New War Crime Allegations?

[-Cp]

In this image taken from pool video provided to the Associated Press by NBC News, a U.S. marine is seen, left, raising his rifle in the direction of Iraqi prisoners lying on the floor of a mosque in Fallujah, Iraq Saturday Nov. 13, 2004. The pool video was recorded Saturday as the Marines returned to an unidentified Fallujah mosque. The video, in a version aired by CNN showed the Marine raising his rifle toward the prisoners but neither NBC nor CNN showed the shooting itself. The video was blacked out but the report of the rifle could be heard. The bodies in the foreground are other Iraqi prisoners. (AP Photo/NBC News, Pool)

 

[Adam's Apple]

I am just sick and tired of the bs coming from the liberal press about what our soldiers do in combat. WE ARE IN A WAR, FOR GOD'S SAKES!!!!!! Normal conventions don't hold in the thick of battle. I'll bet the reporter who put out this story would have done the same thing as that 19-, 20-, 21-year old marine who didn't know if that injured insurrgent had a gun, grenade, or whatever. I would have shot first and asked questions later, and you know damn well that that war correspondent would have too. After all, the marines are fighting terrorists who booby trap dead bodies, fake death, wave white flags and then shoot to kill, use mosques to conduct deadly attacks, blah, blah, blah....... Where are the front page stories about those atrocities? But the liberal press will never hold the terrorists to any wartime standards of conduct, you can bet on that. After all, according to the libs, these are Arab George Washingtons trying to free their country from Imperalist America! Rubbish!!!

 

[KarlMarx]

Here we go again, is right!

It is interesting that when something like this happens, the libs have a huge display of histionics and start on their obsessive-compulsive ranting and raving "Haliburton! Haliburton! Bush lied! Bush lied! The UN! The UN! No WMDs! Abu Ghraib! Abu Ghraib!....." and so on ad nauseum.

But......

When one of our own gets whacked .... then it's another round of the Liberal Psychoanalysis and Alibi Makers Society .... "The Arabs are angry with us because of the Crusades.... We have no right being in their holy lands.... If Kerry were president, he would know what to do..... They aren't ready for democracy.... If we only talked to them to see what is making them so angry...." blah blah blah ad nauseum

I have to ask .... just whose side are these idiots on? No, I didn't ask whose side that they THINK they're on. If I asked that they'll say that they support the troops or some other similar pablum.

But let me ask you....whose side are you on? Does the enemy use your arguments against the United States? (Yes) Does your incessent one sided coverage of the war demoralize our troops and make their job more difficult? (yes) Do your movies, talking points, actions and so on find their way into the mouths of the mobs of hoodlums and thugs on the "Arab Street"? (yes)... Do your actions, make the job of our country's leaders in prosecuting the war, supporting the war, getting funding for the war, getting cooperation from other countries, much much much more difficult? (yes) Are some of the rallies, protest marches, anti-war organizations that you participate in or are a member of funded by shadowy groups that are merely fronts for communist regimes? (yes)

By your actions are you judged, the result is all that matters. Intentions mean nothing.

 

[CSM]

The whole process of preparing to go into battle is dehumanizing. Once a person has turned over their power to the military establishment it begins. The complete surrender of self control/guidance is absolutely required and complete acceptance of the commands of superior officers takes its place. I guess this is a necessary factor to assure the "chain of command".
The process of boot camp and isolation from the outside while preparing for deployment, actually is similar to the tactics of cults and brainwashing.
We shouldnt necessarily be surprised when our troops commit atrocities like abu grahib or this incident, or in the past like MyLai(????sp) in Vietnam, we should be understanding of their fear and situation. We know the face of war, and we should know it is very ugly. Whats the count in Fallujah , 38 US troops dead, over 70 wounded and hundreds of Iraqis, men women and children all dead. DEAD DEAD DEAD

Pure, unadulterated bullshit. There is no other way to say it.

I have been in many battles, some fiercer than others. There is no "complete surrender of self control" or self guidance nor is it "required". The "we" you speak of as knowing the face of war is horse puckey too. I know the face of war and I can tell you that unless you have been there, you have NO FRIKKIN IDEA what war is about or what it is like. US soldiers are not automatons or berserkers. Many of you who have never been there like to pose yourselves as so morally superior...you have no clue as to what you would do in a similar situation. Most soldiers don't know for certain what they will do in any given situation until they are in it. Hopefully, basic training and predeployment training will be sufficient to ensure their survival and help their fellow soldiers survive too.

You folks who are so morally superior to those soldiers in combat can take your holier than though attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine.

 

[sagegirl]

Pure, unadulterated bullshit. There is no other way to say it.

I have been in many battles, some fiercer than others. There is no "complete surrender of self control" or self guidance nor is it "required". The "we" you speak of as knowing the face of war is horse puckey too. I know the face of war and I can tell you that unless you have been there, you have NO FRIKKIN IDEA what war is about or what it is like. US soldiers are not automatons or berserkers. Many of you who have never been there like to pose yourselves as so morally superior...you have no clue as to what you would do in a similar situation. Most soldiers don't know for certain what they will do in any given situation until they are in it. Hopefully, basic training and predeployment training will be sufficient to ensure their survival and help their fellow soldiers survive too.

You folks who are so morally superior to those soldiers in combat can take your holier than though attitude and shove it where the sun don't shine.

I absolutely disagree with you..... citing your experience in the military and war in defense of your actions is somewhat self serving. The discovery or realization that one has been "used" is a very difficult process. Unfortunately brainwashing is NECESSARY to turn civilians into soldiers . My Dad was a co-pilot in WWII, among other missions, he flew bombing missions over Polesti, protected by the Tuskegee Airmen. (He had told my Mom that you didnt ask how many missions have you flown ....it was how many times you been to Polesti). He completed his obligation of missions and signed on for extra time mostly because he didnt want to be sent to Japan. He wasnt one to brag about war. My Dad served with honor, integrity, and a sense of duty. I have numerous uncles who served , one received the Distinguished Flying Cross as a flight engineer who saved his crew.
I know lots of Vietnam era vets. and their stories. Their sadness.
Some things I will always remember my Dad commenting about was his training. (He was glad to be in the Air Corps because he was home at the base after a mission, relatively safe from the war. ) He spoke of the regimentation, the absolute surrender of yourself to your command (much like instrument flying, that you did not question the instruments....you did not question authority or orders.) There were three acceptable answers to a question: Yes Sir, No Sir, and No excuse Sir. He never spoke of this training critically, but as a matter of necessity.
But he was smart enough to know that he was a tool of war. He always hoped that we would as a society find a better way to resolve our problems/differences. I think that is where I come from, that war dehumanizes all of us and, most of all ,the individuals who are directly doing the fighting and killing and dying.
Your comment "pure unadulterated bullshit" is an insult to anyone who believes in alternatives to war and the pursuit of higher goals for humankind. You really need to get over it, find someone to counsel you. I am sorry for you.

 

[Merlin1047]

I absolutely disagree with you..... citing your experience in the military and war in defense of your actions is somewhat self serving.

Lady, you need to get a grip. How dare you challenge someone who has actually been there when all of your "experience" amounts to listening to the accounts of those who have?

I'm with CSM on this one. You don't know what you're talking about so I suggest that you refrain from challenging the opinion of someone who does.

 

[CSM]

I absolutely disagree with you..... citing your experience in the military and war in defense of your actions is somewhat self serving. The discovery or realization that one has been "used" is a very difficult process. Unfortunately brainwashing is NECESSARY to turn civilians into soldiers . My Dad was a co-pilot in WWII, among other missions, he flew bombing missions over Polesti, protected by the Tuskegee Airmen. (He had told my Mom that you didnt ask how many missions have you flown ....it was how many times you been to Polesti). He completed his obligation of missions and signed on for extra time mostly because he didnt want to be sent to Japan. He wasnt one to brag about war. My Dad served with honor, integrity, and a sense of duty. I have numerous uncles who served , one received the Distinguished Flying Cross as a flight engineer who saved his crew.
I know lots of Vietnam era vets. and their stories. Their sadness.
Some things I will always remember my Dad commenting about was his training. (He was glad to be in the Air Corps because he was home at the base after a mission, relatively safe from the war. ) He spoke of the regimentation, the absolute surrender of yourself to your command (much like instrument flying, that you did not question the instruments....you did not question authority or orders.) There were three acceptable answers to a question: Yes Sir, No Sir, and No excuse Sir. He never spoke of this training critically, but as a matter of necessity.
But he was smart enough to know that he was a tool of war. He always hoped that we would as a society find a better way to resolve our problems/differences. I think that is where I come from, that war dehumanizes all of us and, most of all ,the individuals who are directly doing the fighting and killing and dying.
Your comment "pure unadulterated bullshit" is an insult to anyone who believes in alternatives to war and the pursuit of higher goals for humankind. You really need to get over it, find someone to counsel you. I am sorry for you.

No need to feel sorry for me. I am just fine. I never described any of my actions nor did I defend them. I can tell you that I will never defend them to the likes of you. As for insulting those who believe in alternatives to war...so be it. While those folks are screwing around playing kissy kissy with the bad guys, some one like me is making sure they dont slit their throat.

Your latest post is exactly what I expected from you. As I said, take your holier than though attitude and put it where the sun dont shine. You have absolutely NO right to judge me or my actions. You sit there warm and comfy and make profound statements about the loftier ideals of humankind. It is through the blood of others that you enjoy that luxury. You live in a nice insular little world where the "face of war" as you put it is something you see on TV; those soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines have to stare death in the eye. Someday, reality could smack you right in the butt and some terrorist could scribble his pontification on the ideals he believes in on the walls of your house EXCEPT for the fact that there are a bunch of lowlife military men out there keeping him from doing it.

I am a "VietNam era Vet" and I know far more vets than you will ever meet. Dont even try that route with me.

 

[manu1959]

sgaegirl,

have you ever played sports at any kind of "high" level?

 

[sagegirl]

No need to feel sorry for me. I am just fine. I never described any of my actions nor did I defend them. I can tell you that I will never defend them to the likes of you. As for insulting those who believe in alternatives to war...so be it. While those folks are screwing around playing kissy kissy with the bad guys, some one like me is making sure they dont slit their throat.

Your latest post is exactly what I expected from you. As I said, take your holier than though attitude and put it where the sun dont shine. You have absolutely NO right to judge me or my actions. You sit there warm and comfy and make profound statements about the loftier ideals of humankind. It is through the blood of others that you enjoy that luxury. You live in a nice insular little world where the "face of war" as you put it is something you see on TV; those soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines have to stare death in the eye. Someday, reality could smack you right in the butt and some terrorist could scribble his pontification on the ideals he believes in on the walls of your house EXCEPT for the fact that there are a bunch of lowlife military men out there keeping him from doing it.

I am a "VietNam era Vet" and I know far more vets than you will ever meet. Dont even try that route with me.

I am ,unfortunately I am sure ,from your point of view, one of the people that you are protecting when you go off to war. I would not for a moment minimize the sacrifices you make. I am in fact more empathetic than you understand . I am quite strong, I am not fearful, I am not comfortable. So dont talk to me about getting smacked in the butt. I have more than I need and I am ever so lucky. I do not take a grain of this for granted. I have studied and am somewhat accomplished in self defense. It is the first and foremost requirement in this discipline to know when to use it. I am well prepared to take care of myself, or die. So dont go off to war to protect me.. ...unless you are doing it to protect my right to speak my mind. And if thats the case, then dont tell me to go shove it where the sun dont shine.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I am ,unfortunately I am sure ,from your point of view, one of the people that you are protecting when you go off to war. I would not for a moment minimize the sacrifices you make. I am in fact more empathetic than you understand . I am quite strong, I am not fearful, I am not comfortable. So dont talk to me about getting smacked in the butt. I have more than I need and I am ever so lucky. I do not take a grain of this for granted. I have studied and am somewhat accomplished in self defense. It is the first and foremost requirement in this discipline to know when to use it. I am well prepared to take care of myself, or die. So dont go off to war to protect me.. ...unless you are doing it to protect my right to speak my mind. And if thats the case, then dont tell me to go shove it where the sun dont shine.

sagegirl, the right to speak your mind includes taking the criticism your remarks provoke.

 

[CSM]

I am ,unfortunately I am sure ,from your point of view, one of the people that you are protecting when you go off to war. I would not for a moment minimize the sacrifices you make. I am in fact more empathetic than you understand . I am quite strong, I am not fearful, I am not comfortable. So dont talk to me about getting smacked in the butt. I have more than I need and I am ever so lucky. I do not take a grain of this for granted. I have studied and am somewhat accomplished in self defense. It is the first and foremost requirement in this discipline to know when to use it. I am well prepared to take care of myself, or die. So dont go off to war to protect me.. ...unless you are doing it to protect my right to speak my mind. And if thats the case, then dont tell me to go shove it where the sun dont shine.

Accomplished in self defense huh? Ever face someone who REALLY intends to kill you? Someone who's only focus in life is to see YOU dead? Stood there and truly believed that the next few seconds could be your last?

Your right to speak is all well and good, but be prepared to harvest the results. As for going off to war for YOU, like it or not, I did and will again if I have to. It is not your right to free speech I am telling you to shove, it is your arrogance.

 

[Adam's Apple]

Sagegirl, I want to hear your answer to CSM's questions: "Ever face someone who REALLY intends to kill you? Someone who's only focus in life is to see YOU dead? Stood there and truly believed that the next few seconds could be your last?" What would you do?

Also, I would like to hear what those "alternatives to war" are that you think are available to those currently dealing with the terrorists and terrorism. These are "talking points" I surely want to hear. Don't you think the powers that be have thought of everything you have thought of/heard and much, much more, or is it your thought that they have not had an intelligent thought cross their minds in the past four years?

 

[Merlin1047]

Okay, I've had the chance to take a few deep breaths and count to 1000 several times. I've conquered my urge to give you the really "colorful" reply that your attitude deserves.

I am ,unfortunately I am sure ,from your point of view, one of the people that you are protecting when you go off to war.

You start right off with this insulting belittlement of the service of a veteran by suggesting that he somehow begrudges the fact that his service also protected you. Again you put your ignorance on display. As soldiers we seek to protect the nation as a whole. We do not stop to consider the fact that we often protect the very people who hold us in contempt or wish us ill.

I would not for a moment minimize the sacrifices you make.. . . I have studied and am somewhat accomplished in self defense. . . . It is the first and foremost requirement in this discipline to know when to use it. I am well prepared to take care of myself, or die.

This statement is a completely ridiculous contradiction. You state that you do not seek to minimize the sacrifices of a soldier, yet you turn right around and claim your exercise in board-breaking kung-fu (or whatever) to be the equivalent of combat. That may not be THE most asinine statement I have ever read, but it certainly ranks among the top ten. When you have had the pleasure of watching tracers zip past your head or you have had to look down the business end of an automatic weapon, then your opinions on this subject will bear some weight.

I am well prepared to take care of myself, or die.

Well, that puts you one up on me. I'm not prepared to die. And quite frankly, I think you're kidding yourself.

So dont go off to war to protect me.. ...unless you are doing it to protect my right to speak my mind. And if thats the case, then dont tell me to go shove it where the sun dont shine.

Well unfortunately, as soldiers, we don't get to pick and choose the reasons we go off to war. Our government sends us and we pack our stuff and go. Yes, the military protects everyone's rights, including yours, to spout off as you choose. What you seem to forget is that CSM has a perfect right to tell you what you can do with your opinion. You see, that too is one of the things for which we fight. Yet you libs seem to forget that part of the equation.

I'm not going to tell you to "stuff it" or anything like that. I'm going to suggest that you consider the distinct possibility that you have made a total fool of yourself and that you owe CSM an apology.

 

[sagegirl]

Accomplished in self defense huh? Ever face someone who REALLY intends to kill you? Someone who's only focus in life is to see YOU dead? Stood there and truly believed that the next few seconds could be your last?

Your right to speak is all well and good, but be prepared to harvest the results. As for going off to war for YOU, like it or not, I did and will again if I have to. It is not your right to free speech I am telling you to shove, it is your arrogance.

I responded to what I considered an arrogant attitude on your part, that somehow you have more credibility than I do. (arrogance: over-bearing pride or self-importance) Your comment.... like it or not, I did and will again if I have to....is arrogance. You make it sould like you are saving the world .....talk about overbearing pride...

I do not resent a thoughtful or compassionate opinion that disagrees with what I think. I can stand up to criticism, it comes with the territory.

To answer your question...ever been face to face with someone who really intends to kill you, I was, or at least the person wanted to kill me. I distracted and disarmed the person, and the individual served time. If I ever see him again in my lifetime, I would probably kill him. For obvious reasons, or maybe not, I will not discuss this in any detail. People die in the streets everyday here at home. Senseless and tragic deaths. So all the wars and all the killing has not made us safe.
So I am not an innocent out here, a wussie liberal, an arrogant bitch. I consider myself so very lucky to have the life I live, I love my family, my husband, my immediate friends and have learned to tolerate just about everybody else.

 

[sagegirl]

Sagegirl, I want to hear your answer to CSM's questions: "Ever face someone who REALLY intends to kill you? Someone who's only focus in life is to see YOU dead? Stood there and truly believed that the next few seconds could be your last?" What would you do?

Also, I would like to hear what those "alternatives to war" are that you think are available to those currently dealing with the terrorists and terrorism. These are "talking points" I surely want to hear. Don't you think the powers that be have thought of everything you have thought of/heard and much, much more, or is it your thought that they have not had an intelligent thought cross their minds in the past four years?

I am pro peace not anti war.....by that I mean, you do have to defend yourself, I felt the need to defend ourselves as a nation against those responsible for 9-11. I have posted my feelings regarding the administrations desire/need to link bin laden to saddam and thus our invasion of Iraq. I do not support the reasoning used to invade Iraq. I think the weapons inspectors were doing their job, I think the US intelligence that could not support the inspectors failure to finds wmd's was flawed ,(whether this was intentional or a gross failure of duty I dont know), Saddam is no hero of mine, and he was ruthless to his countrymen.

I support embargos, and enforcing embargos...programs like oil for food are a joke... a real lack of commitment...no one can exist in this world economy without the ability to trade, for food, for oil, for whatever. I support containment. I support rewards for the countries that strive to be free and fair to all their citizens. For those countries in turmoil and civil unrest, I am for suppporting their efforts to be free and equal. I feel however that they must fight the battle themselves......civil war and violence may be necessary, ugly as it is, but I do not believe that it is our duty to wage that war for them, in their name , for their own good. I would always offer up our vast resources to bring about negotiations and aid for efforts to resolve problems in a peaceful manner. There are many talented people who could offer up many solutions diplomatically.

 

[freeandfun1]

I am pro peace not anti war.....by that I mean, you do have to defend yourself, I felt the need to defend ourselves as a nation against those responsible for 9-11. I have posted my feelings regarding the administrations desire/need to link bin laden to saddam and thus our invasion of Iraq. I do not support the reasoning used to invade Iraq. I think the weapons inspectors were doing their job, I think the US intelligence that could not support the inspectors failure to finds wmd's was flawed ,(whether this was intentional or a gross failure of duty I dont know), Saddam is no hero of mine, and he was ruthless to his countrymen.

I support embargos, and enforcing embargos...programs like oil for food are a joke... a real lack of commitment...no one can exist in this world economy without the ability to trade, for food, for oil, for whatever. I support containment. I support rewards for the countries that strive to be free and fair to all their citizens. For those countries in turmoil and civil unrest, I am for suppporting their efforts to be free and equal. I feel however that they must fight the battle themselves......civil war and violence may be necessary, ugly as it is, but I do not believe that it is our duty to wage that war for them, in their name , for their own good. I would always offer up our vast resources to bring about negotiations and aid for efforts to resolve problems in a peaceful manner. There are many talented people who could offer up many solutions diplomatically.

The problem with "containment" is that WE (the USA) and GB were the ONLY ones contributing to his containment. WE were the ones having our fighters shot at, WE were the ones carrying the burden while Sadman used his Oil-for-Food (OFF) money to support those carrying out acts of terrorism.

You say you have an open mind and therefore, just as I implore all my liberal friends/aquaintences to do, I highly suggest you read the book "The Third Terrorist" by Jayna Davis. Open your mind, get a different perspective and then tell me it wasn't right to shut that bastard down.

 

[drac]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1117/p01s02-woiq.html

here we go again

 

[Merlin1047]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1117/p01s02-woiq.html

here we go again

From the CS article you sourced:

"Yet in the heat of the moment Saturday, a young marine did severe damage to the image of a precise and clean assault that the US had hoped to project from Fallujah. The footage has already become more fodder on jihadi websites peddling the conspiracy theory that the US is on a crusade against global Islam. It also caused cringing in the capitals of US friends and allies. Tuesday, UN Human Rights chief Louise Arbour called for an investigation of alleged US abuses in Fallujah."

I really get sick of crap like this. "precise and clean assault". When the hell will the media and the damn politicians come to realize that THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!!

If our damn government could not manage a "precise and clean assault" on the Branch Davidians, how the hell do you expect us to do that when attacking a whole damn city?

Let the arabs spew and sputter. The best thing we can do is make those assholes understand we're not messing around. If you're our enemy, you're going to die. The thing which emboldens arab terrorists is LACK of action, not shooting some dumb bastard in the head.

***end of rant***

***serious raving to follow***

 

[CSM]

I responded to what I considered an arrogant attitude on your part, that somehow you have more credibility than I do. (arrogance: over-bearing pride or self-importance) Your comment.... like it or not, I did and will again if I have to....is arrogance. You make it sould like you are saving the world .....talk about overbearing pride...

I do not resent a thoughtful or compassionate opinion that disagrees with what I think. I can stand up to criticism, it comes with the territory.

To answer your question...ever been face to face with someone who really intends to kill you, I was, or at least the person wanted to kill me. I distracted and disarmed the person, and the individual served time. If I ever see him again in my lifetime, I would probably kill him. For obvious reasons, or maybe not, I will not discuss this in any detail. People die in the streets everyday here at home. Senseless and tragic deaths. So all the wars and all the killing has not made us safe.
So I am not an innocent out here, a wussie liberal, an arrogant bitch. I consider myself so very lucky to have the life I live, I love my family, my husband, my immediate friends and have learned to tolerate just about everybody else.

Bad news for you: when it comes to combat, I DO HAVE MORE CREDIBILITY THAN YOU. Not brag, just fact. The fact is I have gone to war several times, and while it wasn't for you specifically, it sure as hell wasn't for nobody or to satisfy some inner blood lust. While all the wars and all the killing have not made us safe, niether has all the whining and all ass kissing of those who wish to do harm to others.

I have more bad news for you. I too love my family and my friends and my country. I choose to do something about it.

 

[CSM]

Furthermore, for sagegirl and others who think soldiers become some sort of subhuman because of their military training, you are wrong. Soldiers have more disciplinme, more creativity, and a heck of a lot more common sense than most.