Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays?

[Larkinn]

If I had 51% shares in Target, I would be DEMANDING that a "Merry Christmas" greeting not only be allowed but be encouraged in the United States where, like it or not, most people do celebrate Christmas and a majority profess some ties with the Christian faith. If the store was located in Istanbul or Jerusalem, then of course "Merry Christmas" would not be an appropriate greeting. I doubt those places have a significant Christmas sales season anyway. If for no other reason than commerical practicality, I would cater to the bulk of those buying Christmas gifts rather than worry about the very few who might take offense at a "Merry Christmas".

I don't quite get how catering to everyone who celebrates a holiday during this time period, as opposed to only Christians, is somehow bad? Christmas is included in the term "happy holidays".

Its a stupid debate, but I'd rather be inclusive than exclusive.

 

[eots]

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS WHO CAME UP WITH X-MASS....satan ? the Rothschild's ?

I mean happy holidays is one thing but xing out the Christ from Christmas but leaving in the "mass" part seems totally anti-Christ

 

[Foxfyre]

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS WHO CAME UP WITH X-MASS....satan ? the Rothschild's ?

I mean happy holidays is one thing but xing out the Christ from Christmas but leaving in the "mass" part seems totally anti-Christ

Well I'm sure some do use the "X" as a matter of convenience and some perhaps even to eliminate the Christ from Christmas.

But technically the "X" is the first letter in the Greek word for Christ, Χριστόc. The first two letters, Chi Rho, were formed into an anagram, the P over the X and came to be the common symbol for the Christ. The Emperor Constantine made it a household term by emblazoning it on his shields and banners. Not knowing the history (or the Greek), later Christian's adopted the X as a symbol of the Christian cross and Christ's own symbol and that's how it made its way into the more commonly used X-mas now. If you look at the X as a symbol of the cross instead of the letter "X", it works even for Christians.

 

[tigerbob]

You don't think that keeping businesses want to keep their employees happy for fiscal reasons?

I can't speak for all businesses, only the one I work in. And of course they want to keep their emplyees happy - for many reasons, including fiscal, but that is a somewhat wider point.

 

[Foxfyre]

Interesting parallel. If suddenly there was a call for St Patrick's Day to be called 'Green Day' or 'Irish Day', would that be a problem?

Or is it mainly due to the fact that Christmas is claimed in general as a public holiday that makes the difference (i.e. everyone feels some degree of ownership whether they are Christian or not)?

I think Christmas was made a national holiday because it was important to Christians and the majority of Americans were Christian. Going back to that 'keep your employees happy thing', it simply made sense to allow people some time off work to celebrate it. But because of the First Amendment, all people are included in that and there is no mandate or expectation that anybody celebrate Christmas religiously or celebrate it at all.

The event has become increasingly secularized as well as retaining the religious imagery, symbolism, and traditions so there is actually something for everybody and anybody in it. The few folks who think it improper or sinful to celebrate it (Jehovah Witnesses et al) are as free to ignore it as anybody else is free to join in the fun while the non participants still can enjoy having the day off work.

The other part of your question re whether you could change the name of St. Patrick's day, of course you could eliminate the mythical/legendary figure from the celebration, but it wouldn't be St. Patrick's Day any more but would be replaced with something else. Just as you cannot remove the Christ from Christmas without making it something other than Christmas.

I think it unfortunate that anybody is offended by the peaceful, joyful, and legal celebration of somebody else.

 

[jillian]

I think it unfortunate that anybody is offended by the peaceful, joyful, and legal celebration of somebody else.

There we go... the good ole war on christmas verbiage. No one's "offended" by Christmas. Doesn't mean you guys are the only ones here. When it comes down to it, you want to go to Christian stores, that's fine. But most business will accommodate the largest possible number of people without being exclusive. Why should they exclude large percentages of people who shop? Jews spend money. Muslims spend money. Atheists spend money.

Sorry, I don't have any wish to be disrespectful, but it really isn't that big a deal.

 

[Foxfyre]

There we go... the good ole war on christmas verbiage. No one's "offended" by Christmas. Doesn't mean you guys are the only ones here. When it comes down to it, you want to go to Christian stores, that's fine. But most business will accommodate the largest possible number of people without being exclusive. Why should they exclude large percentages of people who shop? Jews spend money. Muslims spend money. Atheists spend money.

Sorry, I don't have any wish to be disrespectful, but it really isn't that big a deal.

No it's not a big deal, but the season is Christmas and Christians celebrate it because of the "Christ" that is the reason for the season. The large percentage of folks crowded into those stores and buying gifts in December are doing so in preparation for Christmas. Non-Christians who celebrate Christmas certainly do not worship the Christ, but "Merry Christmas" is still the appropriate greeting. Muslims and Atheists may or may not celebrate Christmas, but if they do, "Merry Christmas" is still the appropriate greeting.

If you don't want to say "Merry Christmas" don't. I'll cheerfully return your Happy Holidays or Happy Channukah or Happy Kwanza or just plain hello just the same. In countries where the large majority of the population does not celebrate Christmas, "Merry Christmas" would be an inappropriate greeting. In a country like ours in which the large majority of the population, Christian and non-Christian alike, do celebrate Christmas, "Merry Christmas" should be an appropriate greeting anywhere.

 

[Shogun]

If I had 51% shares in Target, I would be DEMANDING that a "Merry Christmas" greeting not only be allowed but be encouraged in the United States where, like it or not, most people do celebrate Christmas and a majority profess some ties with the Christian faith. If the store was located in Istanbul or Jerusalem, then of course "Merry Christmas" would not be an appropriate greeting. I doubt those places have a significant Christmas sales season anyway. If for no other reason than commerical practicality, I would cater to the bulk of those buying Christmas gifts rather than worry about the very few who might take offense at a "Merry Christmas".

If you feel so strongly then I suggest you start buying stock in Target. Your return investment will benefit or suffer accordingly. Celebrating the holiday does not preclude celebrating it how YOU, personally, choose to do so. Maybe christians of some sort don't feel the need to wear their dogma on their sleeve and cry like spoiled brats every snowy season because CLEARLY making the birth of your messiah is about as much Taking the Lords Name in Vane as it gets? Maybe the christian message of messianic salvation becomes just a bit more farcical every year you force the issue at chain department stores? Do you think your god would rather you allow free will to the masses or equate his name and ideals with shopping days during a holiday so far removed from jesus that your biggest complaint is the way a free market diminishes the exclusivity of a modern hallmark holiday?


Again, if THIS is the epitome of christian faith these days then stop blaming secularists when the cartoon nature of modern xmas isn't mandated a universal law among a varied American people.

 

[Shogun]

No it's not a big deal, but the season is Christmas and Christians celebrate it because of the "Christ" that is the reason for the season. The large percentage of folks crowded into those stores and buying gifts in December are doing so in preparation for Christmas. Non-Christians who celebrate Christmas certainly do not worship the Christ, but "Merry Christmas" is still the appropriate greeting. Muslims and Atheists may or may not celebrate Christmas, but if they do, "Merry Christmas" is still the appropriate greeting.

If you don't want to say "Merry Christmas" don't. I'll cheerfully return your Happy Holidays or Happy Channukah or Happy Kwanza or just plain hello just the same. In countries where the large majority of the population does not celebrate Christmas, "Merry Christmas" would be an inappropriate greeting. In a country like ours in which the large majority of the population, Christian and non-Christian alike, do celebrate Christmas, "Merry Christmas" should be an appropriate greeting anywhere.

Where in the bible even remotely suggests making such a hooplah out of jebus's b day anyway? There are many, MANY reasons to celebrate this season besides xmas. Hell, it's a holiday that was ripped off of winter solstice observations instead of any real evidence that dec. 25 ws the day Mary's placenta burst with the fruit of god's loins.

This non-issue is the result of a dominant group chaffing at the liberty of minority groups to break away from the seasonal status quo. No one is torching buildings by not greeting you with a mantra. Crying foul doesn't help or convince anyone to respect your opinion on how to properly observe winter holidays.

I guess there is always the bonfire option of controlling who says what...

 

[Foxfyre]

Where in the bible even remotely suggests making such a hooplah out of jebus's b day anyway? There are many, MANY reasons to celebrate this season besides xmas. Hell, it's a holiday that was ripped off of winter solstice observations instead of any real evidence that dec. 25 ws the day Mary's placenta burst with the fruit of god's loins.

This non-issue is the result of a dominant group chaffing at the liberty of minority groups to break away from the seasonal status quo. No one is torching buildings by not greeting you with a mantra. Crying foul doesn't help or convince anyone to respect your opinion on how to properly observe winter holidays.

I guess there is always the bonfire option of controlling who says what...

Edited to remove irritated response because it is Christmas and it is intended to be a time of joy.

Merry Christmas everybody. May you have a wonderful day.

 

[tigerbob]

Where in the bible even remotely suggests making such a hooplah out of jebus's b day anyway? There are many, MANY reasons to celebrate this season besides xmas. Hell, it's a holiday that was ripped off of winter solstice observations instead of any real evidence that dec. 25 ws the day Mary's placenta burst with the fruit of god's loins.

This non-issue is the result of a dominant group chaffing at the liberty of minority groups to break away from the seasonal status quo. No one is torching buildings by not greeting you with a mantra. Crying foul doesn't help or convince anyone to respect your opinion on how to properly observe winter holidays.

I guess there is always the bonfire option of controlling who says what...

Merry Christmas, Shogun, and a happy new year.

 

[Shattered]

Where in the bible even remotely suggests making such a hooplah out of jebus's b day anyway? There are many, MANY reasons to celebrate this season besides xmas. Hell, it's a holiday that was ripped off of winter solstice observations instead of any real evidence that dec. 25 ws the day Mary's placenta burst with the fruit of god's loins.

This non-issue is the result of a dominant group chaffing at the liberty of minority groups to break away from the seasonal status quo. No one is torching buildings by not greeting you with a mantra. Crying foul doesn't help or convince anyone to respect your opinion on how to properly observe winter holidays.

I guess there is always the bonfire option of controlling who says what...

Grinch.

Merry Christmas to you, too.

 

[mattskramer]

May whatever you believe in give you peace, love, and understanding this season of the year and throughout the years to come.

 

[eots]

Grinch.

Merry Christmas to you, too.

Special Report

Whose Christmas is it anyway?

Pagans celebrate the winter solstice, on December 21
Apparently, the season of good cheer did not start out as exclusively a Christian festival. According to Pagans, the early Christian church hijacked December 25 to celebrate the birth of Jesus because they saw that everyone was already having a good time and decided to take advantage of it.

Historical debate has been raging for a long time over the exact date of the birth of Jesus Christ, with estimates ranging from sometime in September to much later in February.

But the most important date in the festive season for Pagans is the winter solstice which always takes place around December 21. Called Yule, it is one of the traditional Celtic fire festivals and marks the return of the light after the longest night of the year.

The Pagan Federation, an umbrella group for Pagan organisations, describes Paganism as a spiritual nature-venerating belief system rooted in the ancient nature religions of the world.

The term of Pagan covers Wiccans, better known as witches, followers of the Northern Tradition who base their beliefs on Norse and old northern European beliefs, and also Druidism.

Christians and the more secular Christmas revellers may be relieved to learn that Pagans in Britain do not tend to cavort around holly bushes stark naked, or "skyclad", to celebrate their version of Christmas.

High Priestess

" We celebrate the rebirth of the sun, not the son," said Kate West, High Priestess of a Wiccan coven in Cheshire.



The oak tree symbolises the summer
On the night before the solstice she meets with the members of her coven, which number anywhere between 12 and 20, at a local beauty spot, to "enact the battle of the oak and the holly king."

The holly and the oak tree represent the two opposites of winter and summer respectively. Two male members of the coven wear crowns of either oak or holly and perform a ceremonial fight.

"Then we drum and chant to bring up the sun" said Ms West, whose coven, called the Hearth of Hecate, wears black robes for the occasion "because they don't show the dirt as much as white ones."



The holly bush represents the winter, it battles with the oak tree twice a year
Ms West said that the winter solstice was not the most important Pagan ceremony for Wiccans, that distinction goes to their new year at Hallowe'en.

She said that many Pagans do celebrate Christmas, but mainly for the children and "you are unlikely to see a nativity scene in a witches house".

Ms West, who is also an author on the subject of witchcraft, estimates that there are roughly 20,000 Pagans in Britain today and says it was a rapidly growing religion: "It's is the thinking person's religion ... with nobody to intercede between you and your god and no one to tell you what to think" she said.


"It's certainly too cold at this time of year to run about with no clothes on," said Dhyan Sargam, a witch from Berkshire.

He and his circle of about 20 warmly-dressed Pagans celebrate the festival of "light and healing" by holding a torchlit procession around a maze near Winchester.

They picked this area in particular because it is close to Twyford Down, the site of a contentious road bypass which some activists argued was environmentally damaging. When they get to the middle of the maze, they say a few healing prayers and go home and have a big party.

"For us we decided to have fireworks to mark the return of light. We took advice from the police because obviously people don't expect fireworks at this time of year ... we've done this now for years," he said.

"I'm not a Pagan because I'm anti-Christian, I'm a Pagan because I believe in a variety of Pagan deities." he said.

But, in common with many Christians, Mr Sargam said: "The commercialisation is not something we like ... to make this time of year an overtly commercial affair is inappropriate."

Eat, drink and be merry



Pagans light candles to welcome back the light
Seasonal rites vary among different sorts of Pagans from full-scale services with special robes, chalices and the lighting of candles to a little light meditation.

Many Pagans say that Christmas was superimposed over their great year-end festivals which were very popular in the Graeco-Roman world.

Firstly, the customs of giving presents, eating too much and generally having fun comes from the Roman festival Saturnalia which used to be celebrated around December 17.

Saturn was the Roman God of agriculture and plenty, and gift giving symbolised the redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor during the season of greatest hardship. Big feasts were generally laid on by the rich to feed their poorer neighbours.

The next big ancient festival was the solstice feast of Mithras, the Roman God of light on December 25. This was the one adopted by Christians sometime around the 4th century as the birthday of Jesus. Traditionally, this festival marked the renewal of hope.

For modern Pagans, the solstice is the most important time. It is often called Yule, after the Scandinavian tradition, or Mother-Night from the Anglo-Saxon tradition. On this, the longest night of the year, they celebrate the return of light and an end to darkness.

The third celebration is New Year's Eve, originally dedicated to the two-faced Roman god Janus, who looked both forward and back. At this festival there were torchlit processions, lots of songs, present giving, fortune telling and people would decorate their houses with all sorts of greenery to symbolise new life.

Much of the ancient new year celebrations, such as gathering greenery in the form of a fir tree or holly, have now moved back to start at what is the beginning of the modern Christmas season

 

[jillian]

Since eots doesn't understand the concept of copyright and plagarism....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/for_christmas/_new_year/pagan_christmas/37276.stm

 

[Gunny]

Where in the bible even remotely suggests making such a hooplah out of jebus's b day anyway? There are many, MANY reasons to celebrate this season besides xmas. Hell, it's a holiday that was ripped off of winter solstice observations instead of any real evidence that dec. 25 ws the day Mary's placenta burst with the fruit of god's loins.

This non-issue is the result of a dominant group chaffing at the liberty of minority groups to break away from the seasonal status quo. No one is torching buildings by not greeting you with a mantra. Crying foul doesn't help or convince anyone to respect your opinion on how to properly observe winter holidays.

I guess there is always the bonfire option of controlling who says what...

Neither does crying foul because the majority calls it Christmas help or convince anyone to respect the opinions of those doing the whining. The holiday is called Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Christ went out of vogue years ago. It's all about celebrating commercialization and over indulgence. It starts after Halloween now (used to start after Thanksgiving) and is measured by commerical success.

I take Labor Day off, and it's a holiday dedicated to liberal socialism. I don't care what it's called. It's a day off and a chance to party.

 

[eots]

Since eots doesn't understand the concept of copyright and plagarism....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/for_christmas/_new_year/pagan_christmas/37276.stm

The BBC logo was Incorporated with a picture of a pentagram so only the
special report part appeared in text..im sure the BBC wont sue me.and I SURE WASN'T TRYING TO IMPLY it was eots special report .I didn't even notice actually nor do I REALLY CARE .I did not see the need to post a link unless someone was inclined to say it was some sort of ant-Christmas conspiracy or other such maddness...

 

[Gunny]

The BBC logo was Incorporated with a picture of a pentagram so only the
special report part appeared in text..im sure the BBC wont sue me.and I SURE WASN'T TRYING TO IMPLY it was eots special report .I didn't even notice actually nor do I REALLY CARE .I did not see the need to post a link unless someone was inclined to say it was some sort of ant-Christmas conspiracy or other such maddness...

If you quote part of or all of any copyrighted materials on this board you have to post a link to be in compliance with the law. Pain in the ass at times, but that's how it is. They can come after the board owner if it isn't done.

 

[Annie]

Since eots doesn't understand the concept of copyright and plagarism....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/for_christmas/_new_year/pagan_christmas/37276.stm

What else is new? That's eots. Me, it's nearly 11 pm and I've got about 10, 20 something years olds playing Uno or Yahtzee and having a great time of it from the noise from the living room/dining room.

The 'old folks', meaning my bro and SIL, her mom and sister left about 45 minutes ago. We are all Christians, well except my son's girlfriend, she's Jewish, but still seemed to have a great time and brought me cookies, including candy cane ones. LOL!

My SIL mom said grace, being the oldest one now. She prayed for all those no longer with us, not failing to mention loved ones and those serving in the military. She also mentioned Israel, for there to be peace in the Land of our Savior's Birth. Did I mention she's an Evangelical, while my family is Catholic of the non-charismatic/evangelical kind?

Anywho, the above sort of besides the point, today was great. Sure a few tears here and there for my dad and mom. My nephew just kept telling me how much he looked forward to today and thanking me for making it what he 'remembered.' My SIL telling me that next year they might wish to go somewhere 'away' for Christmas, wouldn't we want that too? I don't know, I'm pretty tied to here with my family.

Well the dishwasher is running, I'm knocking off the bottle of Korbel, waste not, want not.

I hope you all had a joyous holiday!

 

[eots]

If you quote part of or all of any copyrighted materials on this board you have to post a link to be in compliance with the law. Pain in the ass at times, but that's how it is. They can come after the board owner if it isn't done.

thank you for your information and reasoned response