Liberalism's Fatal Flaw

[LoneLaugher]

The OP thinks liberals want everyone to have equal incomes and material possessions?

I'm a liberal. I don't want that. Maybe I'm a classical liberal?

 

[PoliticalChic]

The OP thinks liberals want everyone to have equal incomes and material possessions?

I'm a liberal. I don't want that. Maybe I'm a classical liberal?

A perfect example of the fact that Liberals simply vote Liberal without understanding what it is they are voting for.

As I said earlier, and you just verified....
Liberals march lock step in acceptance of the views of their elites, making them appear more like iron filings in a magnetic field than a thinking human being.

 

[Wilbur Right]

Be sure to return when you when you learn to speak civilly to your betters.

I always speak civilly to my betters.

You aren't one of them.

But could you point out some great republican accomplishments.........without having to go back to pre historic times. I know it'll be difficult. But give it a try.

Maybe I'll talk nicer to you if you can do that.

Do you believe the EITC is a great republican accomishment?

 

[Jantje_Smit]

The OP thinks liberals want everyone to have equal incomes and material possessions?

I'm a liberal. I don't want that. Maybe I'm a classical liberal?

I'm a socialist (commie if you like) and I don't even want that

I'm serious when I say that I don't know what a liberal is though, the impression I get is something of what would be a social democrat over here

 

[Mac1958]

Contemporary conservatism's fatal flaw is that it is represented by people like the OP. Its decline in popularity is attributable in large part to its repulsive messengers.

Now, to address the thread specifically, there is a direct correlation. The proliferation of repulsive representatives of conservatism has effectively opened the door for a strong lurch to the left, and that's precisely what we're seeing. Leftists - and I don't mean traditional liberals, I mean hardcore leftists - should thank their lucky stars for conservative talk radio and its faithful and obedient adherents, obviously including the OP. You're getting a valuable assist here.

Yes, the far left has become stronger and more emboldened, in large part because of the unattractive antics of the far right. And whatever weaknesses and flaws you may want to attribute to liberalism will manifest more quickly and more broadly because of people like the OP.

It's happening by comparison.
.

Oooo......based the point that you are struggling to purport, albeit ineffectually.....one can only conclude that you are the board equivalent of Jeb Bush trying to respond to brutal slapping around that I've been forced to administer to you.


Good to see a little life in you.
I attribute same to my efforts.


Bet you'll start to feel better about yourself.....and thank me for it.

And right on cue.
.

I'm not convinced that you are capable of a serious discussion....after all, you've never produced even a single thoughtful post....but, OK...I'll call you on it.

"Contemporary conservatism's fatal flaw is that it is represented by people like the OP."

Classical liberalism, the view of the Founders, and what would be called conservatism today, is based on individualism, free markets, and limited constitutional government.

Now....go right ahead and put your foot in your mouth: explain why you have a problem with these doctrines.



Well????

Please try to focus here, because I'll make this as clear as I can.

Your question is an absolutely perfect example of my point. Here is PRECISELY what you said, because I will copy and paste it (you know all about that):

Now....go right ahead and put your foot in your mouth: explain why you have a problem with these doctrines.

If you were capable of reading my post without the traditional perception distortions suffered by hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum, you would realize that I did not refer to ANY "doctrine" at ANY time in my post.

Again, for clarity, because I know you're going to deflect - it was not about doctrine, it was about behavior. Get it?

My point was clear - to anyone whose perceptions are not distorted by partisan ideology, anyway - that the problem is the messenger. The message is different than the messenger, do you understand that? The message is a different thing than the way it is presented, do you understand that?

I'm guessing not.

With every post, hardcore partisan ideologues illustrate the very behaviors to which I constantly refer. And more, your behaviors are so similar! Left or Right, it doesn't matter. You are the problem.
.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Be sure to return when you when you learn to speak civilly to your betters.

I always speak civilly to my betters.

You aren't one of them.

But could you point out some great republican accomplishments.........without having to go back to pre historic times. I know it'll be difficult. But give it a try.

Maybe I'll talk nicer to you if you can do that.

Do you believe the EITC is a great republican accomishment?

1. Often misquoted as ‘The business of America is business,” Coolidge really said:

“...After all, the chief business of the American people is business.
They are profoundly concerned with producing, buying, selling, investing and prospering in the world. I am strongly of opinion that the great majority of people will always find these are moving impulses of our life. …

Wealth is the product of industry, ambition, character and untiring effort. In all experience, the accumulation of wealth means the multiplication of schools, the increase of knowledge, the dissemination of intelligence, the encouragement of science, the broadening of outlook, the expansion of liberties, the widening of culture. Of course, the accumulation of wealth cannot be justified as the chief end of existence. But we are compelled to recognize it as a means to well-nigh every desirable achievement. So long as wealth is made the means and not the end, we need not greatly fear it.”
January 17, 1925 Given before the American Society of Newspaper Editors


2. Now, consider the above as the antithesis of the dunce in the White House.
Liberal views gave us this:

1. "...take-home pay for many American workers has effectively fallen since the economic recovery began in 2009, according to a new study by an advocacy group that is to be released on Thursday.
The declines were greatest for the lowest-paid workers in sectors where hiring has been strong — home health care, food preparation and retailing — even though wages were already below average to begin with in those service industries.
“Stagnant wages are a problem for everyone at this point, but the imbalance in the economy has become more pronounced since the recession,”..."http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/03/b...rkers-see-biggest-drop-in-paychecks.html?_r=0


2."....US hourly wages have not only not increased for the past 7 years,but for thevast majority of the labor force continue to decline,.... just the month of August will be enough to provide the Trump - and every other - campaign with enough soundbites and pivot points to last it for weeks on end: namely,that in August a whopping 698,000 native-born Americans lost their job.This drop was offset by 204,000 foreign-born Americans, who got a job in the month of August. ....since December 2007, according to the Household Survey,only 790,000 native born Americanjobs have been added.Contrast that withthe 2.1 million foreign-born Americanswho have found a job over the same time period..."698K Native-Born Americans Lost Their Job In August: Why This Suddenly Is The Most Important Jobs Chart | Zero Hedge


3. October 2015: "Payrolls Disaster: Only 142K Jobs Added In September With Zero Wage Growth; August Revised Much Lower"Payrolls Disaster: Only 142K Jobs Added In September With Zero Wage Growth; August Revised Much Lower | Zero Hedge


4. "Obamacare health insurance co-ops surged past the $1 billion mark in losses this week, making history of sorts.The insolvencies, totaling $1.36 billion, mean that the co-ops have burned through more than half of theoriginal $2 billion appropriatedin 2010 for the program under the Affordable Care Act. The funds were loaned to the start-up co-ops in 2012 and were to be repaid in 15 years, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which manages Obamacare.
...13 of the 23 federally-financed Obamacare co-ops have officially failed in only two years. Most are in the process of default as insurance regulators attempt to pay customer’s medical bills, cover medical providers and pay other creditors.
Obamacare Co-Op Mess Causes $1.3 Billion In Losses


5."Obama Administration Announces 144 Big Regulations Right Before Thanksgiving
This is a new record, beating the previous high of 136 set by President Obama this spring."
Obama Administration Announces 144 Big Regulations Right Before Thanksgiving


6. "...ObamaCare experiment costing taxpayers $2.4 billionis failing. The co-ops were founded on the idealistic belief that community members could band together to create health insurance companies that would be member-driven, service-oriented, and would not have to answer to shareholders or turn a profit."
400,000 Citizens To Lose Health Insurance (Again) Because Of Obamacare Co-Op Failures



7. "The U.S. expanded at a 2.2% rate through the first nine months of the year, and the economy is projected to grow at a similar pace in the fourth quarter that ends on Dec. 31. If so, the economy will have failed to reach 3% growth for the 10th straight year, marking the slowest stretch since the end of World War II.
Historically the economy has expanded at a 3.3% rate."U.S. economy set to grow less than 3% for the 10th straight year


8. "Congress has now cleared the way for federal debt to pass$20 trillionby the end of the president’s second term. President Obama said the new budget deal will be paid for in a “balanced” and “responsible” way, but on the day the deal was signed, the federal debt jumped $339 billion—a third of a trillion dollars in one day."Societywatch


9.The GDPNow model forecast for real GDP growth (seasonally adjusted annual rate) in the fourth quarter of 2015 is 0.8 percent on January 8, down from 1.0 percent on January 6. The forecast for the contribution of inventory investment to fourth-quarter real GDP growth declined 0.2 percentage points to -0.8 percentage points after this morning's wholesale trade report from the U.S. Census Bureau.GDPNow


10. "Retail Sales in U.S. Decrease to End Weakest Year Since 2009Sales at U.S. retailers declined in December to wrap the weakest year since 2009, raising concern about the momentum in consumer spending heading into 2016. The 0.1 percent drop matched the median forecast of 84 economists surveyed by Bloomberg and followed a 0.4 percent gain in November, Commerce Department figures showed Friday in Washington. For all of 2015, purchases climbed 2.1 percent, the smallest advance of the current economic expansion."Retail Sales in U.S. Decrease to End Weakest Year Since 2009


11. " The federal government heavily subsidizes higher education through a complex system of grants and loans. While the programs are great for colleges — they haveenabledan astronomical increase in tuition — they contain few measures holding the institutions accountable to their students. As a result, only59 percentof students graduate from four-year colleges and universities within six years. Those lucky enough to graduate face another hurdle:44 percentof recent college graduates occupy jobs which do not require a college degree. Taken together, these numbers suggest that only one-third of college enrollees emerge from the system with both a degree and a relevant job." What "Free" College Can't Fix | Preston Cooper

12. Obama is the first President never to have had a year of 3% or better economic growth: "...annual growth during Obama’s “recovery” has never topped 3%. By comparison, it never fell below 3% during the Reagan recovery. And in the nine years following the 1990-91 recession, GDP grew faster than 3% in all but two. Heck, even Jimmy Carter had some strong growth years." President Obama’s Growth Gap Hits $1.31 Trillion

a. "The years since 2007 have been a macroeconomic disaster for the United States of a magnitude unprecedented since the Great Depression." Obama: Always Wrong, Never In Doubt

b. "....first president since Hoover to never have a single year above 3% GDP growth."Obama economy is 'amazing,' says hedge fund billionaire



13. According to the2016 Index of Economic Freedom, an annual publication by The Heritage Foundation, America’s economic freedom has tumbled. With losses of economic freedom in eight of the past nine years, the U.S. has tied its worst score ever, wiping out a decade of progress. Since early2009:

· Government spending has exploded, amounting to $29,867 per household in 2015.

· The national debt has risen to $125,000 for every tax filing household in America—a total over $18 trillion.

· The government takeover of health care is raising prices and disrupting markets.

· Bailouts and new government regulations have increased uncertainty, stifling investment and job creation. America’s Economic Freedom Has Rapidly Declined Under Obama

14 "Despite the unemployment rate being at an eight-year low (4.9 percent as of January 2016), the number of people on food stamps remains near an all-time high which was 47,636,000 in 2013.

Why the disparity in the numbers? Well, the unemployment rate does not take into account people who are not in, or have dropped out of, the workforce altogether.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported in January of this year that approximately 94 million Americans are not participating in the workforce.

We now have a country based on government dependence." Food Stamp Users Near Record High Despite Low Unemployment Rate

15. "CHICAGO (Reuters) - Predominantly African-American neighborhoods in Chicago have seen poverty rise and services diminish even as the nation's third largest city has become less racially segregated,.... black areas are seeing economic stagnation or decline,.... mostly black areas have lost health clinics, social service agencies and other areas of support..." Exclusive: Poverty up, services diminished in Chicago's black neighborhoods - study


16. "Employers added more workers in February than projected but wages unexpectedly declined, dashing hopes that reduced slack in the labor market was starting to benefit all Americans..... Average hourly earnings dropped by 0.1 percent from the prior month, the first decline since December 2014 the Labor Department’s figures showed. Worker pay increased 2.2 percent over the 12 months ended in February, less than the 2.5 percent forecast in the Bloomberg survey. Wage growth has been hovering just above 2 percent year-over-year on average since the current expansion began in mid-2009."http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-surge-while-wages-drop-in-mixed-jobs-report

17. New Obama regulation will deprive middle class investors of access to financial information. "...the controversial pending Department of Labor regulation that would impose new restrictions on a vast swath of financial professionals... a new report for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, similar restrictions in Great Britain have caused a “guidance gap” in which brokers have largely stopped serving customers with assets less than £150,000 ($240,000).... Such limits on financial discussion may seem to violate the First Amendment..." http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnber...l-broadcasters-like-dave-ramsey/#2962753ee696

“this Obama rule will kill the Middle Class and below ability to access personal advice.”

18. "U.S. retail sales dropped in February and the prior month’s gain was revised to adecline, calling into question the narrative that bigger gains in consumer spending would propel economic growth at the start of 2016. The 0.1 percent decline in purchases followed a revised 0.4 percent January decrease, Commerce Department figures showed Tuesday.... “We’re seeing higher rents, higher healthcare expenses,.... Retail sales excluding autos fell 0.1 percent after a 0.4 percent decrease in January, according to Tuesday’s report." http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-fell-in-february-after-january-revised-down

19. "That basic math is why middle class incomes have been in decline under Obama.The Census Bureau reports that since Obama became President 7 years ago, real median household income has fallen by $1,300 a year. Heritage Foundation Chief Economist Steve Moore explained in testimony before the Ways and Means Committee, “At 2 percent growth the economy doesn’t spin off enough jobs to increase wages, and tax revenues grow much too slowly to balance the budget.”

The recession officially ended more than 6 years ago. Wages and incomes have always grown in recoveries, not declined. Moreover, the American historical record is the deeper the recession, the stronger the recovery. The economy is supposed to boom in a recovery to catch up with its long term economic growth trendline. But over 6 years after the recession ended, that still has not happened. Instead, what we have gotten under President Obama is the worst recovery from a recession since the Great Depression."Realizing The Super Bowl Of American Economic Growth

20. "8 More Obamacare Co-ops Will Probably Shut Down

12 of the 23 taxpayer funded non-profit co-ops created under the Affordable Care Act were shuttered, and the largest of them isunder investigation.

Records obtained by Richard Pollack of theDaily Callerindicate another 8 co-ops might be on their way out this year:
'...there’s not a turnaround in sight. The same problems that plagued them before are continuing,”
8 More Obamacare Co-ops Will Probably Shut Down

21. the United States had lost its once-enormous global lead in middle-class pay, based on international income surveys over the last three decades.After-tax median income in Canada appears to have been higher last year than the same measure in this country. The poor in Canada and much of western Europe earn more than the poor here.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/29/u...dgety-boys-and-a-sputtering-economy.html?_r=0

22. Middle aged people laid off and unable to find work are taking another way out. They're killing themselves. Suicide rates are soaring, according to federal data released last week. Especially in economically depressed states and job-starved upstate New York. People in need of work are twice as likely to take their own lives as employed people, and people fired in their forties and fifties find it hardest to get hired again.
That makes boosting economic growth a life- and- death issue. But you wouldn't know it listening to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. President Obama whitewashes reality, claiming the "American economy is pretty darn good right now."
Soaring Suicides Emerge As a National Crisis Laid to Economic Stall - The New York Sun


23. "U.S. Economy Expands to 0.5% Pace, Weakest in Two Years
The U.S. economy expanded in the first quarter at the slowest pace in two years ....Gross domestic product rose at a 0.5 percent annualized rate after a 1.4 percent fourth-quarter advance, Commerce Department data showed Thursday. The increase was less than the 0.7 percent median projection in a Bloomberg survey and marked the third straight disappointing start to a year." http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...in-first-quarter-at-slowest-pace-in-two-years

"OBAMA: Anyone claiming that America's economy is in decline is peddling fiction.”http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...conomy_is_in_decline_is_peddling_fiction.html


What sort of fool would vote for this?????

Speak up.

 

[Camp]

The OP's method of demonizing is to represent ideologies in their puristic forms and concepts. In reality, pure ideologists in people or countries are rare. Most people and countries adhere to a blending and mesh of ideologies, borrowing various concepts to fit their purposes. Those persons that represent purist views are negatively viewed as extremist and ideologues. Nations that adhere to purist ideologies are almost non-existent and the ones who attempt it destroy themselves over time or are in constant turmoil.

Note today's political atmosphere and even the reality of conservative vs liberal in America. Reagan, a conservative supported and even made efforts to save Social Security. Trump, a guy with a liberal background is promoting conservative ideas. His followers call themselves conservatives but are willing to go along with the liberal policies he promotes. Clinton has shown conservative values and is battling an opponent with far more liberal positions than she has ever displayed.

The OP will say all her facts are accurate and true, but accurate and true facts are easily distorted and taken out of context to create a false premise. It is the main method for creating conspiracy theories.

 

[PoliticalChic]

6. Under the new definition, an exact similarity of material wealth or income should be the goal of ‘social justice.’



By the 20th century, the new ‘equality’ became a threat to freedom. FDR’s New Deal and Truman’s Fair Deal claimed the rectification of inequalities as within the purview of government.

LBJ’s Great Society championed the redistribution of wealth and status in the name of equality. Realize that the concomitant movement toward collectivism meant a decline in the freedoms of business, private associations, families, and individuals.

The accession of these views, equality vs. freedom, means that there can be no free market, for that would always result in inequalities. Compared to nations such as Sweden, the United States will, by the nature of its economic system, have greater differences in wealth and income.
Bork, "Slouching Toward Gomorrah," ch 4



I should point out that Bork's brilliant book was published 20 years ago, and, since then, Sweden has moved to conservative economic principles.




a. What sort of equality makes sense?

"Political equality is what made America a land of opportunity. In a world where there were no special privileges and no special obstacles, each individual was free to rise as high as his ability and ambition would take him."
Fee, Op. Cit.



Instead, Liberals have put in charge, a man who has championed redistribution of wealth.

 

[initforme]

Liberalism created slavery in the US and even every founding father who owned them was a classic liberal lazy immoral person.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I should point out that Bork's brilliant book was published 20 years ago, and, since then, Sweden has moved to conservative economic principles.




.

And there's your Lie of the Year.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The OP's method of demonizing is to represent ideologies in their puristic forms and concepts. In reality, pure ideologists in people or countries are rare. Most people and countries adhere to a blending and mesh of ideologies, borrowing various concepts to fit their purposes. Those persons that represent purist views are negatively viewed as extremist and ideologues. Nations that adhere to purist ideologies are almost non-existent and the ones who attempt it destroy themselves over time or are in constant turmoil.

Note today's political atmosphere and even the reality of conservative vs liberal in America. Reagan, a conservative supported and even made efforts to save Social Security. Trump, a guy with a liberal background is promoting conservative ideas. His followers call themselves conservatives but are willing to go along with the liberal policies he promotes. Clinton has shown conservative values and is battling an opponent with far more liberal positions than she has ever displayed.

The OP will say all her facts are accurate and true, but accurate and true facts are easily distorted and taken out of context to create a false premise. It is the main method for creating conspiracy theories.

"The OP will say all her facts are accurate and true, but accurate and true facts are easily distorted and taken out of context to create a false premise. It is the main method for creating conspiracy theories."

Which of the following are "distorted and taken out of context"?

And, when it is clear that none are.....then my premise is confirmed.


Have a go:
1. "...take-home pay for many American workers has effectively fallen since the economic recovery began in 2009, according to a new study by an advocacy group that is to be released on Thursday.
The declines were greatest for the lowest-paid workers in sectors where hiring has been strong — home health care, food preparation and retailing — even though wages were already below average to begin with in those service industries.
“Stagnant wages are a problem for everyone at this point, but the imbalance in the economy has become more pronounced since the recession,”..."http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/03/b...rkers-see-biggest-drop-in-paychecks.html?_r=0


2."....US hourly wages have not only not increased for the past 7 years,but for thevast majority of the labor force continue to decline,.... just the month of August will be enough to provide the Trump - and every other - campaign with enough soundbites and pivot points to last it for weeks on end: namely,that in August a whopping 698,000 native-born Americans lost their job.This drop was offset by 204,000 foreign-born Americans, who got a job in the month of August. ....since December 2007, according to the Household Survey,only 790,000 native born Americanjobs have been added.Contrast that withthe 2.1 million foreign-born Americanswho have found a job over the same time period..."698K Native-Born Americans Lost Their Job In August: Why This Suddenly Is The Most Important Jobs Chart | Zero Hedge


3. October 2015: "Payrolls Disaster: Only 142K Jobs Added In September With Zero Wage Growth; August Revised Much Lower"Payrolls Disaster: Only 142K Jobs Added In September With Zero Wage Growth; August Revised Much Lower | Zero Hedge


4. "Obamacare health insurance co-ops surged past the $1 billion mark in losses this week, making history of sorts.The insolvencies, totaling $1.36 billion, mean that the co-ops have burned through more than half of theoriginal $2 billion appropriatedin 2010 for the program under the Affordable Care Act. The funds were loaned to the start-up co-ops in 2012 and were to be repaid in 15 years, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which manages Obamacare.
...13 of the 23 federally-financed Obamacare co-ops have officially failed in only two years. Most are in the process of default as insurance regulators attempt to pay customer’s medical bills, cover medical providers and pay other creditors.
Obamacare Co-Op Mess Causes $1.3 Billion In Losses


5."Obama Administration Announces 144 Big Regulations Right Before Thanksgiving
This is a new record, beating the previous high of 136 set by President Obama this spring."
Obama Administration Announces 144 Big Regulations Right Before Thanksgiving


6. "...ObamaCare experiment costing taxpayers $2.4 billionis failing. The co-ops were founded on the idealistic belief that community members could band together to create health insurance companies that would be member-driven, service-oriented, and would not have to answer to shareholders or turn a profit."
400,000 Citizens To Lose Health Insurance (Again) Because Of Obamacare Co-Op Failures



7. "The U.S. expanded at a 2.2% rate through the first nine months of the year, and the economy is projected to grow at a similar pace in the fourth quarter that ends on Dec. 31. If so, the economy will have failed to reach 3% growth for the 10th straight year, marking the slowest stretch since the end of World War II.
Historically the economy has expanded at a 3.3% rate."U.S. economy set to grow less than 3% for the 10th straight year


8. "Congress has now cleared the way for federal debt to pass$20 trillionby the end of the president’s second term. President Obama said the new budget deal will be paid for in a “balanced” and “responsible” way, but on the day the deal was signed, the federal debt jumped $339 billion—a third of a trillion dollars in one day."Societywatch


9.The GDPNow model forecast for real GDP growth (seasonally adjusted annual rate) in the fourth quarter of 2015 is 0.8 percent on January 8, down from 1.0 percent on January 6. The forecast for the contribution of inventory investment to fourth-quarter real GDP growth declined 0.2 percentage points to -0.8 percentage points after this morning's wholesale trade report from the U.S. Census Bureau.GDPNow


10. "Retail Sales in U.S. Decrease to End Weakest Year Since 2009Sales at U.S. retailers declined in December to wrap the weakest year since 2009, raising concern about the momentum in consumer spending heading into 2016. The 0.1 percent drop matched the median forecast of 84 economists surveyed by Bloomberg and followed a 0.4 percent gain in November, Commerce Department figures showed Friday in Washington. For all of 2015, purchases climbed 2.1 percent, the smallest advance of the current economic expansion."Retail Sales in U.S. Decrease to End Weakest Year Since 2009


11. " The federal government heavily subsidizes higher education through a complex system of grants and loans. While the programs are great for colleges — they haveenabledan astronomical increase in tuition — they contain few measures holding the institutions accountable to their students. As a result, only59 percentof students graduate from four-year colleges and universities within six years. Those lucky enough to graduate face another hurdle:44 percentof recent college graduates occupy jobs which do not require a college degree. Taken together, these numbers suggest that only one-third of college enrollees emerge from the system with both a degree and a relevant job." What "Free" College Can't Fix | Preston Cooper

12. Obama is the first President never to have had a year of 3% or better economic growth: "...annual growth during Obama’s “recovery” has never topped 3%. By comparison, it never fell below 3% during the Reagan recovery. And in the nine years following the 1990-91 recession, GDP grew faster than 3% in all but two. Heck, even Jimmy Carter had some strong growth years." President Obama’s Growth Gap Hits $1.31 Trillion

a. "The years since 2007 have been a macroeconomic disaster for the United States of a magnitude unprecedented since the Great Depression." Obama: Always Wrong, Never In Doubt

b. "....first president since Hoover to never have a single year above 3% GDP growth."Obama economy is 'amazing,' says hedge fund billionaire



13. According to the2016 Index of Economic Freedom, an annual publication by The Heritage Foundation, America’s economic freedom has tumbled. With losses of economic freedom in eight of the past nine years, the U.S. has tied its worst score ever, wiping out a decade of progress. Since early2009:

· Government spending has exploded, amounting to $29,867 per household in 2015.

· The national debt has risen to $125,000 for every tax filing household in America—a total over $18 trillion.

· The government takeover of health care is raising prices and disrupting markets.

· Bailouts and new government regulations have increased uncertainty, stifling investment and job creation. America’s Economic Freedom Has Rapidly Declined Under Obama

14 "Despite the unemployment rate being at an eight-year low (4.9 percent as of January 2016), the number of people on food stamps remains near an all-time high which was 47,636,000 in 2013.

Why the disparity in the numbers? Well, the unemployment rate does not take into account people who are not in, or have dropped out of, the workforce altogether.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported in January of this year that approximately 94 million Americans are not participating in the workforce.

We now have a country based on government dependence." Food Stamp Users Near Record High Despite Low Unemployment Rate

15. "CHICAGO (Reuters) - Predominantly African-American neighborhoods in Chicago have seen poverty rise and services diminish even as the nation's third largest city has become less racially segregated,.... black areas are seeing economic stagnation or decline,.... mostly black areas have lost health clinics, social service agencies and other areas of support..." Exclusive: Poverty up, services diminished in Chicago's black neighborhoods - study


16. "Employers added more workers in February than projected but wages unexpectedly declined, dashing hopes that reduced slack in the labor market was starting to benefit all Americans..... Average hourly earnings dropped by 0.1 percent from the prior month, the first decline since December 2014 the Labor Department’s figures showed. Worker pay increased 2.2 percent over the 12 months ended in February, less than the 2.5 percent forecast in the Bloomberg survey. Wage growth has been hovering just above 2 percent year-over-year on average since the current expansion began in mid-2009."http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-surge-while-wages-drop-in-mixed-jobs-report

17. New Obama regulation will deprive middle class investors of access to financial information. "...the controversial pending Department of Labor regulation that would impose new restrictions on a vast swath of financial professionals... a new report for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, similar restrictions in Great Britain have caused a “guidance gap” in which brokers have largely stopped serving customers with assets less than £150,000 ($240,000).... Such limits on financial discussion may seem to violate the First Amendment..." http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnber...l-broadcasters-like-dave-ramsey/#2962753ee696

“this Obama rule will kill the Middle Class and below ability to access personal advice.”

18. "U.S. retail sales dropped in February and the prior month’s gain was revised to adecline, calling into question the narrative that bigger gains in consumer spending would propel economic growth at the start of 2016. The 0.1 percent decline in purchases followed a revised 0.4 percent January decrease, Commerce Department figures showed Tuesday.... “We’re seeing higher rents, higher healthcare expenses,.... Retail sales excluding autos fell 0.1 percent after a 0.4 percent decrease in January, according to Tuesday’s report." http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-fell-in-february-after-january-revised-down

19. "That basic math is why middle class incomes have been in decline under Obama.The Census Bureau reports that since Obama became President 7 years ago, real median household income has fallen by $1,300 a year. Heritage Foundation Chief Economist Steve Moore explained in testimony before the Ways and Means Committee, “At 2 percent growth the economy doesn’t spin off enough jobs to increase wages, and tax revenues grow much too slowly to balance the budget.”

The recession officially ended more than 6 years ago. Wages and incomes have always grown in recoveries, not declined. Moreover, the American historical record is the deeper the recession, the stronger the recovery. The economy is supposed to boom in a recovery to catch up with its long term economic growth trendline. But over 6 years after the recession ended, that still has not happened. Instead, what we have gotten under President Obama is the worst recovery from a recession since the Great Depression."Realizing The Super Bowl Of American Economic Growth

20. "8 More Obamacare Co-ops Will Probably Shut Down

12 of the 23 taxpayer funded non-profit co-ops created under the Affordable Care Act were shuttered, and the largest of them isunder investigation.

Records obtained by Richard Pollack of theDaily Callerindicate another 8 co-ops might be on their way out this year:
'...there’s not a turnaround in sight. The same problems that plagued them before are continuing,”
8 More Obamacare Co-ops Will Probably Shut Down

21. the United States had lost its once-enormous global lead in middle-class pay, based on international income surveys over the last three decades.After-tax median income in Canada appears to have been higher last year than the same measure in this country. The poor in Canada and much of western Europe earn more than the poor here.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/29/u...dgety-boys-and-a-sputtering-economy.html?_r=0

22. Middle aged people laid off and unable to find work are taking another way out. They're killing themselves. Suicide rates are soaring, according to federal data released last week. Especially in economically depressed states and job-starved upstate New York. People in need of work are twice as likely to take their own lives as employed people, and people fired in their forties and fifties find it hardest to get hired again.
That makes boosting economic growth a life- and- death issue. But you wouldn't know it listening to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. President Obama whitewashes reality, claiming the "American economy is pretty darn good right now."
Soaring Suicides Emerge As a National Crisis Laid to Economic Stall - The New York Sun


23. "U.S. Economy Expands to 0.5% Pace, Weakest in Two Years
The U.S. economy expanded in the first quarter at the slowest pace in two years ....Gross domestic product rose at a 0.5 percent annualized rate after a 1.4 percent fourth-quarter advance, Commerce Department data showed Thursday. The increase was less than the 0.7 percent median projection in a Bloomberg survey and marked the third straight disappointing start to a year." http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...in-first-quarter-at-slowest-pace-in-two-years





"OBAMA: Anyone claiming that America's economy is in decline is peddling fiction.”http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...conomy_is_in_decline_is_peddling_fiction.html

 

[Camp]

Contemporary conservatism's fatal flaw is that it is represented by people like the OP. Its decline in popularity is attributable in large part to its repulsive messengers.

Now, to address the thread specifically, there is a direct correlation. The proliferation of repulsive representatives of conservatism has effectively opened the door for a strong lurch to the left, and that's precisely what we're seeing. Leftists - and I don't mean traditional liberals, I mean hardcore leftists - should thank their lucky stars for conservative talk radio and its faithful and obedient adherents, obviously including the OP. You're getting a valuable assist here.

Yes, the far left has become stronger and more emboldened, in large part because of the unattractive antics of the far right. And whatever weaknesses and flaws you may want to attribute to liberalism will manifest more quickly and more broadly because of people like the OP.

It's happening by comparison.
.

Oooo......based the point that you are struggling to purport, albeit ineffectually.....one can only conclude that you are the board equivalent of Jeb Bush trying to respond to brutal slapping around that I've been forced to administer to you.


Good to see a little life in you.
I attribute same to my efforts.


Bet you'll start to feel better about yourself.....and thank me for it.

And right on cue.
.

I'm not convinced that you are capable of a serious discussion....after all, you've never produced even a single thoughtful post....but, OK...I'll call you on it.

"Contemporary conservatism's fatal flaw is that it is represented by people like the OP."

Classical liberalism, the view of the Founders, and what would be called conservatism today, is based on individualism, free markets, and limited constitutional government.

Now....go right ahead and put your foot in your mouth: explain why you have a problem with these doctrines.



Well????

Please try to focus here, because I'll make this as clear as I can.

Your question is an absolutely perfect example of my point. Here is PRECISELY what you said, because I will copy and paste it (you know all about that):

Now....go right ahead and put your foot in your mouth: explain why you have a problem with these doctrines.

If you were capable of reading my post without the traditional perception distortions suffered by hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum, you would realize that I did not refer to ANY "doctrine" at ANY time in my post.

Again, for clarity, because I know you're going to deflect - it was not about doctrine, it was about behavior. Get it?

My point was clear - to anyone whose perceptions are not distorted by partisan ideology, anyway - that the problem is the messenger. The message is different than the messenger, do you understand that? The message is a different thing than the way it is presented, do you understand that?

I'm guessing not.

With every post, hardcore partisan ideologues illustrate the very behaviors to which I constantly refer. And more, your behaviors are so similar! Left or Right, it doesn't matter. You are the problem.
.

She answered you with her SOP. She responded with a huge cut and paste post that will not only deflect, but quickly put your comments on the back page as her huge post buries yours. She wants to minimize the folks who might read your post.

 

[initforme]

POLITICAL EQUALITY does not exist once big money enters the picture. Crony capitalism and inside deals and lobbyists with millions of dollars in my eyes have made a once great system a laughing stock circus. It is entertaining though.

 

[Mac1958]

Contemporary conservatism's fatal flaw is that it is represented by people like the OP. Its decline in popularity is attributable in large part to its repulsive messengers.

Now, to address the thread specifically, there is a direct correlation. The proliferation of repulsive representatives of conservatism has effectively opened the door for a strong lurch to the left, and that's precisely what we're seeing. Leftists - and I don't mean traditional liberals, I mean hardcore leftists - should thank their lucky stars for conservative talk radio and its faithful and obedient adherents, obviously including the OP. You're getting a valuable assist here.

Yes, the far left has become stronger and more emboldened, in large part because of the unattractive antics of the far right. And whatever weaknesses and flaws you may want to attribute to liberalism will manifest more quickly and more broadly because of people like the OP.

It's happening by comparison.
.

Oooo......based the point that you are struggling to purport, albeit ineffectually.....one can only conclude that you are the board equivalent of Jeb Bush trying to respond to brutal slapping around that I've been forced to administer to you.


Good to see a little life in you.
I attribute same to my efforts.


Bet you'll start to feel better about yourself.....and thank me for it.

And right on cue.
.

I'm not convinced that you are capable of a serious discussion....after all, you've never produced even a single thoughtful post....but, OK...I'll call you on it.

"Contemporary conservatism's fatal flaw is that it is represented by people like the OP."

Classical liberalism, the view of the Founders, and what would be called conservatism today, is based on individualism, free markets, and limited constitutional government.

Now....go right ahead and put your foot in your mouth: explain why you have a problem with these doctrines.



Well????

Please try to focus here, because I'll make this as clear as I can.

Your question is an absolutely perfect example of my point. Here is PRECISELY what you said, because I will copy and paste it (you know all about that):

Now....go right ahead and put your foot in your mouth: explain why you have a problem with these doctrines.

If you were capable of reading my post without the traditional perception distortions suffered by hardcore partisan ideologues on both ends of the spectrum, you would realize that I did not refer to ANY "doctrine" at ANY time in my post.

Again, for clarity, because I know you're going to deflect - it was not about doctrine, it was about behavior. Get it?

My point was clear - to anyone whose perceptions are not distorted by partisan ideology, anyway - that the problem is the messenger. The message is different than the messenger, do you understand that? The message is a different thing than the way it is presented, do you understand that?

I'm guessing not.

With every post, hardcore partisan ideologues illustrate the very behaviors to which I constantly refer. And more, your behaviors are so similar! Left or Right, it doesn't matter. You are the problem.
.

She answered you with her SOP. She responded with a huge cut and paste post that will not only deflect, but quickly put your comments on the back page as her huge post buries yours. She wants to minimize the folks who might read your post.

She never provides direct answers or direct responses.

I suspect this stuff is more for her self-esteem, that she fancies herself some kind of online Limbaugh.

Hey, if that helps, I guess that's good.
.

 

[NYcarbineer]

6. Under the new definition, an exact similarity of material wealth or income should be the goal of ‘social justice.’



By the 20th century, the new ‘equality’ became a threat to freedom. FDR’s New Deal and Truman’s Fair Deal claimed the rectification of inequalities as within the purview of government.

LBJ’s Great Society championed the redistribution of wealth and status in the name of equality. Realize that the concomitant movement toward collectivism meant a decline in the freedoms of business, private associations, families, and individuals.

The accession of these views, equality vs. freedom, means that there can be no free market, for that would always result in inequalities. Compared to nations such as Sweden, the United States will, by the nature of its economic system, have greater differences in wealth and income.
Bork, "Slouching Toward Gomorrah," ch 4



I should point out that Bork's brilliant book was published 20 years ago, and, since then, Sweden has moved to conservative economic principles.




a. What sort of equality makes sense?

"Political equality is what made America a land of opportunity. In a world where there were no special privileges and no special obstacles, each individual was free to rise as high as his ability and ambition would take him."
Fee, Op. Cit.



Instead, Liberals have put in charge, a man who has championed redistribution of wealth.

Socialism redistributes the wealth that capitalism has distributed unfairly.

1. No ideology has ever been as good at the use of propaganda as the modern iteration of liberalism....

You finally admit that your propaganda sucks?

She posts nothing but propaganda and then makes the statement above. A classic RWnut.

 

[NYcarbineer]

5. The promise of Liberalism....material equality is powerful inducement....it removes the need for personal responsibility, or the work effort.


"Radical egalitarianism owes much to the oh-so-simplistic notion that if social processes were fair, all races and ethnic groups and both sexes would be represented proportionately in all areas. This view decides that the absence of equality of results must mean that the equality of opportunity has been denied.

Demands for complete equality can often be traced to factors such as self-pity, envy, a search for meaning in an otherwise boring existence, and a lack of acceptance of hard work and determination. It is frequently easier to win perks in court, than to earn them."
Bork, "Slouching Toward Gomorrah."



Sociologist Helmut Schoeck’s observation: “Since the end of the Second World War, however, a new ‘ethic’ has come into being, according to which the envious man is perfectly acceptable. Progressively fewer individuals and groups are ashamed of their envy, but instead make out that its existence in their temperaments axiomatically proves the existence of ‘social injustice,’ which must be eliminated for their benefit.”

Schoeck discusses a young man whose repressed envy of his hosts and their possessions, made him extremely uncomfortable at their dinner party. “This type of personality can help us to understand the world-wide rebellion of youth since 1966. As the ‘envious guests,’… these young people lack the maturity to be the ‘guests of our affluent society.’”
Helmut Schoeck, “Envy: A Theory of Social Behavior,” p. 337-338


Liberals are the 'envious guests' in America.

Robert Bork is dead. Bernie Sanders is alive.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

1. No ideology has ever been as good at the use of propaganda as the modern iteration of liberalism.
This is why it remains the most dynamic religion of our age.

Most important is to bear in mind that nothing could be further from the attitudes and values under which America was created, than that very ideology, Modern Liberalism.

Classical liberalism, the views if the Founders, what would be called conservatism today, is based on individualism, free markets, and limited constitutional government.

Modern Liberalism finds at its center, material equality.
That is its fatal flaw.


2. "The division between classical and modern liberals is often represented as paralleling the tension between liberty and equality. Where classical liberalism saw individual liberty as the driving force behind peace and prosperity, the modern variety puts more emphasis on equality." Who Cares about Inequality? | Don Watkins


3. To see the roots of 'Liberalism," and its commections to material equality, know this:
"Every Leftist is, essentially, a Marxist…even though most eschew the title since the fall of the Soviet Union. Even so, Left-wing ideas are predicated on Marx’s materialist view. Philosophically, the term implies that only material things are real.

The Left’s concept of materialism broadens into the overarching desire to see every individual materially equal. The Left is less interested in creating wealth than in distributing it, and has been far more interested in fighting material inequality than tyranny, which is why Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc., tend to have the support of Leftists around the world."
Dennis Prager




4. "The only kind of equality that is possible is also the only kind that matters: political equality. Political equality refers to equality of rights. Before the creation of the United States, every system of government had taken for granted that some people were entitled to rule others, taking away their freedom and property whenever some allegedly “greater good” demanded it.

The Founders rejected that notion. Each individual, they held, is to be regarded by the government as having the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as any other individual. So long as he didn’t violate other people’s rights, he was free to set his own course and live on his own terms.

..... the Founders transformed the state from an instrument of oppression into an instrument of liberation: it liberated the individual so that he was free to make the most of his life."
Fee, Op. Cit.


Yet, there are still enough gullible voters who imagine that things will only be taken away from others....and given to them.
They're called Liberals.

The fatal flaw of the thread premise is that it fails as a straw man fallacy.

This thread is yet another tedious example of the propensity of most on the right to contrive lies concerning ‘liberals’ in an effort to misrepresent what ‘liberals’ believe, and then attack the lie contrived and declare a false and hollow ‘victory.’

 

[Mac1958]

Hardcore partisan ideologues do love to trot out the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments.

Both ends.
.

 

[there4eyeM]

Are you admitting this:
Modern Liberalism finds at its center, material equality.
That is its fatal flaw.

"If it makes you happy, I'm still not sure what liberalism actually is"

'Liberalism' is whatever one hates and/or disagrees with if one is 'conservative'. If one is 'liberal', 'conservative is whatever one hates and/or disagrees with.
In either case, the others are 'Nazis'.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The OP thinks liberals want everyone to have equal incomes and material possessions?

I'm a liberal. I don't want that. Maybe I'm a classical liberal?

She creates outrageous strawmen, and other aburdities, such as calling JFK a Communist, Joe Biden a Nazi, and Winston Churchill a Bolshevik,

because she can't even come close to winning an argument with reality.