Let's talk about God

[JOKER96BRAVO]

So is the entity known as God fallible because he is subject to circumstance?

 

[dmp]

So is the entity known as God fallible because he is subject to circumstance?

where would you get this idea?


fwiw, people who don't 'know' God can get a somewhat-decent example of concepts such as these asked in this thread by watching Bruce Almighty.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

It was just a question.
But let me tell you how I thought of it.
If God is all knowing and powerful than how come his plan is altered by our
personal decisions??? That makes him subject to circumstance doesn’t it???
He can’t be all knowing and powerful by knowing what we will choose to do
vs allowing us the free will to choose what we do. If he knows what I will choose
to do then it’s part a plan or it’s not free will. If I make the wrong decisions and I
go to hell and he knew what I would choose then that means he made me that
way, made me for hell right??? If his plan is in fact altered by my free will then he has no plan, therefore he can’t be all knowing and powerful.

 

[eric]

Gentlemen, just an idea to consider:

We are making the assumption that time is linear and constant. This is completely false, as PROVEN by science. Consider the idea that to God everything that has ever happened, is happening now, and will happen, does so in a single point in time, we just perceive it differently. This can explain many of the questions we ask.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Gentlemen, just an idea to consider:

We are making the assumption of that time is linear and constant. This is completely false, as PROVEN by science. Consider the idea that to God everything that has ever happened, is happening now, and will happen, does so in a single point in time, we just perceive it differently. This can explain many of the questions we ask.

Considering this, my question is still of some importance to me.
Even if God was seeing present time as the past and planning our future,
how can you possibly do that if we still have free will? You can't see what is to
come for sure, only what might be. This changes with every action, every breath,
every time I choose to step right instead of left.

 

[eric]

Joker, you entirely missed my point. It is not that God perceives time differently then us. To him, there IS NO TIME, everthing happens in an instant. So there is no future planning. It all depends if God is bound by the laws of our physical universe. If he is not then time would have no meaning, for there would be no time. Always keep in mind that time and distance are not constants, but relatives.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Not the time thing that really perplexes me, It's the whole free will idea.

 

[eric]

But with what I am proposing, you can not separate the two. It is the answer to your question. Now I am not saying this is correct, but to me, it is the only viable answer to the question.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

In order to impose or let me say implement a plan for us would he still
need to know the outcome for our decisions???

How can this be if it's not planned???

I would think (just me thinking) that God would have to wait for me to take
my own path before issuing the results or consequinces.

 

[dmp]

It was just a question.
But let me tell you how I thought of it.
If God is all knowing and powerful than how come his plan is altered by our
personal decisions???

Again - God's plan is NOT Altered by our decisions. He knows our decisions before we do.


Think of time as cirular. Looking down on the circle, you can reach any point on the cirlce. God can see us at every point in our lives, and thus, knows what decisions we'll be making to bring us along thru life.

 

[eric]

Knowing the decisions we are going to make in no way invalidates free will anyway. We are still making the decisions, he just knows what they will be. A silly example would be knowing your child so well that you know the decisions they will make. Of course this is a simplistic example, but extend the idea, by taking away our human limitations, and then is it so hard to see, really ?

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Still invalidates free will. He is planning for the decisions I WILL make.
It's not free will if he knows the outcome it's planned. You can't say that
right now he knew I was going to type the word "GOAT", if he did it's part
of his plan and I didn't really choose to type it did I.

 

[dmp]

Still invalidates free will. He is planning for the decisions I WILL make.
It's not free will if he knows the outcome it's planned. You can't say that
right now he knew I was going to type the word "GOAT", if he did it's part
of his plan and I didn't really choose to type it did I.

It IS free will.

I KNOW my kids will come running to me, when I get home. My daughter will be waiting in the door way and jump up and give me a HUGE hug. My son will come running over, after, from the couch.

I know this will happen.

I do not 'cause' it to happen.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

So the power to make what really happens lies within your kids???
What if they change their minds?

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

In the case that the power to choose my own path lies within myself,
The verdict will still make God's plan circumstantial no matter what he knows
based on the fact that I will ultimately create my life.
Therefore he can't be all powerful because he doesn't decide what
happens to me since I choose.

 

[dmp]

So the power to make what really happens lies within your kids???
What if they change their minds?

I know they will not. It was an 'example' for you of sort of how God knows WHAT we will choose to do - he doesn't FORCE us to choose what we will do.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

I know they will not. It was an 'example' for you of sort of how God knows WHAT we will choose to do - he doesn't FORCE us to choose what we will do.

But you have no control over the fact that they can change their mind.
You cannot force them to do this everyday. Your knowledge of what they will
do is based on what they have done. So if you drop your briefcase at the
door to catch your daughter, and she chooses one day no to do it then you have
to change your plan huh?

 

[dmp]

But you have no control over the fact that they can change their mind.
You cannot force them to do this everyday. Your knowledge of what they will
do is based on what they have done. So if you drop your briefcase at the
door to catch your daughter, and she chooses one day no to do it then you have
to change your plan huh?

Ever heard the question "Can't see the forrest for all the trees?"

You are getting lost in the minutia of my example and are missing the point.

I 'know' how my kids will behave when I come home. But "I" am not God.


'God' on the other hand would know if my kids will come running when I get home - or not. God doesn't 'force' them or 'react' to their decision. Why? Because God already knows the choice they will make. As I tried to illustrate before, God knows because He can see our lives as a WHOLE. He can look at any point of our life he chooses. He watches us make our choices, but is never surprised at them.

 

[5stringJeff]

It was just a question.
But let me tell you how I thought of it.
If God is all knowing and powerful than how come his plan is altered by our
personal decisions??? That makes him subject to circumstance doesn’t it???
He can’t be all knowing and powerful by knowing what we will choose to do
vs allowing us the free will to choose what we do. If he knows what I will choose
to do then it’s part a plan or it’s not free will. If I make the wrong decisions and I
go to hell and he knew what I would choose then that means he made me that
way, made me for hell right??? If his plan is in fact altered by my free will then he has no plan, therefore he can’t be all knowing and powerful.

Again, God's plan (or His will) is a big picture: to provide for the salvation of the fallen human race. But part of that will is for us to choose to be saved. God may know that you will not choose to accept His plan of salavtion (Jesus) but He has still provided you with the chance. Everyone is provided with that chance (and for the guy stuck on a desert island who never head about Jesus, see Romans chapters 1-2), and so everyone gets to choose whether or not to accept God's plan or not accept it. It doesn't mean that God is any less powerful or any less knowledgable. It means that He is not going ot force anyone into a particular choice.

 

[5stringJeff]

In the case that the power to choose my own path lies within myself,
The verdict will still make God's plan circumstantial no matter what he knows
based on the fact that I will ultimately create my life.
Therefore he can't be all powerful because he doesn't decide what
happens to me since I choose.

I think you are missing the point. God doesn't care whether you type "GOAT" or whether you have pancakes for breakfast or whether you cross the road without looking both ways. God has delegated power over our own lives to us. He could very easily force you to become a Christian; but again, that's not what He is in this for. God wants us to come to Him of our own will.