Novel new law prompts towns to agree to rescind gun measures

[WinterBorn]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Bullshit. Most deaths are caused by gangs and other criminals. And the laws don't stop them.

You need to learn to do math. 30,000 gun deaths a year in the US, more than 20,000 of those are suicides. Look it up.

And the total number of deaths by guns (just under 30,000) annually is less than 1/10th of 1%. More than 99.9% of gun owners in the US don't kill anyone at all.

 

[Clementine]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Bullshit. Most deaths are caused by gangs and other criminals. And the laws don't stop them.

You need to learn to do math. 30,000 gun deaths a year in the US, more than 20,000 of those are suicides. Look it up.

If they didn't have guns, they'd take pills or jump off a cliff.

Suicidal people will find a way no matter what.

The number of murders is more pertinent to the argument here.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

It's about time the commies running larger cities can't violate State laws without consequences.

"Barely a week after taking effect, a novel state law that makes it easier for gun-rights groups to challenge local firearms measures in court is already sparking change: Nearly two dozen Pennsylvania municipalities have agreed to get rid of their potentially problematic ordinances rather than face litigation."

Novel new law prompts towns to agree to rescind gun measures - The Daily Progress Wire

Ok dems get out your crying towels and commence your whining.

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

if one repeats a lie often enough, someone somewhere might believe it, i wonder who that might be..? this is the 249,901 times you have said it, i think it goes in quarter million increments, so you need to get busy spreading that lie. ....

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

 

[WinterBorn]

It's about time the commies running larger cities can't violate State laws without consequences.

"Barely a week after taking effect, a novel state law that makes it easier for gun-rights groups to challenge local firearms measures in court is already sparking change: Nearly two dozen Pennsylvania municipalities have agreed to get rid of their potentially problematic ordinances rather than face litigation."

Novel new law prompts towns to agree to rescind gun measures - The Daily Progress Wire

Ok dems get out your crying towels and commence your whining.

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

We mostly don't shoot anyone at all. By a very wide margin.

If you mean most guns don't kill anyone each year, that is correct, but the people who are killed by guns each year are mostly the owners of said guns. Guns are suicide machines.

And you have no evidence that those people would not have found another way to die. Using a gun only shows that they were serious about wanting to die.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Bullshit. Most deaths are caused by gangs and other criminals. And the laws don't stop them.

You need to learn to do math. 30,000 gun deaths a year in the US, more than 20,000 of those are suicides. Look it up.

If they didn't have guns, they'd take pills or jump off a cliff.

Suicidal people will find a way no matter what.

The number of murders is more pertinent to the argument here.

No, it is. And you theory has been proven wrong.

 

[WinterBorn]

It's about time the commies running larger cities can't violate State laws without consequences.

"Barely a week after taking effect, a novel state law that makes it easier for gun-rights groups to challenge local firearms measures in court is already sparking change: Nearly two dozen Pennsylvania municipalities have agreed to get rid of their potentially problematic ordinances rather than face litigation."

Novel new law prompts towns to agree to rescind gun measures - The Daily Progress Wire

Ok dems get out your crying towels and commence your whining.

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

if one repeats a lie often enough, someone somewhere might believe it, i wonder who that might be..? this is the 249,901 times you have said it, i think it goes in quarter million increments, so you need to get busy spreading that lie. ....

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

It's about time the commies running larger cities can't violate State laws without consequences.

"Barely a week after taking effect, a novel state law that makes it easier for gun-rights groups to challenge local firearms measures in court is already sparking change: Nearly two dozen Pennsylvania municipalities have agreed to get rid of their potentially problematic ordinances rather than face litigation."

Novel new law prompts towns to agree to rescind gun measures - The Daily Progress Wire

Ok dems get out your crying towels and commence your whining.

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

We mostly don't shoot anyone at all. By a very wide margin.

If you mean most guns don't kill anyone each year, that is correct, but the people who are killed by guns each year are mostly the owners of said guns. Guns are suicide machines.

And you have no evidence that those people would not have found another way to die. Using a gun only shows that they were serious about wanting to die.

Oh but I do have evidence. Look up the drop in suicides once Australia started getting the guns back from the population. Suicides dropped as a whole, and gun suicides dramatically.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

if one repeats a lie often enough, someone somewhere might believe it, i wonder who that might be..? this is the 249,901 times you have said it, i think it goes in quarter million increments, so you need to get busy spreading that lie. ....

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The faster the buy-back, the steeper the drop. I've read the reports, now you do the same.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Bullshit. Most deaths are caused by gangs and other criminals. And the laws don't stop them.

You need to learn to do math. 30,000 gun deaths a year in the US, more than 20,000 of those are suicides. Look it up.

And the total number of deaths by guns (just under 30,000) annually is less than 1/10th of 1%. More than 99.9% of gun owners in the US don't kill anyone at all.

Each year that is. And what does 0.1 percent each year add up to over a lifetime? 5% maybe?

 

[OKTexas]

if one repeats a lie often enough, someone somewhere might believe it, i wonder who that might be..? this is the 249,901 times you have said it, i think it goes in quarter million increments, so you need to get busy spreading that lie. ....

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The faster the buy-back, the steeper the drop. I've read the reports, now you do the same.

I'll take a look, just a soon as you provide one, it's your claim, back it up.

 

[WinterBorn]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Bullshit. Most deaths are caused by gangs and other criminals. And the laws don't stop them.

You need to learn to do math. 30,000 gun deaths a year in the US, more than 20,000 of those are suicides. Look it up.

And the total number of deaths by guns (just under 30,000) annually is less than 1/10th of 1%. More than 99.9% of gun owners in the US don't kill anyone at all.

Each year that is. And what does 0.1 percent each year add up to over a lifetime? 5% maybe?

Except it is <1%, not 0.1.

And in order to add the years up, you would need to show that all the murders, suicides, and accidental shiootings were by legal gun owners. Obviously they are not.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Bullshit. Most deaths are caused by gangs and other criminals. And the laws don't stop them.

You need to learn to do math. 30,000 gun deaths a year in the US, more than 20,000 of those are suicides. Look it up.

And the total number of deaths by guns (just under 30,000) annually is less than 1/10th of 1%. More than 99.9% of gun owners in the US don't kill anyone at all.

Each year that is. And what does 0.1 percent each year add up to over a lifetime? 5% maybe?

Except it is <1%, not 0.1.

And in order to add the years up, you would need to show that all the murders, suicides, and accidental shiootings were by legal gun owners. Obviously they are not.

The vast majority of suicides are by the owners of the guns or those in the same household. I know that you can't think logically but that's how it works.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The faster the buy-back, the steeper the drop. I've read the reports, now you do the same.

I'll take a look, just a soon as you provide one, it's your claim, back it up.

FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury

Now go look up "firearm death in the US". You'll find it is 30,000 to 32,000, hence most fire deaths are suicides.

 

[OKTexas]

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The faster the buy-back, the steeper the drop. I've read the reports, now you do the same.

I'll take a look, just a soon as you provide one, it's your claim, back it up.

FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury

Now go look up "firearm death in the US". You'll find it is 30,000 to 32,000, hence most fire deaths are suicides.

So firearms only count for 50.5% of suicides, meaning more than 19,000 found a way without a firearm, and you really think the others wouldn't do the same. I'd say you are living in a fairy tale.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The faster the buy-back, the steeper the drop. I've read the reports, now you do the same.

I'll take a look, just a soon as you provide one, it's your claim, back it up.

FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury

Now go look up "firearm death in the US". You'll find it is 30,000 to 32,000, hence most fire deaths are suicides.

So firearms only count for 50.5% of suicides, meaning more than 19,000 found a way without a firearm, and you really think the others wouldn't do the same. I'd say you are living in a fairy tale.

The escape from the reality is the one who doesn't see that when guns are removed the total number of suicides drops, not just the suicides by gun. Let's say that we could drop it by 10,000 a year. That's 100K in ten years, and nothing to sneeze at. Out of 300k firearm deaths in the same period, that's a third. I'm good with that so why aren't you? Why, because that would mean turning in your guns.

 

[Little-Acorn]

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

Looks like little housepainter is still pushing the falsehood about a gun being "43 times as likely to kill a loved on than an intruder". His has told this lie before, and had it debunked to his face. Now he's pushing it again, as though it was never proven wrong to him.

Once again:

The usual nonsense about guns being more dangerous to a house's residents than to a burglar or home invader, has been debunked numerous times.

Here is one such.

------------------------------------------

GunCite - Gun Control Web Site A Gun in the Home

Is My Own Gun More Likely to be Used Against Me or My Family?

Introduction
Some papers in the medical literature have written a homeowner's gun is more likely to kill its owner or family member than kill a criminal, and therefore "the advisability of keeping firearms in the home for protection must be questioned." The most notable (or notorious), and quoted in the previous sentence, is written by doctors Arthur Kellermann and Don Reay, and is titled, "Protection or peril? An analysis of firearms related deaths in the home." (New Engl J Med 1986. 314: 1557-60.)

The oft cited Kellermann paper found a homeowner's gun was 43 times more likely to kill a family member, friend, or acquaintence, than it was used to kill someone in self-defense. Kellermann stated, "for every case of self-protection homicide involving a firearm kept in the home, there were 1.3 accidental deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms." Florida State University professor Gary Kleck appropriately terms these ratios "nonsensical." (Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, pp. 177-179, 1997)

Although this study was published in 1986 its findings continue to be uncritically cited in medical journals, government publications, and non-technical periodicals such as health newsletters, general interest magazines, op-ed pieces, letters-to-the editor, etc.

Not only is Kellermann's methodology flawed, but using the same approach for violent deaths in the home not involving a firearm, the risk factor more than doubles from 43 to 1, to 99 to 1. Let's see why this 43 to 1 ratio is a meaningless indicator of gun ownership risk.

Refutation

First we need to understand how the ratio was derived.

Kellermann tabulated gunshot deaths occurring in King County, Washington, from 1978 to 1983. Table 1 below is taken from Kellermann's paper (Table 3 on p. 1559).

Table 1. Classification of 398 Gunshot Deaths involving a Firearm Kept in the Home

Type of Death . . . . . . . No.
Unintentional deaths . . . 12
Criminal homicide . . . . . 41
Suicide . . . . . . . . . . . . . 333
Unknown . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Total . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 389
Self-protection homicide . 9

As we see from Table 1, a ratio of 389 violent deaths to 9 justifiable homicides gives us the famous 43 to 1 ratio.
Let's apply the same methodology to non-gun deaths and non-gun self-protection homicides in the home, for King County, Washington.

Table 2. Estimation of Violent Deaths in the Home Not Involving a Firearm

Type of Death . . . . . . No.
Unintentional deaths . . . 0
Criminal homicide . . . . 50
Suicide . . . . . . . . . . . . 347
Unknown . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
Total . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 397
Self-protection homicide . 4

This ratio of 397 non-gun violent deaths to 4 justifiable homicides reduces to 99 to 1.

So having applied Kellermann's methodology to non-firearm violent death, the risk factor more than doubles from 43 to 1, to 99 to 1.

Please note, the purpose of this exercise is not to show that using a gun in the home is better than not using one. This exercise does no such thing. It is merely to show how deeply flawed Kellermann's study really is. Further, a number of tremendously important factors are left unaccounted.

For example, another way of looking at it is, more martial artists are probably murdered by non-gun methods than they kill in self-defense. Would we conclude that it is best to avoid learning a martial art for self-defense based on such a "nonsense ratio?" Regardless of how the number crunching had turned-out between gun and non-gun violent deaths in the home, we should be able to see that Kellermann's approach contributes nothing towards establishing a general or personal risk factor for a gun in the home.

What is truly sad about the nonsense-ratio is how often it is cited and uncritically accepted.

To decide whether or not to own a gun for self-defense based solely on a "kill" ratio is folly. To estimate the risks and benefits of gun ownership many more factors need to be considered. An example is defensive gun use, which outnumbers homicides, suicides, and accidents, and is ignored in most of the medical research. (See How often are guns used in self-defense?)[

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Looks like little housepainter is still pushing the falsehood about a gun being "43 times as likely to kill a loved on than an intruder".

Nope. I'm posting that out of 30,000 gun deaths a year, 20,000 are suicides.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It's about time the commies running larger cities can't violate State laws without consequences.

"Barely a week after taking effect, a novel state law that makes it easier for gun-rights groups to challenge local firearms measures in court is already sparking change: Nearly two dozen Pennsylvania municipalities have agreed to get rid of their potentially problematic ordinances rather than face litigation."

Novel new law prompts towns to agree to rescind gun measures - The Daily Progress Wire

Ok dems get out your crying towels and commence your whining.

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

if one repeats a lie often enough, someone somewhere might believe it, i wonder who that might be..? this is the 249,901 times you have said it, i think it goes in quarter million increments, so you need to get busy spreading that lie. ....

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Source and link, the only link I ever saw had suicides flat at the same rate even after the firearms buybacks.

 

[OKTexas]

Not a huge drop, and not for the first year or so.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The faster the buy-back, the steeper the drop. I've read the reports, now you do the same.

I'll take a look, just a soon as you provide one, it's your claim, back it up.

FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury

Now go look up "firearm death in the US". You'll find it is 30,000 to 32,000, hence most fire deaths are suicides.

So firearms only count for 50.5% of suicides, meaning more than 19,000 found a way without a firearm, and you really think the others wouldn't do the same. I'd say you are living in a fairy tale.

The escape from the reality is the one who doesn't see that when guns are removed the total number of suicides drops, not just the suicides by gun. Let's say that we could drop it by 10,000 a year. That's 100K in ten years, and nothing to sneeze at. Out of 300k firearm deaths in the same period, that's a third. I'm good with that so why aren't you? Why, because that would mean turning in your guns.

Yep, a price not worth paying for a few suicidal idiots that will most likely find another way to do themselves in.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

You mostly shoot yourselves, or you kids, or other loved ones. Carry on little gun nuts.

if one repeats a lie often enough, someone somewhere might believe it, i wonder who that might be..? this is the 249,901 times you have said it, i think it goes in quarter million increments, so you need to get busy spreading that lie. ....

When most firearm deaths are people shooting themselves, with their own guns, what part of that do you believe to be a lie?

Those are suicides not accidents, prove that they wouldn't find another way absent a gun. I'm sure you have some obscure study tucked away some where.

See the drop in all suicides, not just gun suicides, when Australia bought the guns back from the population. The faster the buy-back, the sharper the drop. Guns are suicides machines, especially in the US.

Source and link, the only link I ever saw had suicides flat at the same rate even after the firearms buybacks.

Just for you: Did gun control work in Australia - The Washington Post

"Given those flaws in the studies showing no effect, the Leigh and Neill study appears the most reliable of the ones conducted. It seems reasonably clear, then, that the gun buyback led to a large decline in suicides, and weaker but real evidence that it reduced homicides as well. Such a buyback isn't in the cards in the U.S. anytime soon — an equivalent buyback here would entail the destruction of 40 million guns — but the data suggest Howard might have a case."