Need help settling something...Read thread before polling

[sakinago]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

 

[Doc1]

Question, why not see what the founders had to say about it? No, State is NOT synonymous with Nation.

 

[night_son]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

A state [when/while] existing within which, the individual citizen is self-empowered to move freely without state coercion or otherwise likened governmental originating authoritative limitation. Many reasons exist for why a given state's governing body would find beneficial constraints placed on citizen movement within geographical borders. Our Second Amendment speaks to and provides preventive power for answering that question on behalf of the people.

The phrase "shall not be infringed" being grammatically, hierarchically dominant to the preceding phrases and clauses. Insertion of a single three letter conjunction could have clarified the whole Amendment from the get-go.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

One of my instructors who is a government misconduct attorney says that they used the term state back then to refer to the government. As it applies specifically to the 2nd Amendment, this has been debated ad naseum but the current SCOTUS rulings indicates that the 2nd Amendment protects the rights of individual citizens to keep & bear arms.

There are a couple of really knowledgeable members here on USMB -2aguy and C_Clayton_Jones just for starters. There are several more but these two I remember just off the top of my head.

 

[Rambunctious]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

Why don't you just make a point....we don't need a civics class....

 

[kaz]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

Neither and both. They are using it generally. Read it this way ...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a system of government n which the people are free, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[Doc1]

One of my instructors who is a government misconduct attorney says that they used the term state back then to refer to the government. As it applies specifically to the 2nd Amendment, this has been debated ad naseum but the current SCOTUS rulings indicates that the 2nd Amendment protects the rights of individual citizens to keep & bear arms.

There are a couple of really knowledgeable members here on USMB -2aguy and C_Clayton_Jones just for starters. There are several more but these two I remember just off the top of my head.

One of the biggest problems that exists in any Constitutional discussion is that one, or both sides to are remiss in that they REFUSE to take into account the context of the very things hey are discussing. The context reveals the intent and it is crucial to include that in any discussion. The only way it applies to "Government" is that it is referring to the "State" not the Federal Government.

 

[sakinago]

Question, why not see what the founders had to say about it? No, State is NOT synonymous with Nation.

Jesus, this better not be arguing about a slight difference in wording in the definitions between State and Nation. Just setting up a poll to clear something up. Nation is the closest synonym I could think of at the top of my head.

 

[sakinago]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

Neither and both. They are using it generally. Read it this way ...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a system of government n which the people are free, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yes, this was pretty much my explanation of the meaning of state in the argument in the other thread. I was quickly making this poll, and nation was the closest synonym I could think of that condensed what the State is. The other side of the argument claims it is in reference to the individual states themselves, not the nation as a whole. I’ve actually never heard anyone try to make that argument.

 

[Doc1]

Question, why not see what the founders had to say about it? No, State is NOT synonymous with Nation.

Jesus, this better not be arguing about a slight difference in wording in the definitions between State and Nation. Just setting up a poll to clear something up. Nation is the closest synonym I could think of at the top of my head.

I repeat, it goes to context. Historical context reveals the intent of not just the document, but the words selected for said document.

 

[S.J.]

"State" refers to the nation. For example, when someone is considered an "enemy of the state", it doesn't mean they're an "enemy of Ohio" (or some other state), it means they're an enemy of our nation.

 

[Doc1]

"State" refers to the nation. For example, when someone is considered an "enemy of the state", it doesn't mean they're an "enemy of Ohio" (or some other state), it means they're an enemy of our nation.

With all due respect it doesn't. I suggest you read Federalist 46 if you don't believe me.

 

[Cellblock2429]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

/—-/ Great question and one I’ve never heard before.

 

[Cellblock2429]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

A state [when/while] existing within which, the individual citizen is self-empowered to move freely without state coercion or otherwise likened governmental originating authoritative limitation. Many reasons exist for why a given state's governing body would find beneficial constraints placed on citizen movement within geographical borders. Our Second Amendment speaks to and provides preventive power for answering that question on behalf of the people.

The phrase "shall not be infringed" being grammatically, hierarchically dominant to the preceding phrases and clauses. Insertion of a single three letter conjunction could have clarified the whole Amendment from the get-go.

/—/ most people see the comma as a substitute for “and”
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State AND the right of the people to keep and bear Arms AND shall not be infringed.”

 

[whitehall]

When they created the greatest document in history the Founding Fathers were focused on the power of the federal government as opposed to the monarchy they had lived under. They wouldn't have used the term "a free state" to define a geographical area. The "free state" was a free state of being..

 

[Doc1]

When they created the greatest document in history the Founding Fathers were focused on the power of the federal government as opposed to the monarchy they had lived under. They wouldn't have used the term "a free state" to define a geographical area. The "free state" was a free state of being..

Finally.

 

[Stormy Daniels]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

God is love.
Love is blind.
Stevie Wonder is blind.
Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

A good many of the idiots here will equivocate different contexts of "state" and therefore fail to understand your question. But you are basically inviting that equivocation by presenting a false dilemma and suggesting it changes the meaning.

When the Framers used the term "a free state" they meant exactly what it said: a free state. No distinction between a federal state like Virginia, or a federal nation-state like the United States is necessary. In both cases, the sentence retains the same meaning and the same truth value.

 

[Doc1]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

God is love.
Love is blind.
Stevie Wonder is blind.
Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

A good many of the idiots here will equivocate different contexts of "state" and therefore fail to understand your question. But you are basically inviting that equivocation by presenting a false dilemma and suggesting it changes the meaning.

When the Framers used the term "a free state" they meant exactly what it said: a free state. No distinction between a federal state like Virginia, or a federal nation-state like the United States is necessary. In both cases, the sentence retains the same meaning and the same truth value.

Oh golly, look how SMART you think you are!!!! Madison doesn't agree with you though, you lose.

 

[kaz]

In the text of the second amendment, what does the term “free State” refer too?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Does State refer to the individuals states like Virginia

Or is State synonymous with a nation

Neither and both. They are using it generally. Read it this way ...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a system of government n which the people are free, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yes, this was pretty much my explanation of the meaning of state in the argument in the other thread. I was quickly making this poll, and nation was the closest synonym I could think of that condensed what the State is. The other side of the argument claims it is in reference to the individual states themselves, not the nation as a whole. I’ve actually never heard anyone try to make that argument.

Whether government is a loose confederation of States, whether it's a central government where power is concentrated or anything in between, in that particular statement they were just saying whatever form it takes, without personal gun rights, we aren't going to be free. The militia was the people. It makes no sense that it would mean anything else. The people should be able to organize and defeat tyranny whether it's foreign or our own government

 

[S.J.]

"State" refers to the nation. For example, when someone is considered an "enemy of the state", it doesn't mean they're an "enemy of Ohio" (or some other state), it means they're an enemy of our nation.

With all due respect it doesn't. I suggest you read Federalist 46 if you don't believe me.

The U.S. Constitution does not apply to some states but not others. That makes no sense. And Federalist 46 is not saying that the right to keep and bear arms is left up to the states. If that were the case, no one living in Democrat controlled states would have the right to own a firearm.