Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays?

[no1tovote4]

You mean there is more than one Christian?

LOL.

The point was there would be more than one position taken by Christians.

The idea that people are talking about in this thread is hard to describe but it is clear in context.

Walmart had links on their website... If you typed Christmas into the search of the site you got a "holiday" link, if you typed Kwanzaa you got a "Kwanzaa" link, if you typed Hannukah you got a "Hannukah" link. There was only one holiday that they were unwilling to mention by name due to PC policy, and this was clearly pointed out in the 'answer' that the lady received when her complaint was received. They changed the site after the complaint reached the news, this is a good thing.

If some Christians believe that they have been slighted, their only recourse is to consistently keep it in the mind of the public through complaints, boycotts, etc.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

LOL.

The point was there would be more than one position taken by Christians.

The idea that people are talking about in this thread is hard to describe but it is clear in context.

Walmart had links on their website... If you typed Christmas into the search of the site you got a "holiday" link, if you typed Kwanzaa you got a "Kwanzaa" link, if you typed Hannukah you got a "Hannukah" link. There was only one holiday that they were unwilling to mention by name due to PC policy, and this was clearly pointed out in the 'answer' that the lady received when her complaint was received. They changed the site after the complaint reached the news, this is a good thing.

If some Christians believe that they have been slighted, their only recourse is to consistently keep it in the mind of the public through complaints, boycotts, etc.

The Left gets into fits when there is discrimination against a tiny minority, but when there is discrimination against the majority it does not matter to them.

The Left's approach is obviously biased and discriminatory and politically motivated.
The Left is NOT being fair as some of their blind followers believe.

 

[MissileMan]

The Christmas holiday isn't solely a Christian holiday. According to the congresssional act that made it a national holiday, it is a holiday celebrating Jesus as a philosopher (keeping in line with the 1st ammendment prohibition against religion sponsorship). Whether you want to take it as far as celebrating Jesus as the son of God or not is your own business.

If Christmas isn't solely a Christian holiday, why the continued fuss about it being referred to in a non-Christian manner?

 

[MissileMan]

The Left gets into fits when there is discrimination against a tiny minority, but when there is discrimination against the majority it does not matter to them.

The Left's approach is obviously biased and discriminatory and politically motivated.
The Left is NOT being fair as some of their blind followers believe.

I take any discrimination against anyone seriously. At the same time, I scoff at those who cry foul where none has taken place.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If Christmas isn't solely a Christian holiday, why the continued fuss about it being referred to in a non-Christian manner?

Because the majority in this country want to celebrate Christmas as Christmas, not as some nebulous "holiday".

Christmas is about Christ. Get it?

I take any discrimination against anyone seriously. At the same time, I scoff at those who cry foul where none has taken place.

Then it is time you take a good look around you to see what is really going down.

 

[Bonnie]

So you would prefer that a (by your own accounts) large chunk of that 85% mock Christmas by celebrating it when they aren't true Christians?

Wow that is quite a stretch......LOL

 

[archangel]

spends way too much time in the silos...needs to come up for some air...the classic "Grinch" he has become...maybe clay too!

 

[Bonnie]

I take any discrimination against anyone seriously. At the same time, I scoff at those who cry foul where none has taken place.

For most that abstain from saying Merry Christmas it probably is not purposeful discrimination but rather people thinking they are being thoughtfully PC...That said you really have to know that when the ACLU comes into schools and sues the the school district because kids made cut out angels and pasted them on the walls or they included a few religious Christmas songs in their winter pageant.. that is an absolute outright attempt to diminish any deference to religion/christianity from the public period!!

How about from now on instead of saying Happy Holidays, we all just say "Happy December-January" or "Happy winter months" because afterall we can't offend athiests who don't celebrate anything but the New Year...At what point does it stop getting ridiculous?????

 

[MissileMan]

For most that abstain from saying Merry Christmas it probably is not purposeful discrimination but rather people thinking they are being thoughtfully PC...That said you really have to know that when the ACLU comes into schools and sues the the school district because kids made cut out angels and pasted them on the walls or they included a few religious Christmas songs in their winter pageant.. that is an absolute outright attempt to diminish any deference to religion/christianity from the public period!!

How about from now on instead of saying Happy Holidays, we all just say "Happy December-January" or "Happy winter months" because afterall we can't offend athiests who don't celebrate anything but the New Year...At what point does it stop getting ridiculous?????

And when did I say that the ACLU is anything but a bunch of extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Falwells and Robertsons? I haven't even said that I object to "Merry Christmas", because I don't. You can count me among those who think that any sincere greeting is okay. It's amusing that people are getting their panties in a twist because a retail outlet isn't putting a religious greeting up for the totally irreligious pursuit of toys, trees, and gift wrap. Imagine the screaming if a store were to use an image of Jesus on a display selling Chatty Cathy dolls.

 

[Bonnie]

And when did I say that the ACLU is anything but a bunch of extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Falwells and Robertsons? I haven't even said that I object to "Merry Christmas", because I don't. You can count me among those who think that any sincere greeting is okay. It's amusing that people are getting their panties in a twist because a retail outlet isn't putting a religious greeting up for the totally irreligious pursuit of toys, trees, and gift wrap. Imagine the screaming if a store were to use an image of Jesus on a display selling Chatty Cathy dolls.

It would be easy to seperate the two, however they are occuring at the same time and in fevered pitch, and while it would be easier for me to just think nothing of it and chalk it up to silliness or pettiness, with the sum total of everything going on it's no wonder people of Christian persuasion are angry- finally as they see this going too far.

for exmaple

Did you hear about the University of Wisconsin -- Eau Claire (UWEC) banning resident assistants (RAs) from leading Bible studies in their own dormitories? That's the subject of my latest e-mail blast from the ever-vigilant Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE).

This outrageous, indefensible assault on Christian religious liberties provides a perfect opportunity for the church-state separation crusaders to prove they're really devoted to religious liberty, as they claim. Let's see if they protest.

An UWEC official sent RAs a letter forbidding them from leading Bible studies because students might conclude that such RAs were not "approachable." Don't laugh. Violators, warned the letter, would be subject to disciplinary action. Of course, the letter also purported to prohibit Koran and Torah studies, but it appears such studies were not even at issue.

"Wall of separation" advocates insist their primary goal is to prevent government from promoting religion. The "wall," they say, is what has been responsible for our nation's unparalleled religious liberty.


But the only wall of separation the Framers erected, via the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, was that prohibiting the federal government from establishing a national church or religion. Why? Because a compulsory, state-supported religion would stifle religious liberty, an evil the Framers' ancestors sailed the Atlantic to escape. The thrust of the Establishment Clause was to promote religious freedom.

Not content to stop there, the Framers also included the "Free Exercise" clause, which expressly forbade Congress from making any law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Clearly, then, the focus of the first two clauses of the First Amendment to the Constitution is religious liberty.

Church-state separation zealots have often selectively applied their wall of separation. They have consistently screamed bloody murder at any whiff of Christianity in the public square, especially when there is the remotest suggestion that government is merely countenancing Christianity (far from endorsing it). But they've sat idly by as the state has outright endorsed other religions or worldviews or their values.

It is mostly Christianity and its values (and perceived intolerance) they oppose, not the state endorsement of religion. I suppose if you could ever force them to be honest with themselves, they would grudgingly concede the point, while justifying it on the basis that Christianity, with its pervasiveness in this country, is the only religion whose dominant influence (and very nature) jeopardizes our tradition of religious liberty. (Of course, that is absurd on its face, since America is the freest nation in history largely because of its Christian roots.)

In their zeal to honor the wall of separation between state and Christianity with the ostensible goal of promoting religious liberty the secularists have trampled on that very liberty. That is, by twisting the Establishment Clause beyond recognition, they have, in many cases, emasculated the Free Exercise Clause.

This has happened most prominently in public schools, where in their mania to prohibit the state (the public school) from endorsing religion, they have suppressed the free exercise rights of the students. For example, schools sometimes forbid references to Christ by commencement speakers, because they apparently believe that to permit students to voluntarily exercise their religious freedom or expression is tantamount to the state endorsing the Christian religion.

But the state is no more endorsing the Christian religion by permitting the valedictorian's reference to Christ than the government is endorsing my convincing arguments in this essay by not infringing on my freedom to express (and publish) these profundities.

In the case of UWEC's ban on RA-led Bible studies, if we give the school the benefit of a huge, unwarranted doubt, we could conclude that it wasn't specifically targeting Christianity, since it nominally applied the ban to other religions.

But either way, it is still grossly infringing on the free exercise rights of its RAs and its students, all in the interest of avoiding any appearance of "unapproachability" on the part of the RAs.

You see, the presumption often adopted by our cultural elite is that Christianity is, on its face, intolerant. Doesn't everyone know that any RA who would lead a Bible study is less approachable, especially to members of other religions?

In the name of protecting all hypersensitive students' non-existent constitutional right to be free from the slightest discomfort at the hands of the state (most of which anticipated discomfort is likely a figment of the imagination of those paranoid about Christianity), this university has chosen to violate the most important right our Constitution does guaranty: religious liberty.

The only "separating" usually being done by the fabled "wall" is the severance of religious liberties, mostly Christian, from the Constitution.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/davidlimbaugh/2005/11/29/177024.html

Any sane person who values their beleifs is going have pause for thought. Probably the ACLU and other organizations that are doing this have nothing to do with sales clerks in Targets or Walmart but it certainly is a logical outcome to the overall assualt on religion in this country..The ACLU has nicely set the stage for this.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

And when did I say that the ACLU is anything but a bunch of extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Falwells and Robertsons? I haven't even said that I object to "Merry Christmas", because I don't. You can count me among those who think that any sincere greeting is okay. It's amusing that people are getting their panties in a twist because a retail outlet isn't putting a religious greeting up for the totally irreligious pursuit of toys, trees, and gift wrap. Imagine the screaming if a store were to use an image of Jesus on a display selling Chatty Cathy dolls.

Who'd be screaming? The ACLU? If tastefully done, I wouldn't find an image of Jesus by the dolls a problem. The total absence of religious images is what bothers me.

The "pursuit of toys, trees, and gift wrap" is not a "totally irreligious pursuit".
It represents the Christian values of giving to others, caring about others, and celebrating together the joy of the birth of Jesus and all He represents. The fact that Christmas has also become big business is another story.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Wow that is quite a stretch......LOL

It was, and he called me on it. It wasn't my personal opinion on the matter so much as a request for clarification. I'd go back and delete it, but that kind of ruins the point of debating on a messageboard, I guess. Good job keeping me honest though, I can't sneak anything by you!

 

[Bonnie]

It was, and he called me on it. It wasn't my personal opinion on the matter so much as a request for clarification. I'd go back and delete it, but that kind of ruins the point of debating on a messageboard, I guess. Good job keeping me honest though, I can't sneak anything by you!

No need to delete it..And you knew as soon as you posted that it was shall we say a bit dishonest, but yes that goes along with the spirit of the debate...

 

[The ClayTaurus]

In general, I'm sympathetic to any complaints about kids getting suspended for passing out Christmas candy with religious notes on them or other such things, but when you bitch about Walmart not saying Merry Christmas in their advertisement, it doesn't make much sense to some of us. Christmas is overcommercialized, yet not commercialized enough.

The problem whenever this is debated these days is that if you try and talk about the stores not saying Christmas, you get dragged into all the other ways Christmas is getting hated on and suddenly you're in favor of holiday trees and expelling kids for giving out prayer cards.

I just wish I could get a clear, concise answer. Do you want Christmas commercialized, or not?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

No need to delete it..And you knew as soon as you posted that it was shall we say a bit dishonest, but yes that goes along with the spirit of the debate...

Of course. It was baiting to try and get something I could better understand out of him, which I did.

 

[GotZoom]

In general, I'm sympathetic to any complaints about kids getting suspended for passing out Christmas candy with religious notes on them or other such things, but when you bitch about Walmart not saying Merry Christmas in their advertisement, it doesn't make much sense to some of us. Christmas is overcommercialized, yet not commercialized enough.

The problem whenever this is debated these days is that if you try and talk about the stores not saying Christmas, you get dragged into all the other ways Christmas is getting hated on and suddenly you're in favor of holiday trees and expelling kids for giving out prayer cards.

I just wish I could get a clear, concise answer. Do you want Christmas commercialized, or not?

Two different subjects.

I don't care of Christmas is commercialized...it's going to be. Would I prefer not to see Christmas decorations left on my neighbor's house all year long? Yes. Would I prefer not to see Santa Claus in the mall before Thanksgiving? Yes. Would I prefer not to see stores with Christmas decorations up before Halloween? Yes.

If seeing Christmas commercialized will allow "Christ" to be put back in Christmas..then let it be all year long.

The problem is when Happy Holidays replaces Merry Christmas - all because someone is offended.

Well, it offends me when I can't say Merry Christmas.

The ACLU would rather fight for those who don't want it than those who do.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

spends way too much time in the silos...needs to come up for some air...the classic "Grinch" he has become...maybe clay too!

methinks you spend way too much time making worthless posts like this without offering anything substantive... but that is of course because, if you posted something worthwhile, you might actually be called upon to defend it with something more than "I'm old, what do I know" or "I'm just a cowboy, don't blame me" or whatever your cop-out statement of the week is. In the end, you'll continue to not address the issue and instead concentrate on trolling people because you are completely incapable of actually debating about anything for more than, say, 3 posts total. But hey, go ahead and prove me wrong; post something worthwhile to the debate and surprise us all. My bet? This'll end up with your paranoia theories about multiple user accounts and admin shadyness.

Apparently we're about to surf down another wave of your drivel, I was just thinking we were in a trough for an extended period of time.

*grabs surfboard*

/rant off.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

In general, I'm sympathetic to any complaints about kids getting suspended for passing out Christmas candy with religious notes on them or other such things, but when you bitch about Walmart not saying Merry Christmas in their advertisement, it doesn't make much sense to some of us. Christmas is overcommercialized, yet not commercialized enough.

The problem whenever this is debated these days is that if you try and talk about the stores not saying Christmas, you get dragged into all the other ways Christmas is getting hated on and suddenly you're in favor of holiday trees and expelling kids for giving out prayer cards.

I just wish I could get a clear, concise answer. Do you want Christmas commercialized, or not?

It is the stores who are selling their products to people who are celebrating Christmas by and large. Christmas falls on December 25th when the big commercialized selling stops. Don't try to tell me that the commercialized "holidays" are really about anything else other than Christmas.

Only about 4 percent of the people are celebrating other religious holidays which do not fall on December 25th but on other days around the end of the year, like Hannukah. New Years is big for the Chinese. A miniscule number of pagans may be celebrating solstice instead of Christmas.

The agnostics/atheists are not celebrating a religious holiday. Although many of them claim to be agnostic/atheist in the polls, I suspect many of them actually celebrate Christmas. Most of them are probably young rebels from Christian families who fell away from their religion. I'd hazard to guess about 90 to 95 percent of the U.S. population celebrates Christmas in one way or another.

Christmas is THE holiday. It is not just an unmentionable part of "the holidays".

Walmart and Target and others need to recognize what 95% of us are celebrating. Otherwise they are just catering to the tiny minority. That is a big insult to the rest of us who are celebrating Christmas.

The way we need to respond to this insult by the Walmarts of the world is to not spend our Christmas dollars in their UN-Christmas stores.

 

[Bonnie]

In general, I'm sympathetic to any complaints about kids getting suspended for passing out Christmas candy with religious notes on them or other such things, but when you bitch about Walmart not saying Merry Christmas in their advertisement, it doesn't make much sense to some of us. Christmas is overcommercialized, yet not commercialized enough.

The problem whenever this is debated these days is that if you try and talk about the stores not saying Christmas, you get dragged into all the other ways Christmas is getting hated on and suddenly you're in favor of holiday trees and expelling kids for giving out prayer cards.

I just wish I could get a clear, concise answer. Do you want Christmas commercialized, or not?

Christmas being commercialized doesn't bother me at all because it always will be. I know from my own experience that we all do it, but when the gift giving is over those who are truly Christians know full well what Christmas is really about as is evidenced by midnight mass being so popular that you need to go there an hour early to get a seat.

 

[KarlMarx]

Christmas being commercialized doesn't bother me at all because it always will be. I know from my own experience that we all do it, but when the gift giving is over those who are truly Christians know full well what Christmas is really about as is evidenced by midnight mass being so popular that you need to go there an hour early to get a seat.

Well... to balance it out, my guess is that charitable giving increases dramatically. My area sponsors poor families each year (each department gets one). I imagine that the same scene is reapeated all across the country.

So the commercialization of Christmas isn't so bad.

Considering the history of Christmas (it used to be celebrated much like Mardi Gras in New Orleans is today), it's pretty tame!

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real.html