Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

[Navy1960]

the big three negotiated lower salaries for their employees already....by 2010 uaw employees will be comparable to the foreign automakers manufacturing here in America with their compensation, is what i heard tonight....so this makes me think the republican PUSH to put them in to Chapter 11 is solely to BREAK the union, PERIOD.

i had no idea the UAWs had already given up concessions a year or two ago to become affective 2010.....so to make these companies stronger and not overburdened with their compensation.... then i hear the UAWs had not had a raise in 4 years too....haven't confirmed that yet, but if true....then THE WORKERS aren't even a PART of this problem...

the banking crisis could be the problem, they can't make it thru this recession without a loan, and the banks won't loan it....not to them and not to anyone, they are using the bailout money to BUY OUT smaller banks, making them even BIGGER, and ''too BIG to fail'' in the future if they mess up again so expect another bailout for them AGAIN, in 20 years, with their NEXT scam....we bailed them out in 1987/88 in the ''savings and loan'' crisis.....and now, they are NOT USING THE BAILOUT MONEY to ease credit on main street....for mainstreet, as in the BIG 3.... imo!

man oh man, THANK GOD, I am a woman and can get away with this flip flopping!!! hahahahaha! after all, as a woman, i have the perogative to change my mind!!!!!

so, i am back to loaning them the money....from the bailout money!!! with all those requirements that Navy mentioned a few posts up!!!



care

I'm sorry Care but while the UAW has made consessions with the big 3 recently thats true it still does not allow for the companies that they work for to be competitive at all. Let me give you one example .
Section 22. Paid Holiday Plan
(a) General Eligibility Rules
Unless otherwise provided herein, employees who meet
all of the eligibility rules below will be paid eight (8)
hours’ pay at their regular straight-time hourly rate
including shift premium and seven-day operations bonus
but excluding overtime premium for:
ARTICLE IX WAGES AND OTHER ECONOMIC MATTERS
115
November 16, 2007 Veterans Day,
November 22, 2007 Thanksgiving Day,
November 23, 2007 Day After Thanksgiving,
December 24, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 25, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 26, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 27, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 28, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 31, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 1, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 21, 2008 Martin Luther King, Jr. Day,
March 21, 2008 Good Friday,
March 24, 2008 Day After Easter,
May 26, 2008 Memorial Day,
July 4, 2008 Independence Day,
September 1, 2008 Labor Day,
November 4, 2008 Federal Election Day,
November 14, 2008 Veterans Day,
November 27, 2008 Thanksgiving Day,
November 28, 2008 Day After Thanksgiving,
December 24, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 25, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 26, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 29, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 30, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 31, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 1, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 2, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 19, 2009 Martin Luther King, Jr. Day,
April 10, 2009 Good Friday,
April 13, 2009 Day After Easter,
May 25, 2009 Memorial Day,
July 3, 2009 Friday Before Independence
Day,
September 7, 2009 Labor Day,
November 16, 2009 Veterans Day,
November 26, 2009 Thanksgiving Day,
November 27, 2009 Day After Thanksgiving,
December 24, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 25, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 28, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,

Those are the holiday pay periods for UAW Ford employee's paid full scale I am going to put the agreement link here for all to take a look at as it is over 300 pages long. When a company has to enter into a 300 page agreement where the UAW makes all wage decisions there are some issues involved here. The UAW shares responsibility in the downfall of these once great companies as much as the Senior management does. While I don't blame the average line worker for this, how can you blame anyone for accepting what is given to them year after year, to the point where it becomes expected? More so you blame the Union representation that has for years not taken into consideration the survival of the companies that their members work for when entering into these agreements , but have instead gone about beating this buy American drum to now it has become laughable, when the very same so called American car companies build as many cars in foreign countries as does the so called foreign car companies and the so called foreign car companies build cars here, and do it better, cheaper, and pay their employee's a decent wage compared to the Cost of Living in the Areas they are in. This is not an attempt to "Bust the Union" however economically speaking the UAW as pretty much done that on their own, it is rather more so telling the auto companies that business as usual will no longer do and that Chapter 11 is one way to facilitate that.

Section 1. Recognition; ‘‘Contract Unit’’
(a) The Company recognizes the Union as the exclusive
collective bargaining representative relative to rates of
pay, wages, hours of employment, and other conditions
of employment, for all employees of the Company in the
Contract Unit.

http://uawlap.org/dl/vol-1.pdf

 

[Care4all]

I'm sorry Care but while the UAW has made consessions with the big 3 recently thats true it still does not allow for the companies that they work for to be competitive at all. Let me give you one example .
Section 22. Paid Holiday Plan
(a) General Eligibility Rules
Unless otherwise provided herein, employees who meet
all of the eligibility rules below will be paid eight (8)
hours’ pay at their regular straight-time hourly rate
including shift premium and seven-day operations bonus
but excluding overtime premium for:
ARTICLE IX WAGES AND OTHER ECONOMIC MATTERS
115
November 16, 2007 Veterans Day,
November 22, 2007 Thanksgiving Day,
November 23, 2007 Day After Thanksgiving,
December 24, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 25, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 26, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 27, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 28, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 31, 2007 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 1, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 21, 2008 Martin Luther King, Jr. Day,
March 21, 2008 Good Friday,
March 24, 2008 Day After Easter,
May 26, 2008 Memorial Day,
July 4, 2008 Independence Day,
September 1, 2008 Labor Day,
November 4, 2008 Federal Election Day,
November 14, 2008 Veterans Day,
November 27, 2008 Thanksgiving Day,
November 28, 2008 Day After Thanksgiving,
December 24, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 25, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 26, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 29, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 30, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 31, 2008 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 1, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 2, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
January 19, 2009 Martin Luther King, Jr. Day,
April 10, 2009 Good Friday,
April 13, 2009 Day After Easter,
May 25, 2009 Memorial Day,
July 3, 2009 Friday Before Independence
Day,
September 7, 2009 Labor Day,
November 16, 2009 Veterans Day,
November 26, 2009 Thanksgiving Day,
November 27, 2009 Day After Thanksgiving,
December 24, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 25, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,
December 28, 2009 Christmas Holiday Period,

Those are the holiday pay periods for UAW Ford employee's paid full scale I am going to put the agreement link here for all to take a look at as it is over 300 pages long. When a company has to enter into a 300 page agreement where the UAW makes all wage decisions there are some issues involved here. The UAW shares responsibility in the downfall of these once great companies as much as the Senior management does. While I don't blame the average line worker for this, how can you blame anyone for accepting what is given to them year after year, to the point where it becomes expected? More so you blame the Union representation that has for years not taken into consideration the survival of the companies that their members work for when entering into these agreements , but have instead gone about beating this buy American drum to now it has become laughable, when the very same so called American car companies build as many cars in foreign countries as does the so called foreign car companies and the so called foreign car companies build cars here, and do it better, cheaper, and pay their employee's a decent wage compared to the Cost of Living in the Areas they are in. This is not an attempt to "Bust the Union" however economically speaking the UAW as pretty much done that on their own, it is rather more so telling the auto companies that business as usual will no longer do and that Chapter 11 is one way to facilitate that.

Section 1. Recognition; ‘‘Contract Unit’’
(a) The Company recognizes the Union as the exclusive
collective bargaining representative relative to rates of
pay, wages, hours of employment, and other conditions
of employment, for all employees of the Company in the
Contract Unit.

http://uawlap.org/dl/vol-1.pdf

Navy, at the last corporation that i worked for, we got 12 paid holidays, 2 paid personal days, and 15 days vacation, after 5 years that went to 20 days vacation.....

In addition to this, we got off the week between Christmas and new years.....now granted, this was not a guarantee or part of our compensation package, but every year i worked there, the corpororate office went in to safe mode and operated with just a minimum staff, and most ALL of us, especially at my level, got the time off.

When, my position along with others was downsized, I was paid for 6 months, full pay, along with them paying all of my benefits during that time including my healthcare as severence....what was part of the contract was 2 weeks for every year one worked for them, BUT for me that would have been only 6 weeks since i worked for them for only 3 years, but they paid me 6 months....with a non competitive agreement, that i would NOT go to work for a competitor of theirs or give away company ''secrets'' during that period and if i promised not to sue them for downsizing me.

What i am trying to say is, THIS IS THE CORPORATE world....this is how it works out there.....at least in the north. I was NOT a union employee, the corporation did not have any union workers other than in their warehouses.

The corporation did evaluate other comparable union jobs and devised a payscale for all of their different positions to be COMPARABLE to the Union wages and benefits... offered within the state. (massachusetts)

They actually had a staff of two, that did this job of making certain their payscales for each position, were comparable so that they could pull in and get the best workers out there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now, getting back to your position on this issue....

Ask yourself this....
WHY IS IT that YOU are sooooooooooo concerned with what the Union workers make for a living in their Blue Collar jobs and you DID NOT GIVE a rats ass about what the White Collar workers were making at AIG who got bailed out? Or how much the workers at Bear Sterns that got bailed out, or the workers at Faniie mae, or Freddie?

What is it that makes you SOOOOOOOOOOOO against the amount that these auto workers make for a living while you are not concerned with what the people at aig make which is MORE LIKE $100 BUCKS AN HOUR OR MORE for them to just sit at a desk?

To me, this is NOTHING but wanting to BUST THE UNION...it is clear as day!

now, i am not saying this is what you personally believe, that white collar workers should get SPECIAL preference and we should NEVER question what those workers make... or will ever say that AIG went down and bankrupt because of what they paid their employees.....yet you and others are spending endless hours fighting to reduce these workers salaries and bust their union?????

WHY are the employees at AIG, the White Collar workers given some pedestal while your criticism of an ACTUAL WORKER's pay at a blue collar job is criticized from here to high heaven?

Did you blaim AIG's failure on their workers?

care

 

[sealybobo]

FDR fucked up the economy so much the only way out was war.

Don't Trust the Brain Trust - Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. - Mises Institute

This guy wrote a book on FDR. He was on NPR explaining that no, FDR was not perfect.

On the Daily Show last night they had a guy on who wrote a book about Andrew Jackson. That guy was crazy! He makes Bush look like a puppy dog. He had over 10 duels in his life. One man insulted his wife so he let the guy shoot first, Jackson took one in the chest, and then he killed the man. Jackson died years later with that bullet still in his chest. I think they also said that Jackson killed Charles Dickins??? I'll have to confirm that though.

And we think politics are dirty today.

But as for the Big 3. I'm starting to think that Detroit & the Big 3 have to part ways. If they have to compete with non union car companies, they must go where labor is cheaper. I don't mean Mexico either. I mean places like W. Virginia where the average income is lower than most other states. That way $15 hr. is good money to the people working there and jobs stay in America. Either that or Toyota and Honda employees need to unionize. Of course I prefer they stay in Michigan and continue to pay pensions and $35hr wages, but if that isn't possible, then at least keep the jobs in America.

I agree, they should not be forced to stay in Michigan and continue to pay such high wages if they can go down south and pay less. That only makes sense.

But I hope you realize my intentions are to keep wages high for us. That's not a bad thing, right? Our middle class needs to stay the envy of the rest of the world. I don't want to have to compete with Mexican or chinese labor/wages. Corporations are clearly cutting into our wages, or at least not paying us more to keep up with inflation, and at the same time paying the CEO's and VP's 6 & 7 figure salaries. That's not right. If anyone deserves the extra money, it's us. The CEO making $1 million a year can do without the bonus.

And when these companies start profitting again, will they give the employees that took a pay cut a pay raise without force or strike? I doubt it. So to me it is a slippery slope. You don't want to bend over and take it when a company says they can't afford anymore but at the same time you see they are being irresponsible with their money, such as the $40k retreats the CEO's from AIG went on. Or when the CEO of Ford has a corporate airplane.

 

[Skull Pilot]

AIG should have gone down the shitter just like Ford, GM and Chrysler should.

It is NOT the government's business to buy and bail out private enterprises that are poorly run. And my tax dollars certainly shouldn't be used to do it.

 

[DavidS]

AIG should have gone down the shitter just like Ford, GM and Chrysler should.

It is NOT the government's business to buy and bail out private enterprises that are poorly run. And my tax dollars certainly shouldn't be used to do it.

Fuck AIG. Fuck 'em! They were $60 a year ago! In late October they were at $1.83. Now they're at $1.56.

 

[sealybobo]

the big three negotiated lower salaries for their employees already....by 2010 uaw employees will be comparable to the foreign automakers manufacturing here in America with their compensation, is what i heard tonight....so this makes me think the republican PUSH to put them in to Chapter 11 is solely to BREAK the union, PERIOD.

i had no idea the UAWs had already given up concessions a year or two ago to become affective 2010.....so to make these companies stronger and not overburdened with their compensation.... then i hear the UAWs had not had a raise in 4 years too....haven't confirmed that yet, but if true....then THE WORKERS aren't even a PART of this problem...

the banking crisis could be the problem, they can't make it thru this recession without a loan, and the banks won't loan it....not to them and not to anyone, they are using the bailout money to BUY OUT smaller banks, making them even BIGGER, and ''too BIG to fail'' in the future if they mess up again so expect another bailout for them AGAIN, in 20 years, with their NEXT scam....we bailed them out in 1987/88 in the ''savings and loan'' crisis.....and now, they are NOT USING THE BAILOUT MONEY to ease credit on main street....for mainstreet, as in the BIG 3.... imo!

man oh man, THANK GOD, I am a woman and can get away with this flip flopping!!! hahahahaha! after all, as a woman, i have the perogative to change my mind!!!!!

so, i am back to loaning them the money....from the bailout money!!! with all those requirements that Navy mentioned a few posts up!!!



care

You are correct. Give this very smart and attractive woman a cigar.

The Southern Republicans want to break the unions. Also, they are pushing back because they don't want to have to go back home and explain to Honda, Toyota & BMW why they just gave the competition billions of dollars.

The Big 3 are America's car companies. Just like Exxon is an American oil company. That has to mean something. If people are happy that Exxon is over in Iraq making a fortune, then they should also be rooting for the Big 3 here at home. It's patriotic.

The Democrats need to make this a patriotic issue. You know the Republicans would if they were in charge.

 

[Care4all]

AIG should have gone down the shitter just like Ford, GM and Chrysler should.

It is NOT the government's business to buy and bail out private enterprises that are poorly run. And my tax dollars certainly shouldn't be used to do it.

BUT THEY WERE USED to do so.....for AIG, BEARSTERNS, FANNIE, FREDDIE, MERYLL, GOLDMAN SACHS....etc etc etc.....

WHAT makes them more important than GM or Ford etc?

WHAT????? White collar business verses blue collar business? WHAT makes AIG so special and WHY NOT complain about what their workers are getting paid, WHICH IS MUCH MORE than the auto workers?

WHY are they SPECIAL and the BIG THREE are not?

If the banks were given our tax monies to ease the credit market and loan money to businesses in need of such, WHY wouldn't gm or ford or chrysler BE PART OF THAT and get the money loaned to them by the banks we gave the money to, TO LOAN OUT?


I just do not understand what is going on here and why these banks are not loaning the money out that they are suppose to do, to save mainstreet?

Under any other times, i would say, NO WAY, JOSE'.....but since the credit market is still in a logjam and NOT doing what Paulson thought it would with giving them our billions in tax dollars, and because we are at the edge of a depression, i think we honestly can not afford 3 million additional people on the UE lines...and the reprocussions from this to follow....

Chapter 11 will make all of the vendors that have been selling to the big 3 NOT GET PAID for all that they have sold to the big 3.....this hurts all the industries around the big 3....this could wipe out alot of related businesses???

Care

 

[editec]

I drive a Ford pickup truck.

It gets between 25 and 30 MPG dpending on conditions.

Sweet little ride.

Now which foreign truck I could have bought in 2004 would have given me better value for my money?

None that I'm aware of.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are correct. Give this very smart and attractive woman a cigar.

The Southern Republicans want to break the unions. Also, they are pushing back because they don't want to have to go back home and explain to Honda, Toyota & BMW why they just gave the competition billions of dollars.

The Big 3 are America's car companies. Just like Exxon is an American oil company. That has to mean something. If people are happy that Exxon is over in Iraq making a fortune, then they should also be rooting for the Big 3 here at home. It's patriotic.

The Democrats need to make this a patriotic issue. You know the Republicans would if they were in charge.

Now you're in love with Exxon?

That evil company that gets rich on the backs of poor Americans?

That company that should be taxed into oblivion?

The company that's killing the earth?

Well at least Exxon isn't picking my pocket because they don't know how to run a profitable business.

Only a fucking Dimocrat would say bailing out a bunch of failed companies with tax payer money is patriotic.

 

[DavidS]

I drive a Ford pickup truck.

It gets between 25 and 30 MPG dpending on conditions.

Sweet little ride.

Now which foreign truck I could have bought in 2004 would have given me better value for my money?

None that I'm aware of.

Ford is second to none in trucks. You drive a Ranger?

 

[Skull Pilot]

BUT THEY WERE USED to do so.....for AIG, BEARSTERNS, FANNIE, FREDDIE, MERYLL, GOLDMAN SACHS....etc etc etc.....

WHAT makes them more important than GM or Ford etc?

WHAT????? White collar business verses blue collar business? WHAT makes AIG so special and WHY NOT complain about what their workers are getting paid, WHICH IS MUCH MORE than the auto workers?

WHY are they SPECIAL and the BIG THREE are not?

If the banks were given our tax monies to ease the credit market and loan money to businesses in need of such, WHY wouldn't gm or ford or chrysler BE PART OF THAT and get the money loaned to them by the banks we gave the money to, TO LOAN OUT?


I just do not understand what is going on here and why these banks are not loaning the money out that they are suppose to do, to save mainstreet?

Under any other times, i would say, NO WAY, JOSE'.....but since the credit market is still in a logjam and NOT doing what Paulson thought it would with giving them our billions in tax dollars, and because we are at the edge of a depression, i think we honestly can not afford 3 million additional people on the UE lines...and the reprocussions from this to follow....

Chapter 11 will make all of the vendors that have been selling to the big 3 NOT GET PAID for all that they have sold to the big 3.....this hurts all the industries around the big 3....this could wipe out alot of related businesses???

Care

So 2, 3, 4, 5,..........1,200,000,000,000 wrongs make a right?

 

[sealybobo]

AIG should have gone down the shitter just like Ford, GM and Chrysler should.

It is NOT the government's business to buy and bail out private enterprises that are poorly run. And my tax dollars certainly shouldn't be used to do it.

Wouldn't Toyota & Honda love that.

So you are clearly in favor of America not manufacturing anything ever again? Or at least until Americans are willing to work for $3 a day. When we get to that point, you'll be all for manufacturing here again?

What you fail to realize is that Americans are the consumers. We have the power. The power to not buy because we no longer make the kind of money that good consumers typically make. And we see the top 1% sure couldn't keep the economy going. So much for trickle down.

So why did we allow Honda & Toyota to come into America to compete against our American car manufacturers? Are you willing to sell your soul just to get cheaper products?

I bet you are also ok with illegals coming here to do construction and landscaping too because it'll save the owners & the consumers $?

Nothiing is out of the bounds as long as it'll save a buck? Even polluting?

 

[sealybobo]

Now you're in love with Exxon?

That evil company that gets rich on the backs of poor Americans?

That company that should be taxed into oblivion?

The company that's killing the earth?

Well at least Exxon isn't picking my pocket because they don't know how to run a profitable business.

Only a fucking Dimocrat would say bailing out a bunch of failed companies with tax payer money is patriotic.

I used Exxon as an example because I know you love them.

And Exxon is picking your pocket because they know how to run a profitable business. Just steal the election so an oil man becomes president.

Only a Redumblicant would say supporting failed policies in Iraq is supporting the troops/America.

 

[sealybobo]

Ford is second to none in trucks. You drive a Ranger?

People are brand loyal. I think if Toyota & Honda people would take a closer look, they'd see that American cars are just as good if not better.

We've been brainwashed to assume Toyota & Honda are better. I bet they paint their cars with led. I bet people who drive foreign cars are killing themselves, their pets and their kids and they don't even know it.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Wouldn't Toyota & Honda love that.

So you are clearly in favor of America not manufacturing anything ever again? Or at least until Americans are willing to work for $3 a day. When we get to that point, you'll be all for manufacturing here again?

What you fail to realize is that Americans are the consumers. We have the power. The power to not buy because we no longer make the kind of money that good consumers typically make. And we see the top 1% sure couldn't keep the economy going. So much for trickle down.

So why did we allow Honda & Toyota to come into America to compete against our American car manufacturers? Are you willing to sell your soul just to get cheaper products?

I bet you are also ok with illegals coming here to do construction and landscaping too because it'll save the owners & the consumers $?

Nothiing is out of the bounds as long as it'll save a buck? Even polluting?

Cut the shit BoBo

I am in favor of companies running themselves and if they are profitable that's great, fine and dandy, hunky dory.

If they fuck up and post losses year after year i am in favor of them closing their doors, going bye bye, taking a dirt nap which is what should be done when companies fail.

How many small companies that would have made better cars never got the chance because of the power and political connections of Ford and GM? You don't seem to concerned about the little guy in this instance do you? You'd rather shore up the big 3 at all costs. talk about corporate fucking welfare.

BTW aren't you against corporate welfare?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I used Exxon as an example because I know you love them.

And Exxon is picking your pocket because they know how to run a profitable business. Just steal the election so an oil man becomes president.

Only a Redumblicant would say supporting failed policies in Iraq is supporting the troops/America.

I like Repudlican better that Redumblican And once again I will tell you that I am neither a Repudlican, nor a Dimocrat.

Last time asshole

I have never supported the war in Iraq.

You go ahead and find a post where i have ever supported the war in Iraq and I'll fill your gas tank for a month.

 

[sealybobo]

I like Repudlican better that Redumblican And once again I will tell you that I am neither a Repudlican, nor a Dimocrat.

Last time asshole

I have never supported the war in Iraq.

You go ahead and find a post where i have ever supported the war in Iraq and I'll fill your gas tank for a month.

Sure, now that gas is $2 a gallon.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Wouldn't Toyota & Honda love that.

So you are clearly in favor of America not manufacturing anything ever again? Or at least until Americans are willing to work for $3 a day. When we get to that point, you'll be all for manufacturing here again?

What you fail to realize is that Americans are the consumers. We have the power. The power to not buy because we no longer make the kind of money that good consumers typically make. And we see the top 1% sure couldn't keep the economy going. So much for trickle down.

So why did we allow Honda & Toyota to come into America to compete against our American car manufacturers? Are you willing to sell your soul just to get cheaper products?

I bet you are also ok with illegals coming here to do construction and landscaping too because it'll save the owners & the consumers $?

Nothiing is out of the bounds as long as it'll save a buck? Even polluting?

Yes, consumers decide where the market goes. You are correct. The consumers are saying that they don't want overpriced gas-guzzlers just because it's made in America. That means there's no demand for what the Big 3 are supplying, which means they either needed to change with the times or go out of business. They clearly chose the latter. If congress bails out the Big 3 it's not going to magically make them more competitive in the marketplace, it's simply going to delay the inevitable.

Why did we allow them in to compete with the Big 3? Well, the majority of us realize that Protectionism only helps a small amount of people at the expense of the rest of us.

Also, what is this nonsense about America not manufacturing anything? How many Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc... plants are there in America? They pay decent wages as well, not your ridiculous "$3 / hour" that you pulled out of your imagination. They don't pay the astronomical amount the Big 3 do, but what do you expect from a factory job in this day and age? Yes, the profits go to foreign companies, but they're employing Americans here in the States.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sure, now that gas is $2 a gallon.

1.95

And you will lose that bet no matter what gas costs.

You know it. I know it

 

[Care4all]

So 2, 3, 4, 5,..........1,200,000,000,000 wrongs make a right?

no it doesn't make it right, it makes it fair......at this point in the game...

no more tax money would be used....the banks that we gave the bail out money to, so that THEY WOULD LOAN OUT the money, should loan it out to save mainstreet, with conditions.

WHO is all this tax money for, if not so that mainstreet can get their loans?

I really do not understand WHY we are allowing these banks, that took billions in bailout money to ease the jammed credit market, to buy out other banks INSTEAD of loaning to those who need to borrow?

we are making 3/4 banking institutions in to an oligopoly....a monopoly of three or four?

THIS IS NOT capitalism, or a free market with enough competition to keep usary and windfall profits in check.

I HATE having to loan the big 3 money, i just think that at the economic stage we are in right now, it would actually be WORSE for them to STIFF ALL WHO they OWE money to with the chapter 11, that the money given to banks WAS TO LOAN out, not to horde.

care