Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[Coyote]

Well, I have on other threads posted articles on how the absentee landlord laws target Arabs. That was one issue brought up before. And I provided one article on the very unequal government funding.

Re: Housing

Israeli Arabs? Clearly, they failed to make an impression. Look, I would own up if I saw an good article which showed that Israeli Arabs are being systematically and institutionally discriminated against. And its been a while since we discussed this, a year? so bare with my old brain for not recalling every article you posted.

Remember, we are not discussing whether or not there is discrimination (we both agree there clearly is) - - we are discussing whether or not there is an institutionalized and systematic deliberate oppression of Arab citizens of Israel.

Well, I have on other threads posted articles on how the absentee landlord laws target Arabs. That was one issue brought up before. And I provided one article on the very unequal government funding.

Re: Housing

Israeli Arabs? Clearly, they failed to make an impression. Look, I would own up if I saw an good article which showed that Israeli Arabs are being systematically and institutionally discriminated against. And its been a while since we discussed this, a year? so bare with my old brain for not recalling every article you posted.

Remember, we are not discussing whether or not there is discrimination (we both agree there clearly is) - - we are discussing whether or not there is an institutionalized and systematic deliberate oppression of Arab citizens of Israel.

I just realized I am probably conflating discrimination via government and law vs Israeli society in some of these cases.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Is modern Greece an artificial creation? Not much of a stir about that.

But if it's Israel...... Need I say more?

There are DOZENS of countries which give preferential citizenship to immigrants with an ethnic background from that country. Yet somehow when Israel does it....Makes you go hmmmmmm, doesn't it?

Refugees are not immigrants.

 

[Shusha]

I understand the complexities, because they exist in our schools, but our schools are funded heavily through local taxes, so it is easy to see why funding is so variable.

But let’s look at the one example in Jerusalem. That did not look good imo. What are your thoughts there?

My thoughts thus far are that the claim "Arab schools receive half the funding of Jewish schools" has not been demonstrated, let alone the claim that the cause of the funding discrepancy is an institutionalized, systematic, deliberate discrimination against Arab Israelis.

 

[Shusha]

Refugees are not immigrants.

Agreed. The 20,00 or so actual remaining refugees should be permitted re-entry to Israel or Palestine with haste.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No they are not...not in terms of absentee landowner laws and in areas available to them to build communities.

You will have to provide me with a representative example case study to discuss, then, as I am unaware of laws in place in Israel which prohibit Arab Israelis from building communities.

How about rebuilding a destroyed community?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Refugees are not immigrants.

Agreed. The 20,00 or so actual remaining refugees should be permitted re-entry to Israel or Palestine with haste.

Refugees are more than who left. It involves nationality and citizenship that are not erased from successive generations.

 

[Shusha]

I understand the complexities, because they exist in our schools, but our schools are funded heavily through local taxes, so it is easy to see why funding is so variable.

But let’s look at the one example in Jerusalem. That did not look good imo. What are your thoughts there?

My thoughts thus far are that the claim "Arab schools receive half the funding of Jewish schools" has not been demonstrated, let alone the claim that the cause of the funding discrepancy is an institutionalized, systematic, deliberate discrimination against Arab Israelis.

And if the discussion is concerning "East Jerusalem" there are all sorts of confounding factors to consider, not the least of which is jurisdiction. Public schools, private schools, religious schools, secular schools, Israeli funding, Palestinian funding, Israeli curriculum, Palestinian curriculum.

And are we accepting the annexation of "East Jerusalem" by Israel? Or are we denying it? Is Israel responsible for the education of non-Israeli citizens in "East Jerusalem" because they annexed it and it is now part of Israel? Or are we claiming that Israel has no responsibility for education of non-Israeli citizens in "East Jerusalem" because its not Israel's territory. Can't have it both ways.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I thought the article interesting, though the paragraph at the end tainted it.

No it did not. It merely found the appropriate expressions for the situation and for the ways in which this (ultra-) right government and its shills defend, or distract from, the sordid state of affairs.

Jews have the right of "return", even if they didn't set foot anywhere near what is now Israel, and neither did 50 generations of their forebears. Arabs do not have that right, not even those still carrying around the keys to their house, which the Jews blew up or bulldozed 70 years ago. Everyone with the most superficial knowledge about Israel knows this, and none posting on this thread belongs into that category.

In that light:

"There are absolutely no 'rights' in Israel arising from being Jewish as opposed to being Arab."​

Followed by:

"Another useful idiot."​

Quite.

As much as I admire your posting style - I am not sure treating hasbara peddlers as serious interlocutors isn't a disservice to debate.

I have a lot of respect for the postings of Rocco and Shusha...I don’t consider them hasbara peddlers by any means.

The right of return is problematic. Shusha supports it for both sides and has consistently argued this. I don’t believe in any right of return beyond the generation directly affected, for both sides.

The other thing is...a nation can determine for itself who has a right to come, whether right or wrong, every nation does this.

I have a lot of respect for the postings of Rocco and Shusha...I don’t consider them hasbara peddlers by any means.

I do. Have you ever seen a Rocco post where he did no slime the Palestinians. Constant name calling.

 

[Shusha]

Refugees are more than who left. It involves nationality and citizenship that are not erased from successive generations.

Well no. The legal definition of "refugees" excludes all but a small number. But if you want to play the "successive generations" game -- the Jews are in. As are DOZENS of other nations.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
SUB:REF: The reality is that NEITHER Israel nor Palestine has held sovereignty over the entire territory
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

I agree with our friend "Shusha" on the matter of "sovereignty over the entire territory."

Also, with respect to "land loss" -- please no one post that tired old land loss canard map. The reality is that NEITHER Israel nor Palestine has held sovereignty over the entire territory so starting with that is just silly. Second, until the dispute is solved -- no one has lost any land, we simply do not know how much will eventually fall to Israel and how much will fall to Palestine.

(this wasn't directed at you, Coyote)

Good point. Until there is an agreement, Israel has won nothing.

(COMMENT)

BUT, make no mistake... While there is always the possibility that some future negotiation may alter the current status quo, Israel does exercise sovereignty over selected territory that they recognized as theirs and maintain the full right and power of a governing body over itself, to the exclusion of ALL other external powers. However, any of the factions, representing some aspect of authority over what either the Ramallah or Gaza Governments, would be hard-pressed to outline any segment of the territory they individually purport to control (either now or in the past). No one single faction of Arab Palestinian Government has exercised sovereignty over the entirety of all they territory they currently claim.

(SIDEBAR)

The term "win" is really a word without meaning in the perspective of the conflict as seen from 1948 to present. The greatest accomplishments (really worthy of Nobel attention) were the 1949 Armistice Agreements and the two Peace Treaties (1979 and 1994 respectively). History, written a century from now, will record that the leaders of the great nations of the world were not up to the task of creating the peace.

(EPILOG)

Of the Arab League nations that participated in the 1948 conflict, they are today:

• 
  Egypt: Egyptian Movement for Change (2003 → AKA: Kefaya) attempted to secure a return to democracy and promote an atmosphere of greater civil liberties. It is now a relatively quite county. 1979 Peace Treaty with Israeli. Ranks 111th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Jordan: 1994 Peace Treaty with Israel. Ranks 86th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Iraq: The country is fragmented. It remains confused as to what form it should take. The population is still in fear of Jihadist activities, Hostile Insurgents, and Asymmetric Fighters. Ranks 111 on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Syria: Now in the 8th year of a Civil War with the added complication of incursions from the Islamic State. Broken up into six areas of influence. Ranks 149th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Lebanon: Just emerging from a near 16 year Civil War, While considered sovereignty, nearly the entire al-Bekka Valley is controlled by Hezbollah. Ranks 76th on the Human Development Index.
  
• 
  Saudi Arabia: A fairly stable monarchy ruled by the hereditary males heirs of the first king. Ranks 39th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Yemen: Fragmented Failed State.

Whereas:

Israel: Is a very stable Republic. Ranks 19th on the Human Development Index; above all other Middle Eastern, Persian Gulf Coast State, North African and all European Mediterranean States.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The term "win" is really a word without meaning in the perspective of the conflict as seen from 1948 to present.

First, it is illegal to acquire territory by war, but let's set that aside for a moment.

You confuse military control, i.e. occupation, with rights and sovereignty. We agree that military occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

The question that inspires a lot of song and dance by the Israeli side is: Is Israel a state or is it an occupation? There is no unanimous answer to this question.

The Palestinians, many or most, call Israel 48 or 48 land as in 1948 occupied Palestine. And no, this is not just Hamas. "Israeli Arabs" are called 1948 Palestinians. "Eastern" maps show Palestine without Israel. "Western" maps show Israel without Palestine even though they have to use fake armistice line borders to do it.

You have been dancing around this question for years.

If this is considered off topic for this thread, perhaps we should start a new one.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Refugees are more than who left. It involves nationality and citizenship that are not erased from successive generations.

Well no. The legal definition of "refugees" excludes all but a small number. But if you want to play the "successive generations" game -- the Jews are in. As are DOZENS of other nations.

Possibly, but the right to return does not apply only to refugees.

 

[Shusha]

The question that inspires a lot of song and dance by the Israeli side is: Is Israel a state or is it an occupation? There is no unanimous answer to this question

Dude. What planet do you live on? Israel is a state. Without question. There is no song and dance loud enough to make any sane denial of the simple fact.

 

[Shusha]

Refugees are more than who left. It involves nationality and citizenship that are not erased from successive generations.

Well no. The legal definition of "refugees" excludes all but a small number. But if you want to play the "successive generations" game -- the Jews are in. As are DOZENS of other nations.

Possibly, but the right to return does not apply only to refugees.

I quite wholeheartedly agree. Again, the Jewish people are quite happy to play the successive generations game. In fact, the Jewish people are winning the fuck out of that game.

 

[Mindful]

RE: Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
SUB:REF: The reality is that NEITHER Israel nor Palestine has held sovereignty over the entire territory
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

I agree with our friend "Shusha" on the matter of "sovereignty over the entire territory."

Also, with respect to "land loss" -- please no one post that tired old land loss canard map. The reality is that NEITHER Israel nor Palestine has held sovereignty over the entire territory so starting with that is just silly. Second, until the dispute is solved -- no one has lost any land, we simply do not know how much will eventually fall to Israel and how much will fall to Palestine.

(this wasn't directed at you, Coyote)

Good point. Until there is an agreement, Israel has won nothing.

(COMMENT)

BUT, make no mistake... While there is always the possibility that some future negotiation may alter the current status quo, Israel does exercise sovereignty over selected territory that they recognized as theirs and maintain the full right and power of a governing body over itself, to the exclusion of ALL other external powers. However, any of the factions, representing some aspect of authority over what either the Ramallah or Gaza Governments, would be hard-pressed to outline any segment of the territory they individually purport to control (either now or in the past). No one single faction of Arab Palestinian Government has exercised sovereignty over the entirety of all they territory they currently claim.

(SIDEBAR)

The term "win" is really a word without meaning in the perspective of the conflict as seen from 1948 to present. The greatest accomplishments (really worthy of Nobel attention) were the 1949 Armistice Agreements and the two Peace Treaties (1979 and 1994 respectively). History, written a century from now, will record that the leaders of the great nations of the world were not up to the task of creating the peace.

(EPILOG)

Of the Arab League nations that participated in the 1948 conflict, they are today:

• 
  Egypt: Egyptian Movement for Change (2003 → AKA: Kefaya) attempted to secure a return to democracy and promote an atmosphere of greater civil liberties. It is now a relatively quite county. 1979 Peace Treaty with Israeli. Ranks 111th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Jordan: 1994 Peace Treaty with Israel. Ranks 86th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Iraq: The country is fragmented. It remains confused as to what form it should take. The population is still in fear of Jihadist activities, Hostile Insurgents, and Asymmetric Fighters. Ranks 111 on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Syria: Now in the 8th year of a Civil War with the added complication of incursions from the Islamic State. Broken up into six areas of influence. Ranks 149th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Lebanon: Just emerging from a near 16 year Civil War, While considered sovereignty, nearly the entire al-Bekka Valley is controlled by Hezbollah. Ranks 76th on the Human Development Index.
  
• 
  Saudi Arabia: A fairly stable monarchy ruled by the hereditary males heirs of the first king. Ranks 39th on the Human Development Index.
• 
  Yemen: Fragmented Failed State.

Whereas:

Israel: Is a very stable Republic. Ranks 19th on the Human Development Index; above all other Middle Eastern, Persian Gulf Coast State, North African and all European Mediterranean States.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The term "win" is really a word without meaning in the perspective of the conflict as seen from 1948 to present.

First, it is illegal to acquire territory by war, but let's set that aside for a moment.

You confuse military control, i.e. occupation, with rights and sovereignty. We agree that military occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

The question that inspires a lot of song and dance by the Israeli side is: Is Israel a state or is it an occupation? There is no unanimous answer to this question.

The Palestinians, many or most, call Israel 48 or 48 land as in 1948 occupied Palestine. And no, this is not just Hamas. "Israeli Arabs" are called 1948 Palestinians. "Eastern" maps show Palestine without Israel. "Western" maps show Israel without Palestine even though they have to use fake armistice line borders to do it.

You have been dancing around this question for years.

If this is considered off topic for this thread, perhaps we should start a new one.

No. The question is: YOU want it to be an occupation. It's your own personal hobby horse, you've been dancing with for years. (For whatever reason)

 

[Humanity]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

How many of those "new" countries are surrounded politically, geographically and ideologically by angry retrogrades who believe that their fascist, 7th century worldview must be imposed on all?

There is a very simple answer to that...

If you don't get on with your neighbours.... MOVE!

 

[P F Tinmore]

The question that inspires a lot of song and dance by the Israeli side is: Is Israel a state or is it an occupation? There is no unanimous answer to this question

Dude. What planet do you live on? Israel is a state. Without question. There is no song and dance loud enough to make any sane denial of the simple fact.

Let the music begin.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Refugees are more than who left. It involves nationality and citizenship that are not erased from successive generations.

Well no. The legal definition of "refugees" excludes all but a small number. But if you want to play the "successive generations" game -- the Jews are in. As are DOZENS of other nations.

Possibly, but the right to return does not apply only to refugees.

I quite wholeheartedly agree. Again, the Jewish people are quite happy to play the successive generations game. In fact, the Jewish people are winning the fuck out of that game.

It is true that all Israelis born in that territory (most of them) have rights in that territory, as do all Palestinians. That is the problem that has to be resolved.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: > Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, Olde Europe, et al,

Our friend P F Tinmore is partially correct. The terms "refugee" and "immigrant" are distinctly different. But it is possible for an immigrant to be a refugee; because a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country is an immigrant.

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Is modern Greece an artificial creation? Not much of a stir about that. But if it's Israel...... Need I say more?

There are DOZENS of countries which give preferential citizenship to immigrants with an ethnic background from that country. Yet somehow when Israel does it....Makes you go hmmmmmm, doesn't it?

Refugees are not immigrants.

(COMMENT)

The term "refugee," by international convention (UNHCR Convention Status of Refugees) → would not apply to most Arab Palestinians for a number of different reasons. Some of the reasons are here, but the list is NOT all-inclusive.

• It shall not apply to persons who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the UN (ie UNRWA).
• It shall not apply to a person who is recognized by the competent authorities of the country in which he has taken residence as having the rights and obligations which are attached to the possession of the nationality of that country.
• It shall not apply to a person who committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against
humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes;
• It shall not apply to a person who has committed a serious non-political crime outside the country of the refugee prior to his admission to that country as a refugee;
• It shall not apply to a person who has been guilty of acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the UN.​

One more point, By the same international convention, EVERY refugee has duties to the country in which he finds himself, which require in particular that he conform to its laws and regulations as well as to measures taken for the maintenance of public order. This is important to notice because many (many) Arab Palestinians openly advocate violence, and pursue a policy of Armed Struggle in violation of the Hague Regulation. Certainly, no one in the mass of people that took action against the Israeli Border Protection Barriers could be considered a refugee by the international definition.
Finally, do not confuse the Consolidated Eligibility Registration Instruction (CERI) as anything other than Instructions on the Registration for UNRWA. While it uses the word "refugee" --- it is not the same as an internationally recognized "refugee" everywhere else in the world. In fact, the UNRWA CERI program is the only agency program that annually grows refugees, as opposed to resolving the problem.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Humanity]

Oh. And btw, Israel does not illegally occupy territory.

Yes yes... We get it...

Only Israel and zionuts believe it is not illegal. Yawn Yawn Yawn!

 

[Humanity]

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

I wonder how many of those "new" countries created in the last 100 years illegally occupy territory and suppress and blockade their neighbours?

Like North Cyprus, you mean?

Turkey! You mean Turkey.

TRNC is, for all intents and purposes, Turkey.

And, TRNC is a very interesting topic, you should read up on it. The similarities between TRNC and Gaza/Palestine are incredible.