get-more-ara

Fedila argues the Arab-Israeli education system has been neglected, leading to sobering statistics: only 12 percent of Arab high school students matriculate to Israeli universities, and only 9 percent of them get bachelor's degrees, which are often required for management jobs.

"The budgeting is much lower in Arab schools than in Jewish schools... The quality of people working in the system, the books: it's all connected to the same thing," she said. "Separate, and it's not equal at all."

There are numerous articles on educational funding...
Arab students in Jerusalem get less than half the funding of Jewish counterparts

Municipality transfers less to East Jerusalem schools than the budget provided by the Education Ministry.

A pupil in a municipal high school in East Jerusalem gets less than half the funding of his counterpart in the western part of the capital, according to the Jerusalem municipality’s budget.

In fact, there are East Jerusalem schools that don’t even get the funds that the Education Ministry gives the city for them, as is shown by an analysis of the budget. The municipality claims that the analysis is incorrect and ignores the differences between the educational systems.

Re: Education

Yes, yes, I read many of those articles in my research in the past few days. They give alot of opinions and perceptions of problems and the reasons behind them, but not much in the way of research or facts. So it seems imprudent to claim that just because someone says, for example, and I quote: "The budgeting is much lower in Arab schools than in Jewish schools... The quality of people working in the system, the books: it's all connected to the same thing," she said. "Separate, and it's not equal at all." that this represents some sort of objective truth. One of the research articles I read pointed out that there is a wide-spread perception of Arab/Jewish wage disparity, but when examined, it proves not to be the case. And even if it does prove to be the case, the cause is not necessarily an institutionalized discrimination but a wide variety of cultural and integrated factors.

With respect to budgets and broad claims like "Arab schools get half the funding of Jewish schools", there are myriad factors at play. The government funding for all public schools is exactly the same, with the same criteria by every article I read that was not an opinion article. There are numerous conflating issues, like building rental vs. building ownership, which is accounted separately. There are also issues with private funding. For example, I understand that Jewish parents and Jewish philanthropists tend to provide additional funding to make up shortfalls in the Jewish schools. So the discrepancy may be the willingness of Jewish parents to fund the children's education. Why does this happen? There can be all sorts of reasons. Is it an institutionalized discrimination against Arabs? No.

What I am asking for is to go beyond the easy answer opinion articles and dig deeper. I'm asking you to recognize the complexity of the problem and the myriad reasons for it. Just as you would when exploring the discrimination against POC in the US. These are complex problems. They should be addressed as such and not as an assumption that Israel's government has a policy of only giving Arab students $10 a year while giving Jewish students $20. Because that just isn't true.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

Another example of the complexity of the problem. In Israel, each ethnic group is taught in their own native language. This is good, right? This is respect and preservation and protection of each group's culture, right? Not so different than the Canadian system where English-speakers and French-speakers are each taught, in school, in their native language. Each is also provided with education of the other language. For French speakers this is largely culturally necessary to function well in Canada. (Being monolingual French in Canada would be very difficult except possibly in some rural areas, imo). For English-speakers this is largely voluntary, though many of us make that choice.

Like Canada, Israel has one dominant language. It is largely culturally necessary for native Arabic speakers to also learn Hebrew. In addition, though, English is also a dominant language in Israel and this applies particularly to certain job markets. The bottom line looks something like this:

Mother tongue Hebrew speakers receive all their instruction in Hebrew and also take classes in English.

Mother tongue Arabic speakers receive all their instruction in Arabic and also take classes in Hebrew (necessary to function in society) and in English (necessary for certain career paths).

So the time spent in school by Hebrew speakers is divided between two languages and by Arabic speakers between three languages. Clearly, it is harder and takes more time to learn three languages rather than just two, putting Arabic speakers at a disadvantage.

Is this institutionalized discrimination?

If it is, what is the solution to this problem? We could eliminate Arabic in school, evening the playing field, but that seems to push the culturally dominant languages to the fore and reject the value of Arabic as a language (cue uproar). We could eliminate the Hebrew for Arabic speakers, but that would create a problem with respect to accessing the dominant culture, including creating impediments to jobs in certain sectors (cue uproar). We could eliminate the English for Arabic speakers, but that would create disparities in accessing certain higher paying jobs (cue uproar). We could require all students to learn all three languages, but that would be a tough sell (sure was in Canada).

 

[Shusha]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

Oh. And btw, Israel does not illegally occupy territory. The other three mentioned (Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia do).

 

[Coyote]

Disparities in education...https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/10/28/499710857/in-israel-a-push-to-get-more-ara

Fedila argues the Arab-Israeli education system has been neglected, leading to sobering statistics: only 12 percent of Arab high school students matriculate to Israeli universities, and only 9 percent of them get bachelor's degrees, which are often required for management jobs.

"The budgeting is much lower in Arab schools than in Jewish schools... The quality of people working in the system, the books: it's all connected to the same thing," she said. "Separate, and it's not equal at all."

There are numerous articles on educational funding...
Arab students in Jerusalem get less than half the funding of Jewish counterparts

Municipality transfers less to East Jerusalem schools than the budget provided by the Education Ministry.

A pupil in a municipal high school in East Jerusalem gets less than half the funding of his counterpart in the western part of the capital, according to the Jerusalem municipality’s budget.

In fact, there are East Jerusalem schools that don’t even get the funds that the Education Ministry gives the city for them, as is shown by an analysis of the budget. The municipality claims that the analysis is incorrect and ignores the differences between the educational systems.

Re: Education

Yes, yes, I read many of those articles in my research in the past few days. They give alot of opinions and perceptions of problems and the reasons behind them, but not much in the way of research or facts. So it seems imprudent to claim that just because someone says, for example, and I quote: "The budgeting is much lower in Arab schools than in Jewish schools... The quality of people working in the system, the books: it's all connected to the same thing," she said. "Separate, and it's not equal at all." that this represents some sort of objective truth. One of the research articles I read pointed out that there is a wide-spread perception of Arab/Jewish wage disparity, but when examined, it proves not to be the case. And even if it does prove to be the case, the cause is not necessarily an institutionalized discrimination but a wide variety of cultural and integrated factors.

With respect to budgets and broad claims like "Arab schools get half the funding of Jewish schools", there are myriad factors at play. The government funding for all public schools is exactly the same, with the same criteria by every article I read that was not an opinion article. There are numerous conflating issues, like building rental vs. building ownership, which is accounted separately. There are also issues with private funding. For example, I understand that Jewish parents and Jewish philanthropists tend to provide additional funding to make up shortfalls in the Jewish schools. So the discrepancy may be the willingness of Jewish parents to fund the children's education. Why does this happen? There can be all sorts of reasons. Is it an institutionalized discrimination against Arabs? No.

What I am asking for is to go beyond the easy answer opinion articles and dig deeper. I'm asking you to recognize the complexity of the problem and the myriad reasons for it. Just as you would when exploring the discrimination against POC in the US. These are complex problems. They should be addressed as such and not as an assumption that Israel's government has a policy of only giving Arab students $10 a year while giving Jewish students $20. Because that just isn't true.

I understand the complexities, because they exist in our schools, but our schools are funded heavily through local taxes, so it is easy to see why funding is so variable.

But let’s look at the one example in Jerusalem. That did not look good imo. What are your thoughts there?