New light on the nature of Apollo's light

[DaveB]

We know that the space ship's hull was 3 inch aluminum which provided zero shielding against radiation poisoning present in energetic protons.

What utter twaddle. The C/SM hull was rated at 8g cm^2.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/tnD7080RadProtect.pdf

Actually, the energetic protons would have became active x-rays after making contact with aluminum.

Now you are talking out of your butt. The word you are talking about is bremsstrahlung and protons are far less likely to produce this than electrons. Low mass materials such as aluminium and plastic are the perfect ways to minimise occurrences of bremsstrahlung.

https://policies.anu.edu.au/ppl/download/ANUP_001188

Are we to deduce that some proton ions are created with less charge than other protons?

It's nothing to do with the charge of the particle, it's the energy the particle contains!

And then instead of speaking about the x-rays that deliver the radiation poisoning..

Please quote strengths, occurrences and directions of these deadly x-rays. Normal solar x-rays are classed as soft and are stopped by paper. Those emitted during CMEs are not magical Omni directional waves

Anything?

 

[Days]

Debunking idiocy.

it goes on forever.

make short idiotic attacks with pure nonsense and keep jumping to new attacks.

that way the trail leads on forever and nothing but confusion is left behind.

I didn't come here to play your idiotic game. It's not as though you guys have the market cornered on debunking. It is all over the internet. I came to try and find someone intelligent to carry on discourse with. So far, all I've come across is a pack of jackals looking to rip up some flesh. I'm not going to sit here and chase all your Lies, I already know they go on forever.

How about responding to the ideas in the opening post? How about holding a conversation? You aren't interested in that nor will you go there. Well, I'm not interested in your idiotic fight game. I've already got a list of posters that are doing this over and over.

I'm done with you, all of you.

 

[DaveB]

heat cannot radiate without molecules??? That's not even English, it makes no sense, and I sure didn't say it.

You said this:

In reality, it doesn't matter how much you roll the craft, it produces no cooling, there's no heat exchange with space, there's no molecules to produce heat exchange.

That is none too bright. Addressed here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/consp...e-nature-of-apollo-s-light-2.html#post7736041

It is a measurement of dosage. I think this is what you are twisting up...

Human tissue, not space radiation. Duh.

major flares had hundreds of REM. (A Rad is the basic measurement of radiation; REM = Rad Equivalent Man... it refers to a dose of radiation resulting in one Rad deposited over the entire surface of a man or instrument or dog or whatever gets the dosage).

You just demonstrate you know nothing about the subject with every post. Solar flares are not measured in RADs/REMs or anything other than their energetic power(flux). The ability of this energy to cause radiation absorbtion is not some arbitrary amount. It depends on the density of an object, the shielding of that object, the distance of that object from the source and the power of the actual solar event. Clueless!

Radiative flux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing mysterious about unmanned craft not being killed by lethal radiation. Radiation is lethal to humans, not metal. Satellites, however, are messed up by the Van Allen belts, that's why they orbit above or below the magnetosphere. (That would be due to the magnetism more than the radiation.)

Sheesh. The ELECTRONICS are sure affected by energetic particles! And now you claim the magnetic field is more harmful than the charged particles?? How do you think they mapped it in the first place?

The ISS flies at roughly 250 miles up, where there is no radiation, which is amazingly stupid of you to point out...

You know nothing about this do you! The ISS passes through an area of the Van Allen Belts daily. People on board the ISS spend months there routinely, but oddly they are not dropping dead. The Apollo C/SM was rated at 8 g/cm^2, the ISS is rated at 13g/cm^2.

I'm guessing you didn't know any of this

South Atlantic Anomaly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm done with you.

Good. All you are doing is flinging insults and showing everybody that you know how to use google. Understanding what you are reading and being able to quantify it, that's a little harder to do isn't it

 

[DaveB]

Debunking idiocy.

You said it!

make short idiotic attacks with pure nonsense and keep jumping to new attacks.

that way the trail leads on forever and nothing but confusion is left behind.

I didn't come here to play your idiotic game. It's not as though you guys have the market cornered on debunking. It is all over the internet. I came to try and find someone intelligent to carry on discourse with. So far, all I've come across is a pack of jackals looking to rip up some flesh. I'm not going to sit here and chase all your Lies, I already know they go on forever.

How about responding to the ideas in the opening post? How about holding a conversation? You aren't interested in that nor will you go there. Well, I'm not interested in your idiotic fight game. I've already got a list of posters that are doing this over and over.

I'm done with you, all of you.

Flouncety flounce.

Please quote strengths, occurrences and directions of these deadly x-rays.

Anything really. Not one astro-physicist has any problem with Apollo short duration flight and radiation. Go and ask one if you want some education.

 

[DaveB]

How about responding to the ideas in the opening post?

I didn't want to because it is a whole barrage of fail, but if you insist.

Stars send out their light via a tried and true method: radiation.

Should I just say well done for quoting the blatantly obvious? Ok. Well done.

The light is carried in the star's rays; aka, electromagnetic waves.

Well done.

Our own sun's rays have not changed in nature for an awful long time, but we have only recently begun to understand what those rays consist of and how they act upon materials and humans in the void of space.

Not so well done. EM waves were discovered in the 19th century.

Slowly, the new understanding is leaking into the media, and if you read carefully, you are beginning to realize that the sun has its own kind of "weather" which consists of surface storms (sun spots) that flare in explosions of light.

"Leaking into the media" being fully published peer reviewed articles and thousands of web sites.

Flares are unique occurrences, they are different from radiation sent forth by the magnetic explosions of a coronal mass ejection.

Coronal Weather Report: CMEs and Flares (Page 1)

Flares are local events and very often confused with mass ejections - for the purposes of any discussion intense flares are most often referred to as CMEs.

A CME has heavy ions of energetic protons and it seems to lumber along at speeds of one to four million miles per hour.

Nonsense. A CME is made up of plasma consisting of electrons/protons and sometimes heavier elements.

Coronal mass ejection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Coronal mass ejections reach velocities between 20km/s to 3200km/s with an average speed of 489km/s, based on SOHO/LASCO measurements between 1996 and 2003."

A flare OTOH, has energetic electrons, and travels at the speed of light, being an explosion of light, it is purely sunlight by composition.

Gibberish. Electrons have mass, light does not. Mass CANNOT reach light speed. Go and read the theory of relativity

So for starters, when you read about major and minor flares that took place during the Apollo missions, realize that the "major" flares were more likely CME's ... while the "minor" flares were actually flares.

Fail. Minor flares have lower energetic power and have very little coverage. Major flares last long enough that they MAY head towards earth. Very rarely will we get a major flare that would be lethal, accumulatively over a month in space a person may get sick.

The CME's might have taken a day and a half up to 3 days to reach the earth and moon, while the flares arrived in ten minutes, the same as all sunlight does.

Complete rubbish. Massless light will not carry particle radiation. Mass cannot travel at light speed.

What we are learning today is that both the CMEs and the flares contain deadly radiation poisoning, that even a single solar flare could kill you, and that while you might survive one and even two if you are lucky, you would never survive three in a row

They may well kill you if unprotected, but behind aluminium shielding the dose would be unlikely to be fatal. That would be on an X-class flare.

and the five that happened during Apollo 17's flight at solar maximum, would have meant certain death; never mind the four "major" flares that also took place during those two weeks they pretended to be visiting the moon.

There were more than 5(none classed as major), but they were neither X-class or came anywhere near the Earth. In between Apollo 16 and 17 there was a major x-class CME that could well have killed anybody hit by it.

The energetic particles contained in solar flares are also caught up in the earth's magnetosphere, where the electrons tend to travel towards the poles and produce the aurora lights in the northern and southern skies.

Electrons and protons.

But the protons remained stuck in bands of radiation and die a slow death of five to ten years before losing their charge.

Completely wrong.

Van Allen radiation belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The belts contain energetic electrons forming the outer belt and a combination of protons and electrons forming the inner belt. In addition, the radiation belts contain lesser amounts of other nuclei, such as alpha particles. The belts pose a hazard to satellites, which must protect their sensitive components with adequate shielding if their orbit spends significant time in the radiation belts."

Hence, flying through the Van Allen belts at solar maximum is another sure fire way to receive a large dose of radiation...

IF they went through the denser regions - they didn't.
IF they were unprotected - they weren't.
IF they stayed any degree of time - they didn't.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuH4rxda3Z4]TLI Orbit Slice View - YouTube[/ame]

and energetic particles carry a much higher charge than the man made radiation we dole out for x-rays.

That is more gibberish. The problem is not the charge but the flux and relative attenuation. You can't compare the two.

Energetic electrons are ten times the electron volt administered by our x-ray machines, while energetic protons are 100-1000 times higher in charge.

WHAT energetic electrons are ten times the x-ray level? This is just more made up B/S. Some particles in the VAB may well be that strong, the solar wind massively reduced during solar maximum(!) is nowhere near the level of even a normal chest x-ray.

Hence, flying through the Van Allen belts at solar maximum is a deadly affair all its own, because those protons are brand new and they are buzzing at 1000 times the electron volt charge of man made x-rays.

You said that before. It's not a given that they are "brand new", they are predominantly electrons and the "1000 times" bit is made up crap.

IF they went through the denser regions - they didn't.
IF they were unprotected - they weren't.
IF they stayed any degree of time - they didn't.

All four of Apollo 17's "major" flares would have been caught up in the Van Allen belts and awaiting their return to earth; and lets nor forget that one of the centuries biggest CMEs happened just prior to Apollo 17 launch, so it was captured in the radiation belts and pouring into that flight as well.... supposedly.

You said that before as well. It's still totally wrong. The highlighted bit was the only danger to Apollo.

In reality, none of the Apollo flights received any radiation at all. The dosimeters all read one REM or even less than one REM for every single Apollo mission.

Well done!

IOW, they were all near earth orbits in the same protective range that the space station maintains; roughly 200 miles up.

That is a bare assertion with only your big fail post to back it up. Rejected.

Manned flight has never gone beyond that range. Neither are we able to do so.

Bare assertion again. Rejected.

A thin layer of gold does not protect against radiation poisoning on earth, let alone the energetic radiation poisoning of the sun's rays.

Strawman. An 8g cm^2 hull protects just fine. Ask any space radiation expert.

Manned flight to the moon or Mars is nationalistic propaganda, not honest science.

Bare assertion again.

Radiation shielding requires a very dense element, remember, you are trying to block a sub-atomic particle, and those dense elements like gold and lead are also the heaviest elements we work with; meanwhile, space craft is made of super light materials on account of fuel and payload and overcoming the earth's gravity. So, blocking energetic particles in space is a non-starter. The entire capsule would need something like six feet thick gold to fully protect it's occupants... and forget about windows because radiation poisoning would flood in through those and kill everyone inside.

That whole paragraph - for a major solar event correct. For short term missions not at all.

The days of pretending that energetic particles are innocuous radiation poisoning are far in our technological past. We've known better for a long, long time in terms of sun science. The biggest thing being studied by science today is the sun. Google sun science and you will immediately realize that we are studying it at every level of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. Today we know what those sun spots are, they are nuclear fission chain reaction explosions, and they are kicking out energetic particles that are extremely deadly to living flesh. Flares are just bigger explosions in a chain of explosions that carries on for hours on end. Even a small sun spot is an ongoing chain reaction nuclear explosion the size of planet earth... try to wrap your head around the scale of radiation poisoning being emitted by our sun's weather. That's what space beyond the earth's magnetosphere is filled with.

Once again, you make big claims but do not provide figures/citations/references - or anything at all.

None of the Apollo missions ever ventured into that deadly space.

Yes they did. They brought back 842lbs of lunar samples peer reviewed by a whole other branch of experts you also know nothing about.

EPIC FAIL. NEXT.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Debunking idiocy.

it goes on forever.

make short idiotic attacks with pure nonsense and keep jumping to new attacks.

that way the trail leads on forever and nothing but confusion is left behind.

I didn't come here to play your idiotic game. It's not as though you guys have the market cornered on debunking. It is all over the internet. I came to try and find someone intelligent to carry on discourse with. So far, all I've come across is a pack of jackals looking to rip up some flesh. I'm not going to sit here and chase all your Lies, I already know they go on forever.

How about responding to the ideas in the opening post? How about holding a conversation? You aren't interested in that nor will you go there. Well, I'm not interested in your idiotic fight game. I've already got a list of posters that are doing this over and over.

I'm done with you, all of you.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAp9sFVdERQ]Run away! - Monty Python and the Holy Grail - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Gamolon]

I'm done with you, all of you.

I would say "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out", but you're holding your ass in your hands because it's been handed to you.

See ya!

 

[Ernie S.]

You are beneath contempt. A total ignoramus who lives purely to argue and fight without any regard for truth. You attack posters with cuss words in personal messages and negative reputation and obviously only have one objective; to run them off the board. You were the first person to lead the attack on me and remain the most persistent. You don't seem to possess any natural understanding of any of the sciences and this isn't at all necessary for your weaponry, as David had no need of a battle shield or sword against Goliath... No, your weapons lie in your base and assinine approach to posters, attempting to bully, intimidate, irritate, and coerce with thug mannerisms and sewage ridicule. You are like some kind of mutant snake that rose from the idiocy of debunking, to come here and attack posters with total Lies, both about content, and position.

ernie, just reach up and flush yourself, already, end the misery.

Above I gave you real science. What you are spreading here is akin to Elvis sightings, end of the world predictions and grassy knoll shooters.
When confronted with facts and real science, you resort to attacks and then complain when someone rewards your stupidity with negative reputation.

Actually you might have me confused with someone else. I have refrained from vulgar language in my rep comments to you, at least on the last 2 occasions.

8/23:

Your theories might be better received at a forum that limits IQ to double digits.

Then, 2 days later after you assuming people living in the deep south are somehow less intelligent than those who buy into conspiracy theories, I negged you again with this comment:

here's some good ole boy neg rep for ya, son.

Today, I will likely resort to a mild expletive when I call you a lying sack of shit in your rep comment.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Damn, he never did tell me how many Rem or Rad he thought the ships /astronauts should have registered....

LOL

 

[Ernie S.]

snip

I'm done with you, all of you.

Promise?

 

[Days]

completely clueless

I'm in my mid 50's, I have a family, I have a full time job, I have hobbies, I don't have time for debunkers. I'll be happy to converse with intelligent people. I'm not wasting any more time on idiots who don't know the difference between carrying a position and arguing like small children.

 

[skookerasbil]

lol.....just go look at the pictures of Apollo 11 on the moon. Laughable......that lunar modular couldn't make it through a 100 degree hot day in New York much less sit on the moons surface. For christsakes, even the liftoff rocket exhausts are made out of fucking bicycle horns painted silver.

 

[Days]

you seem to not have a clue what the point was.

they bounced a LASER off the moon before Apollo missions so the mirrors are not necessary to bounce a LASER light.

you idiots just like to argue, you have no point to your arguments and you have no idea how to stay on topic.

This is all just stupid argument.

There's no point in me chasing down seven or eight posters tossing out non-stop idiotic argument, with no congruent thought process.

solar flares are created by sun spots, which are themselves surface storms composed of chain reaction fission explosions, ranging in size from the planet earth to the planet Jupiter, and lasting for hours. Every last explosion in those storms kick out energetic particles that are potent radiation poisoning for humans. We have no shielding to stop that, that's why we have never flown into it. Shielding requires dense materials, like gold or lead and space flight requires ultra light materials, like titanium or in the days of Apollo, aluminum. Ultra light materials do not shield against radiation. Windows in the craft let light in, they also would flood the craft with radiation. Manned flight into space beyond low earth orbit is a real challenge, one that we keep giving up on. But you idiots just want to argue, it wouldn't matter if I said the sky is blue or the grass is green, every sentence is just another opportunity for you to argue. You have no point to make of your own, you just come here to attack posts. Why should I waste my time on your pointless attacks? I doubt anyone does that for very long, hence, the reason you jumped on the new guy. When will you wake up and figure out what the forum is good for? try composing some ideas into a thoughtful position and presenting it and then discussing it... like men of science. join the intelligent community instead of attacking it like a pack of jackals.

 

[Moonglow]

Photos: 8 Moon-Landing Hoax Myths--Busted

 

[skookerasbil]

 

[skookerasbil]

 

[DaveB]

like men of science. join the intelligent community instead of attacking it like a pack of jackals.

Yes, why don't you. Electrons don't travel at light speed, heat radiates in a vacuum, not all flares are Omni directional, the VABs contain electrons and protons, there's so many more mistakes you made. I can see why you don't wish to discuss them. Now, you said you were done

 

[DaveB]

lol.....just go look at the pictures of Apollo 11 on the moon. Laughable......that lunar modular couldn't make it through a 100 degree hot day in New York much less sit on the moons surface. For christsakes, even the liftoff rocket exhausts are made out of fucking bicycle horns painted silver.

I do love an informed hoax believer

The outer sections of the LM your "lmao" highlights are lightweight micro meteorite shielding that is nothing to do with the structural integrity of the lunar module itself. Most of the outside foil and other coverings are for heat reflection.

The "liftoff rocket exhausts" you highlight are maneuvering thrusters. The Moon's surface was fairly cool because they landed early in the Lunar morning on all missions.

Do you have any more appeals to incredulity, or would you like me to point you to a long documentary showing how this purpose built machine was put together and all the challenges were solved to make it function as designed?

Question - why didn't the cagey hoaxers simply create a lovely looking craft to photograph, to avoid suspicion from dumb conspiracy theorists years later?

 

[Days]

heating up to 250 degrees is what the Apollo capsules would have done... I didn't make that up and you are an obvious liar, because that is a known fact... substantiated by NASA. Rolling the craft does not radiate out heat. Apollo was not equipped with radiation panels. Inside a closed environment, the cooling systems for the water and space suits would have added heat to the cabin, the only net cooling was from the release of compressed air. Your post is the one filled with pure bull shit, and you must know it is the case. That's why I abandoned this top post, there's a dozen dedicated Liars, lying their asses off, and they just make it up as they go.

Dosimeters were installed on the crafts and the spacesuits. NASA's record of their missions are what limits their flightpath to low earth orbit. The dosimeters on the crafts would have been bathed in solar wind radiation the entire time of every mission; the whole point of energetic particles is that they pack ten to 1000 fold the REM of man made radiation. These are facts. established facts. Yet, you idiots come here, and say total Lies, thinking that people will believe them?

Like I said, if Apollo missions had truly gone to the moon, those missions were flown at solar maximum and would have racked up hundreds at a minimum and easily thousands of REM for the later missions; so when every last one of them return with a single REM or two REM, none of them could possibly have left low earth orbit. end of story. No amount of lying can change it.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Maybe Days could give us a lesson in the different types of radiation and explain the van Allen belts...

And don't forget Bremsstrahlung.