"No religion" = one third of people

[G.T.]

I assume "the others" are not so thin-skinned that if someone suggests some way they are thinking they will not get all indignant and upset over it. Do you?

It is a "challenge" it is not an assetion of fact on my part. How one responds will help settle the challenge.

As to your other point, if I knew my life was ultimately meaningless --- and that is exactly what a world without a God and without life after death becomes, I mean who cares what Joe Caveman did to help some fawn escape a thorny pit anymore, it has no bearing on the world in any way, shape, or form ---- if I knew my life and contributions would in time become ultimately meaningless, I would be cast into absolute despair and darkness from which I could never recover. Yes, seriously. The thought I would never ever see those dear to me again is reason enough for such despair.

But that's just me, G.T.

You'd be thinking counter intuitively.

It's more rational to strive to make a bigger difference so that your life was NOT meaningless, if there were no afterlife. It's way more of an incentive to attempt to advance Humanity in general. With the afterlife, the incentive to maximize your existence NOW is decreased, necessarily.

Well as an atheist with a big heart, I do not doubt you are trying to maximize temporal pleasure --- that is all good --- but for me as a certain believer in heaven and hell, temporal pleasure is so low on the scale by comparison.

In addition, the assumption that Christians do not care about this world because it is temporary, do not care abou the needs of the needy, well... that has been demonstrated over history to be absolutely false. You KNOW the opposite is true based on the immeasurable amount of charity and missionaries and hospitals and schools and orphanages, et al. Christians have sacrificed their lives to care for others. Of course that all gets ignored when people try to tell us church people are hypocrites and in it for the money. No problem finding a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that hardly proves anything other than man has a sinful nature. The teachings of Jesus are not tarnished by those.

I'm an agnostic.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Many people turn to religion as their ace in the hole security blanket so they can fuck over everyone they can as sinners and say they are saved by their beliefs only for their golden parachute into heaven.

If any Christians think that, then they dont understand Christianity and the Gospel of REPENTENCE.

Gadawg has no idea what Christians as a whole think. He's projecting his beliefs on others.

 

[turzovka]

Accepting that there is no god could make your life much more Valuable. Much, much more.

If I believed I was going to cease to exist, I would soak as much fun, joy and meaning out of this earthly existence as humanly possible. Not the other way around, thats pretty nonsensical.

You shouldn't assume how others think, or what they value. It's pompass, and it's usually wrong.

I assume "the others" are not so thin-skinned that if someone suggests some way they are thinking they will not get all indignant and upset over it. Do you?

It is a "challenge" it is not an assetion of fact on my part. How one responds will help settle the challenge.

As to your other point, if I knew my life was ultimately meaningless --- and that is exactly what a world without a God and without life after death becomes, I mean who cares what Joe Caveman did to help some fawn escape a thorny pit anymore, it has no bearing on the world in any way, shape, or form ---- if I knew my life and contributions would in time become ultimately meaningless, I would be cast into absolute despair and darkness from which I could never recover. Yes, seriously. The thought I would never ever see those dear to me again is reason enough for such despair.

But that's just me, G.T.

And here is that problem with thinking I talked about. It mattered to Joe Caveman. It mattered to the fawn. Why would it need to matter to anyone else?

Why does there have to be a tomorrow for today to have meaning? It seems to me that if there is a God, then this life is a gift. One should focus on experiencing that gift rather than worrying about what happens after. If there is not a God, then worrying is a waste of what you have in exchange for nothing.

Yes, I understand the simple lesson that doing something good for someone else has its own reward for both parties. I get that. But ultimately if there is no greater or lasting good behind that act it is a very despairing world we are inhabiting. To me such “nobility” of “This one life is all I ask for” is a fake nobility, and even harmful.

Who cries the hardest at funerals? Those who believe they will never see their loved one again. Yes, a horrendous thought to bear! So much more egregious than that day at the beach with one’s daughter was glorious. The fun time together was but a flash of a moment, the time apart is forever. I cannot reconcile the two as a satisfactory equation.

Not only that, the evidence for the God I know is undeniable and overwhelming and I am grateful. Sorry that I and others come off so intrusive or arrogant at times, but it’s the risk we choose to take.

 

[Hollie]

I assume "the others" are not so thin-skinned that if someone suggests some way they are thinking they will not get all indignant and upset over it. Do you?

It is a "challenge" it is not an assetion of fact on my part. How one responds will help settle the challenge.

As to your other point, if I knew my life was ultimately meaningless --- and that is exactly what a world without a God and without life after death becomes, I mean who cares what Joe Caveman did to help some fawn escape a thorny pit anymore, it has no bearing on the world in any way, shape, or form ---- if I knew my life and contributions would in time become ultimately meaningless, I would be cast into absolute despair and darkness from which I could never recover. Yes, seriously. The thought I would never ever see those dear to me again is reason enough for such despair.

But that's just me, G.T.

You'd be thinking counter intuitively.

It's more rational to strive to make a bigger difference so that your life was NOT meaningless, if there were no afterlife. It's way more of an incentive to attempt to advance Humanity in general. With the afterlife, the incentive to maximize your existence NOW is decreased, necessarily.

Well as an atheist with a big heart, I do not doubt you are trying to maximize temporal pleasure --- that is all good --- but for me as a certain believer in heaven and hell, temporal pleasure is so low on the scale by comparison.

In addition, the assumption that Christians do not care about this world because it is temporary, do not care abou the needs of the needy, well... that has been demonstrated over history to be absolutely false. You KNOW the opposite is true based on the immeasurable amount of charity and missionaries and hospitals and schools and orphanages, et al. Christians have sacrificed their lives to care for others. Of course that all gets ignored when people try to tell us church people are hypocrites and in it for the money. No problem finding a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that hardly proves anything other than man has a sinful nature. The teachings of Jesus are not tarnished by those.

You are equating belief in the supernatural as equal to being moral. That's a horribly naive clue to make as the history of many religions (specifically to include christianity), is one that includes unbelievable cruelty, war and despotism.

Your comments depict a fear of dying And more to the point, religious beliefs are configured to assuage your fear of dying. Unfortunately, most people are not content with being corporeal. The Gods who wave their hand to wind up the universe and then walk away offers little comfort and security for those theists who have a compelling need to have their wishes granted that death is not the end of life. Equally unfortunate is that most people do not think beyond the paternal image of their gods, and they certainly do not think to examine the accepted claims of what defines most gods. If they did, they would (hopefully) pause and rethink their position.

 

[turzovka]

You'd be thinking counter intuitively.

It's more rational to strive to make a bigger difference so that your life was NOT meaningless, if there were no afterlife. It's way more of an incentive to attempt to advance Humanity in general. With the afterlife, the incentive to maximize your existence NOW is decreased, necessarily.

Well as an atheist with a big heart, I do not doubt you are trying to maximize temporal pleasure --- that is all good --- but for me as a certain believer in heaven and hell, temporal pleasure is so low on the scale by comparison.

In addition, the assumption that Christians do not care about this world because it is temporary, do not care abou the needs of the needy, well... that has been demonstrated over history to be absolutely false. You KNOW the opposite is true based on the immeasurable amount of charity and missionaries and hospitals and schools and orphanages, et al. Christians have sacrificed their lives to care for others. Of course that all gets ignored when people try to tell us church people are hypocrites and in it for the money. No problem finding a wolf in sheep's clothing, but that hardly proves anything other than man has a sinful nature. The teachings of Jesus are not tarnished by those.

You are equating belief in the supernatural as equal to being moral. That's a horribly naive clue to make as the history of many religions (specifically to include christianity), is one that includes unbelievable cruelty, war and despotism.

Your comments depict a fear of dying And more to the point, religious beliefs are configured to assuage your fear of dying. Unfortunately, most people are not content with being corporeal. The Gods who wave their hand to wind up the universe and then walk away offers little comfort and security for those theists who have a compelling need to have their wishes granted that death is not the end of life. Equally unfortunate is that most people do not think beyond the paternal image of their gods, and they certainly do not think to examine the accepted claims of what defines most gods. If they did, they would (hopefully) pause and rethink their position.

I will not argue with your sincerity, but I do say you are attempting to define how we Christians (or many of us) view God, i.e. this unvalidated hope there is something more after this life. Well, that may very well be part of it, but it is far from just an uvalidated hope. There is a great deal of empirical evidence and beyond for the truth of God, and specifically the Judeo-Christian God.

Just because a number of religions have no historical, empirical or factual basis for establishing their authenticity has no bearing on Christianity. In fact, if any of those other creeds are the truth then Christianity is false and offers very little benefit. However, only one can really be true and that is fine with me. I am confident and grateful. I am worried about many things, but not that.

Jesus said (paraphrase) “If you will not put faith in the words that I say then put faith in the works that I perform.” That is what we do, the miracles have followed for those who cannot reason it out. That is how it was in Jesus’ time to. For some reason many could not accept his divinity because of His miracles, but once He rose from the dead, many more embraced the truth and the gift. God says I reveal myself to those who keep the demands of my covenant. Consider that if we go a mile towards God, He comes back ten miles for us. But if we remain with hardened hearts the path will be arduous.

 

[PratchettFan]

I assume "the others" are not so thin-skinned that if someone suggests some way they are thinking they will not get all indignant and upset over it. Do you?

It is a "challenge" it is not an assetion of fact on my part. How one responds will help settle the challenge.

As to your other point, if I knew my life was ultimately meaningless --- and that is exactly what a world without a God and without life after death becomes, I mean who cares what Joe Caveman did to help some fawn escape a thorny pit anymore, it has no bearing on the world in any way, shape, or form ---- if I knew my life and contributions would in time become ultimately meaningless, I would be cast into absolute despair and darkness from which I could never recover. Yes, seriously. The thought I would never ever see those dear to me again is reason enough for such despair.

But that's just me, G.T.

And here is that problem with thinking I talked about. It mattered to Joe Caveman. It mattered to the fawn. Why would it need to matter to anyone else?

Why does there have to be a tomorrow for today to have meaning? It seems to me that if there is a God, then this life is a gift. One should focus on experiencing that gift rather than worrying about what happens after. If there is not a God, then worrying is a waste of what you have in exchange for nothing.

Yes, I understand the simple lesson that doing something good for someone else has its own reward for both parties. I get that. But ultimately if there is no greater or lasting good behind that act it is a very despairing world we are inhabiting. To me such “nobility” of “This one life is all I ask for” is a fake nobility, and even harmful.

Who cries the hardest at funerals? Those who believe they will never see their loved one again. Yes, a horrendous thought to bear! So much more egregious than that day at the beach with one’s daughter was glorious. The fun time together was but a flash of a moment, the time apart is forever. I cannot reconcile the two as a satisfactory equation.

Not only that, the evidence for the God I know is undeniable and overwhelming and I am grateful. Sorry that I and others come off so intrusive or arrogant at times, but it’s the risk we choose to take.

You need not apologize to me for I don't find you intrusive or arrogant. You are expressing your beliefs. I really was being sincere that I am happy for you that you have your beliefs and that they give you comfort. It in no way threatens or disturbs me. What I was doing was precisely what you were doing, attempting to explain my beliefs.

To me what you are saying is that if it turns out you were wrong and there is no God, then your entire life was pointless. The hugs from your mother and father, the moment you met your spouse, the first time your child smiled at you, the first time you held your grandchild. All of that was meaningless. It meant nothing at all. This is what I simply cannot wrap my mind around. To me, all of that has meaning in and of itself. It does not require God or an afterlife. Even if after my death I am nothing, all of my life has still had meaning and it was worth it.

It is okay if you don't see it that way. I am not expecting you to see things the way I see them. I am asking that you understand that simply because I do not see things the way that you see them that I am not somehow bereft of meaning or compassion. All any of us can do is live in accordance with what we feel is right and no God of compassion could ever ask more of us than that. And if the God you believe in is not that God, then I am content to never meet it.

 

[turzovka]

You need not apologize to me for I don't find you intrusive or arrogant. You are expressing your beliefs. I really was being sincere that I am happy for you that you have your beliefs and that they give you comfort. It in no way threatens or disturbs me. What I was doing was precisely what you were doing, attempting to explain my beliefs.

To me what you are saying is that if it turns out you were wrong and there is no God, then your entire life was pointless. The hugs from your mother and father, the moment you met your spouse, the first time your child smiled at you, the first time you held your grandchild. All of that was meaningless. It meant nothing at all. This is what I simply cannot wrap my mind around. To me, all of that has meaning in and of itself. It does not require God or an afterlife. Even if after my death I am nothing, all of my life has still had meaning and it was worth it.

Well I appreciate what you just said, thanks. Understand (I think you do) that these types of exchanges on the internet almost invariably become contentious, if not acerbic, but I don’t think any of us hold any animosity out there?

Maybe “pointless” went too far, but I thought I tried to re-explain that? Anyway, by all means continue on with your care for others, altruism and moments of real joy, I would hope that is something intrinsic in all of us? From my knowledge or beief, I can assure those acts mean all the difference to God as well. So in case you are wrong and have to give an accounting of your life, it will go far better with those who were unselfish and charitiable --- not as easy as it sounds.

It is okay if you don't see it that way. I am not expecting you to see things the way I see them. I am asking that you understand that simply because I do not see things the way that you see them that I am not somehow bereft of meaning or compassion. All any of us can do is live in accordance with what we feel is right and no God of compassion could ever ask more of us than that. And if the God you believe in is not that God, then I am content to never meet it.

Ok, I do not think you are alone by any means either. I do admit, I am perplexed that so many could be truly “content” with only that, but I believe you just the same. Could it not also be all atheists are nothing more than agnostics who just don’t care to take the time and effort to try to figure out some concept or truth that has escaped billions before them, and they would rather do their best with what is right before their eyes? It sounds fairly honorable on paper, but having said that, I just cannot believe that a reasonable man could think our incredible lives could have ever manifested from some primordial sea of sludge without the hand of a divine creator.

 

[PratchettFan]

You need not apologize to me for I don't find you intrusive or arrogant. You are expressing your beliefs. I really was being sincere that I am happy for you that you have your beliefs and that they give you comfort. It in no way threatens or disturbs me. What I was doing was precisely what you were doing, attempting to explain my beliefs.

To me what you are saying is that if it turns out you were wrong and there is no God, then your entire life was pointless. The hugs from your mother and father, the moment you met your spouse, the first time your child smiled at you, the first time you held your grandchild. All of that was meaningless. It meant nothing at all. This is what I simply cannot wrap my mind around. To me, all of that has meaning in and of itself. It does not require God or an afterlife. Even if after my death I am nothing, all of my life has still had meaning and it was worth it.

Well I appreciate what you just said, thanks. Understand (I think you do) that these types of exchanges on the internet almost invariably become contentious, if not acerbic, but I don’t think any of us hold any animosity out there?

Maybe “pointless” went too far, but I thought I tried to re-explain that? Anyway, by all means continue on with your care for others, altruism and moments of real joy, I would hope that is something intrinsic in all of us? From my knowledge or beief, I can assure those acts mean all the difference to God as well. So in case you are wrong and have to give an accounting of your life, it will go far better with those who were unselfish and charitiable --- not as easy as it sounds.

It is okay if you don't see it that way. I am not expecting you to see things the way I see them. I am asking that you understand that simply because I do not see things the way that you see them that I am not somehow bereft of meaning or compassion. All any of us can do is live in accordance with what we feel is right and no God of compassion could ever ask more of us than that. And if the God you believe in is not that God, then I am content to never meet it.

Ok, I do not think you are alone by any means either. I do admit, I am perplexed that so many could be truly “content” with only that, but I believe you just the same. Could it not also be all atheists are nothing more than agnostics who just don’t care to take the time and effort to try to figure out some concept or truth that has escaped billions before them, and they would rather do their best with what is right before their eyes? It sounds fairly honorable on paper, but having said that, I just cannot believe that a reasonable man could think our incredible lives could have ever manifested from some primordial sea of sludge without the hand of a divine creator.

I think that sense of right and wrong is intrinsic in most of us. In those it is not, I suspect they are damaged and that to is something to take into account. I have no idea if I will need to give an accounting. If so, then it will be what it will be. I can only do what I think right.


I cannot speak for others, only myself. I am an agnostic in that I do not know what lies beyond this life. Frankly, I do not care. I have my hands full with living. What happens beyond that will take care of itself. If there is a God, then that being would be quite capable of making itself known in a clear and unmistakable manner. It does not. So either it does not exist or prefers to operate in the background. In either case, the question for me is irrelevant. All that is relevant is that I live my life true to my own beliefs. One of which is that I do not expect others to do the same. I find that both satisfying and meaningful.

 

[Glensather]

"The problem, often not discovered until late in life, is that when you look for things like love, meaning, motivation, it implies they are sitting behind a tree or under a rock. The most successful people recognize, that in life they create their own love, they manufacture their own meaning, they generate their own motivation."

Neil deGrasse Tyson sums up my view on a life without God .