Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays?

[midcan5]

May whatever you believe in give you peace, love, and understanding this season of the year and throughout the years to come.

Nice.

 

[Shogun]

Neither does crying foul because the majority calls it Christmas help or convince anyone to respect the opinions of those doing the whining. The holiday is called Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Christ went out of vogue years ago. It's all about celebrating commercialization and over indulgence. It starts after Halloween now (used to start after Thanksgiving) and is measured by commerical success.

I take Labor Day off, and it's a holiday dedicated to liberal socialism. I don't care what it's called. It's a day off and a chance to party.

fortunately, yesterday is over so we can all enjoy another year befor ethe buildup of the same silly "wahhh wahhhh they didn't call it christmas" escepade.

I would defy you to name a single secular group that has in any way tried to FORCE anyone to say anything at all as a standard greeting. The Secularists are LAUGHING at this issue not insisting that anyone say anything in particular. Unless, of course, you think that BUSINESSES whose market impact is influenced by MORE THAN CHRISTIANS ONLY are a good example of secular balling? No, it's not my side that turns this into an issue every year. It's not my side who forgot that a pluralistic nation might very well have a RANGE of holiday observations or feels threatened by an inclusive holiday greeting. But, if you can show me ONE single effort to mandate public greeting i'll bite.

YOUR holiday is called christmas. I'm pretty sure the Pagans celebrate something totally different while the jews celebrate something totally different still.


Indeed, I had a great CHRISTMAS too. Believe it or not, even people who do not primarily observe christian holidays probably are STILL playing a similar holiday game even if their rules do not mimic your own. To me, this is like crying when christians refuse to celebrate Halloween in a traditional fashion. You don't see my side pointing the seasonal finger at christians who think oct 31 is the devils holiday. Likewise, it's a total farce for christians to do the same about a door greeting when, CLEARLY, the hallmark holiday aspect that they also play into is the greater hazard to religious observation.

 

[Taomon]

I confess I grump a bit when I receive a "Happy Holidays" card. When Target and Wal-Mart dropped "Christmas" from their promotional materials last year, I'll admit feeling insulted. For me, the season is Christmas and "Merry Christmas" is the way it should be, and, being one not too gung go on PC stuff, I stubbornly use that phrase in my greetings this time of year. And that beautiful old creche on the courthouse lawn is just fine.

At the same time, if I know my neighbor or friend or associate is Jewish, I wish him/her Happy Hannukah or whatever. I try not to be a total jerk.

So how is it for you? Big deal? Of no import? Should Christmas be politically correct? Or should Christians be accommodated in a season founded on a figure that they worship?

And while you are pondering that: MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!!!

When a state/Federal/Local agency uses the term Merry Christmas or displays Judeo-Christian decorations, that is wrong. That is an example of a government agency favoring a specific religion. They instead should say Happy Holidays or have an all inclusive message.

When it comes to a store, that is up to that store's owners/management. If they want to take a chance on insulting or alienating a potential customer by only stating Merry Christmas or displaying Judeo-Christian decorations, that is their perogative. And more power to that store.

But regarding the individual, it is every citizen's right to say Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas or whatever.

I was raised Christian and now practice a more inclusive spiritualism. For me, I don't care what people wish me for the holiday season. The can wish me a wonderful solstice. I don't mind. The sentiment is what is important here. Not the words. And my Jewish friends do not care either. They understand, which is more than I can say for my Christian friends, who seem to get very upset if Christmas is not enforced.

 

[AllieBaba]

For those who bemoan the commercialism of Christmas and who dislike hearing about how much consumers have spent...or haven't spent...

TURN OFF THE FRIGGIN TELEVISION!

The main problem with Christmas..the ONLY problem with Christmas that I can see is that people are so numbed to the eternal presence of the television that they don't turn it off.

The media can take anything and make it awful, and by subjecting ourselves to their jaded distortions, we allow them to tarnish whatever enjoyment we might be able to pull from this time of year.

You'll find that by turning it off, you'll miss most of the really obnoxious crap that goes along with the hols these days..and be able to enjoy quality time with your fam damily.

 

[Taomon]

For those who bemoan the commercialism of Christmas and who dislike hearing about how much consumers have spent...or haven't spent...

TURN OFF THE FRIGGIN TELEVISION!

The main problem with Christmas..the ONLY problem with Christmas that I can see is that people are so numbed to the eternal presence of the television that they don't turn it off.

Rage Against the Machine have a very good song about the influence of television..it's called "Bullet in the Head."

 

[Gunny]

fortunately, yesterday is over so we can all enjoy another year befor ethe buildup of the same silly "wahhh wahhhh they didn't call it christmas" escepade.

I would defy you to name a single secular group that has in any way tried to FORCE anyone to say anything at all as a standard greeting. The Secularists are LAUGHING at this issue not insisting that anyone say anything in particular. Unless, of course, you think that BUSINESSES whose market impact is influenced by MORE THAN CHRISTIANS ONLY are a good example of secular balling? No, it's not my side that turns this into an issue every year. It's not my side who forgot that a pluralistic nation might very well have a RANGE of holiday observations or feels threatened by an inclusive holiday greeting. But, if you can show me ONE single effort to mandate public greeting i'll bite.

YOUR holiday is called christmas. I'm pretty sure the Pagans celebrate something totally different while the jews celebrate something totally different still.


Indeed, I had a great CHRISTMAS too. Believe it or not, even people who do not primarily observe christian holidays probably are STILL playing a similar holiday game even if their rules do not mimic your own. To me, this is like crying when christians refuse to celebrate Halloween in a traditional fashion. You don't see my side pointing the seasonal finger at christians who think oct 31 is the devils holiday. Likewise, it's a total farce for christians to do the same about a door greeting when, CLEARLY, the hallmark holiday aspect that they also play into is the greater hazard to religious observation.

Let's clarify one thing ... I'm not all up in arms over this. Taking a stance for the sake of argument is nothing more than that.

But ... the fact remains, if a group or whoever were NOT bitching about, then there would be no argument, would there? It would be "Christmas" and that would be the end of that.

 

[Taomon]

Let's clarify one thing ... I'm not all up in arms over this. Taking a stance for the sake of argument is nothing more than that.

But ... the fact remains, if a group or whoever were NOT bitching about, then there would be no argument, would there? It would be "Christmas" and that would be the end of that.

Christmas to some Hanukkhah to others no?

 

[Gunny]

When a state/Federal/Local agency uses the term Merry Christmas or displays Judeo-Christian decorations, that is wrong. That is an example of a government agency favoring a specific religion. They instead should say Happy Holidays or have an all inclusive message.

That is an extremist viewpoint. Acknowledging the name of a holiday does not require embracing any and all aspects of that holiday and anyone who is offended by such is just looking for an excuse to be offended.

 

[Taomon]

That is an extremist viewpoint. Acknowledging the name of a holiday does not require embracing any and all aspects of that holiday and anyone who is offended by such is just looking for an excuse to be offended.

That is where my opinion differs gunny. Having a nativity scene on the lawn of the local library is seen as nice when you are a Chistian. But when you are not, it can be insulting.

I am not a Christian. I was highly offended when traveling through rural PA I saw a nativity scene on the lawn of the local library. I no sooner said something to my wife when I saw a lawn jockey at a nearby house.

I knew I was not in Kansas anymore.

But it doesn't make it right. The extremist views are those of the Christians who seek to embed Christianity into all levels of Government. They have a saying, "One law at a time."

You may see it as innoccous, and I see it as another attack on our freedom and our Constitution. These people want us to live in a Christian Theocratic form of Democracy.

Watch the film Jesus Camp. They teach their children slogans like "the punishment for sin is death."

I am not the extremist here. I am trying to protect my country.

 

[Foxfyre]

That is where my opinion differs gunny. Having a nativity scene on the lawn of the local library is seen as nice when you are a Chistian. But when you are not, it can be insulting.

I am not a Christian. I was highly offended when traveling through rural PA I saw a nativity scene on the lawn of the local library. I no sooner said something to my wife when I saw a lawn jockey at a nearby house.

I knew I was not in Kansas anymore.

But it doesn't make it right. The extremist views are those of the Christians who seek to embed Christianity into all levels of Government. They have a saying, "One law at a time."

You may see it as innoccous, and I see it as another attack on our freedom and our Constitution. These people want us to live in a Christian Theocratic form of Democracy.

Watch the film Jesus Camp. They teach their children slogans like "the punishment for sin is death."

I am not the extremist here. I am trying to protect my country.

Until the last few decades when an exaggerated anti-religion movement wrapped in PC emerged, your country has had nativity scenes on courthouse lawns or elsewhere on public property throughout the land without any problem for anybody. No theocracy developed. Everybody was free to practice whatever religion suited them and/or worship any god they chose or practice or worship nothing at all if that was their choice.

Christmas began as the formal recognition of the birth of the Christ with December 25 being set as the arbitrary date of the recognition.

It has evolved in various ways into elaborate religious ceremonies with magnificent music written to commemorate it. Then there was inclusion of mythical Santa Claus, reindeer, elves, etc. More secular carols were added in plus Christmas trees, greeting cards, obligatory gift giving, mulled cider, egg nog, fruit cake, other seasonal foods and drink parties, and elaborate lawn and house decorations to brighten the season. And as cities and towns got into the spirit with bright lights strung across streets and angels, candy canes, and snow flakes extending from light poles, communities organized lavish parades, store fronts became wonders of mechanized neon, and the season has been exploited, commercialized, and at times corrupted but has become a serious component of the national economy. For many businesses, if the Christmas season is not a success, they have a dismal year.

But nevertheless, the season would never have become what it is had the Church many centuries ago not adopted December 25 and the four weeks preceding it as the spot on the liturgical calendar in which Advent and Christmas would be acknowledged. That religious tradition was imported to America with the first settlers.

That nativity scene therefore should be nothing more than an interesting or beautiful work of art to the non-believers and can mean whatever anybody else wishes it to mean. It is appropriate because it is symbolic of more than 200 years of religious heritage and traditions that are inextricably woven into the history, values, laws, and mores of this country.

It is legal because nobody requires you to learn, accept, or appreciate what the scene might mean to advocates of the Christian faith. It does not violate any legal, civil, Constitutional, or unalienable right that you have, requires no investment, does not disturb your peace, has no influence over your relationships, livelihood, or opportunities. So if the majority wants it there because they like seeing it there, it takes nothing from you and the majority should prevail. At such time as the majority does not want it there, it will be gone. To remove it because it somehow offends you would be offensive to many others and would be seen as a violation of their rights. As citizens, they have ownership in that land as much as anybody else.

If you are Atheist, there is absolutely nothing on that spot on the library lawn for most of the year, therefore your beliefs receive more recognition than acknowledgement of any Christian contribution to the community.

 

[tigerbob]

Until the last few decades when an exaggerated anti-religion movement wrapped in PC emerged, your country has had nativity scenes on courthouse lawns or elsewhere on public property throughout the land without any problem for anybody. No theocracy developed. Everybody was free to practice whatever religion suited them and/or worship any god they chose or practice or worship nothing at all if that was their choice.

Christmas began as the formal recognition of the birth of the Christ with December 25 being set as the arbitrary date of the recognition.

It has evolved in various ways into elaborate religious ceremonies with magnificent music written to commemorate it. Then there was inclusion of mythical Santa Claus, reindeer, elves, etc. More secular carols were added in plus Christmas trees, greeting cards, obligatory gift giving, mulled cider, egg nog, fruit cake, other seasonal foods and drink parties, and elaborate lawn and house decorations to brighten the season. And as cities and towns got into the spirit with bright lights strung across streets and angels, candy canes, and snow flakes extending from light poles, communities organized lavish parades, store fronts became wonders of mechanized neon, and the season has been exploited, commercialized, and at times corrupted but has become a serious component of the national economy. For many businesses, if the Christmas season is not a success, they have a dismal year.

But nevertheless, the season would never have become what it is had the Church many centuries ago not adopted December 25 and the four weeks preceding it as the spot on the liturgical calendar in which Advent and Christmas would be acknowledged. That religious tradition was imported to America with the first settlers.

That nativity scene therefore should be nothing more than an interesting or beautiful work of art to the non-believers and can mean whatever anybody else wishes it to mean. It is appropriate because it is symbolic of more than 200 years of religious heritage and traditions that are inextricably woven into the history, values, laws, and mores of this country.

It is legal because nobody requires you to learn, accept, or appreciate what the scene might mean to advocates of the Christian faith. It does not violate any legal, civil, Constitutional, or unalienable right that you have, requires no investment, does not disturb your peace, has no influence over your relationships, livelihood, or opportunities. So if the majority wants it there because they like seeing it there, it takes nothing from you and the majority should prevail. At such time as the majority does not want it there, it will be gone. To remove it because it somehow offends you would be offensive to many others and would be seen as a violation of their rights. As citizens, they have ownership in that land as much as anybody else.

If you are Atheist, there is absolutely nothing on that spot on the library lawn for most of the year, therefore your beliefs receive more recognition than acknowledgement of any Christian contribution to the community.

I was about to respond to Taomon, but I think you covered everything I would have said (and then some), and far better than I would have. Great post.

 

[Foxfyre]

I was about to respond to Taomon, but I think you covered everything I would have said (and then some), and far better than I would have. Great post.

Danke. I think complaints over a "Merry Christmas" or a beautiful nativity scene on the courthouse lawn during the Christmas season are really way over the top and much ado about nothing.

 

[Taomon]

If you are Atheist, there is absolutely nothing on that spot on the library lawn for most of the year, therefore your beliefs receive more recognition than acknowledgement of any Christian contribution to the community.

Wrong. You say that because you sympathize or condone the views of the Christian cults. Maybe you want a strict Christian theocracy.

And what you neglect to state is how God and Christian dogma was adopted by Capitalists to further a nationalist (fascist in nature) view.

The pledge of allegiance was inacted in the 1950's to combat communism, but it was another way to control the masses who have inalienable rights that the state does not want them to have.

Our currency say one nation under God and that is in direct violation of the Constitution as well.

Christians want to embed their dogmas into our government and laws. They want us to be a Christian nation and Christmas is but one way in which they push their beliefs on others.

Yes, Christmas is commercial and devoid of spirituality...but the same is true of American Christianity.

 

[Taomon]

Danke. I think complaints over a "Merry Christmas" or a beautiful nativity scene on the courthouse lawn during the Christmas season are really way over the top and much ado about nothing.

Because you want a Christian nation. Sorry, not all of America is a Chrsitian.

 

[tigerbob]

Maybe you want a strict Christian theocracy.

Oh, I get it. Anyone who doesn't agree that the term "Christmas" is offensive must want a strict Christian theocracy.

You don't strike me as a 'glass half full' sort of person.

Welcome to the board.

 

[Taomon]

Oh, I get it. Anyone who doesn't agree that the term "Christmas" is offensive must want a strict Christian theocracy.

You don't strike me as a 'glass half full' sort of person.

Welcome to the board.

No. I don't think saying Merry Christmas is offensive. I don't think nativity scenes are offensive. Unless they come from a state agency.

And that is where we differ. You are fine with a court house, a library or a president saying Merry Christmas or having a Santa Clause figure. I am.

But because there is one non-Christian who is offened, we have to consider it.

Besides, I am not saying that private businesses or individual citizens cannot say or decorate as they wish. They can and should. It is only the state that cannot.

And again, that is where we differ. Sorry for offending.

 

[Mr.Conley]

No. I don't think saying Merry Christmas is offensive. I don't think nativity scenes are offensive. Unless they come from a state agency.

And that is where we differ. You are fine with a court house, a library or a president saying Merry Christmas or having a Santa Clause figure. I am.

But because there is one non-Christian who is offened, we have to consider it.

Besides, I am not saying that private businesses or individual citizens cannot say or decorate as they wish. They can and should. It is only the state that cannot.

And again, that is where we differ. Sorry for offending.

In many respects I think the best way to judge the propriety of these sorts of situations is to reverse them. What would the response be if the local library had a sign up every March declaring that "There is No God", or an annual exhibit heralding the wonders of Satanism?

 

[Taomon]

In many respects I think the best way to judge the propriety of these sorts of situations is to reverse them. What would the response be if the local library had a sign up every March declaring that "There is No God", or an annual exhibit heralding the wonders of Satanism?

The there would be an uproar.

What if the President sent a card that said Happy EIN?

 

[Gunny]

That is where my opinion differs gunny. Having a nativity scene on the lawn of the local library is seen as nice when you are a Chistian. But when you are not, it can be insulting.

I am not a Christian. I was highly offended when traveling through rural PA I saw a nativity scene on the lawn of the local library. I no sooner said something to my wife when I saw a lawn jockey at a nearby house.

I knew I was not in Kansas anymore.

As I said, those who are insulted are looking for an excuse to be. Using your reasoning, I can be insulted every time I see a kook liberal, homosexual, and/or anyone else I don't happen to like.

But it doesn't make it right. The extremist views are those of the Christians who seek to embed Christianity into all levels of Government. They have a saying, "One law at a time."

You may see it as innoccous, and I see it as another attack on our freedom and our Constitution. These people want us to live in a Christian Theocratic form of Democracy.

There are no more Christians trying to embed Christianity into all levels of government than there are goober secularists trying to remove, distort and/or revise every vestige of Judeo Christian tradition and history that happens to be part of our heritage as a Nation and the history of our people and government.

I think denying our culture and history is slightly dumber than the sensationist, alarmist whining that Christians are trying to create a theocracy.

Watch the film Jesus Camp. They teach their children slogans like "the punishment for sin is death."

I am not the extremist here. I am trying to protect my country.

You are very much the extremist here. The premise of your argument is based on attempting to portray a small minority as some vast conspiracy by ALL Christians. THAT, in and of itself is an extreme and distorted view of a benign subculture.

 

[Foxfyre]

In many respects I think the best way to judge the propriety of these sorts of situations is to reverse them. What would the response be if the local library had a sign up every March declaring that "There is No God", or an annual exhibit heralding the wonders of Satanism?

If the majority can make the case that Atheism or Satanism as an institution or celebration has had an inextricable influence on the history, culture, heritage, laws, mores, values, and economy of the nation, then certainly a display symbolizing that would be appropriate.