Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

[Care4all]

Actually I didn't blame the AIG failure on the workers because AIG does not have the same burden of UAW contracts that the Big 3 do. So why would I do that?

How do you know that Bear Sterns and AIG do NOT have the same burden with what they pay their workers and executives that work there? Did you look in to it? was it made public? is it any of your business what a person makes as their salary at all...worker or executive? these are just some of the questions that come to mind...

What I tried to point out is simply this, that Union management and management of the big 3 are equally as responsible for the downfall of those companies. While yes it is the companies that approve the contracts that they enter into with these Unions you can hardly blame the line worker for this as they have been conditioned that this is the acceptable way in which someone is paid and benefits are given. The point here is that had the UAW been concerned with the survival of the Big 3 then the contracts they have entered into with these companies would more reflect market place as it exists in the 21st Century and not 1957. Of course I would not blame the average blue collar worker for this, in fact American workers are the hardest workers and best workers in the world thats a fact. Here's an example, a GM plant that was one of the worst as far as quality here in the US was closed and then reopened by Toyota and is one of the best with the same workforce. So it has nothing to do with the workers. When you read the contract with Ford you see a contract that reflects conditions that while for the average Ford worker are great they do not allow Ford to be competitive. Ask yourself this, why is that GM who builds roughly the same number of cars that Toyota builds is on the verge of bankruptcy and Toyota is not? To exclude the costs that are associated with a high paid workforce out of the reasoning is to turn a blind eye to one of the conditions that have brought these companies to this point Care. Now this is not the ONLY reason that these companies find themselves in this position it is just one of them.

You make alot of good points there Navy man! And i really do not differ with you on this....but i do NOT believe the way to go with coming to this solution of making these companies better with less confining monitary contracts with their workers VIA GVT FORCE, DUE TO CHAPTER 11... is the WAY to go.....it ties negotiation and puts it SOLELY IN THE FAVOR of busting the union instead of letting true, humble, negotiations between the two....which imo is what would be fair.....there is a partnership between the employee and the owner, it should NEVER be a ONE WAY STREET partnership imho.

All of those things that should be done to repair these companies CAN BE DONE, without Chapter 11...(except maybe for Chrysler, it may need to go down!)reduce ceo pay, reduce worker pay and make it more incentive driven, fire the old and hire the new management and product development team that is needed to begin the man to the moon projects that bring them in to the 21st or even 22nd century.

And if we really go forward on this green technology push in the suto market, what better companies to do this and develop the perfect technology for this than american made companies? The future has to be considered with these 3, again imo.

We as a country get MORE out of american automobile companies producing cars here than we do with foreign countries producing cars here...

Poor management, poor marketing and slow to respond to market needs, poor quality which is being addressed, poor brand association, and high labor and healthcare costs. That Care is not blaming the blue collar worker for the big 3's downfall, it is being realistic seeing that the UAW is but one condition to it's demise.

The rising prices of Healthcare costs are the single biggest issue for these companies and all companies that are paying them for their employees as a benefit....

This being the case, and in this global economy, should we, the individual be taxed more for our own health care and go in to a Universal health care structure like Ireland, so that our big corporations can be relieved of this burden and prosper again along with putting them on a level playing field with the rest of the global economies which they compete with?

The top pay for a GM hourly employee is $27 an hour, but with benefits and future health care costs GM estimates that hour of work costs the company $73.73. The flat wage works out to about $56,000 a year before overtime, so those taking a $140,000 buyout would get about 2-1/2 years of pay in the lump sum.

The corp that i worked for, sent me a total compensation statement at the end of the year, it included what i made in salary, in bonus, in stocks they gave me, and they included what they paid in my name in Social security taxes, and what they paid for my family healthcare policy and what they paid in company match 401k funds, and what they paid for my life insurance policy and my disability policy and then told me that I made $34000 MORE than what i thought i made, (my salary plus bonuses)!!!

That was like $16 bucks an hour ADDED to what i thought they were paying me! And this was 5 years ago, where the healthcare insurance benefit was NOT NEARLY as costly as today.

YES Navy, things have just gone haywire and the info you posted shows such, but i just do not think that Chapter 11 is the ONLY WAY to correct what has gone wrong....

GM has an incentive to offer buyouts and early retirement because of job guarantees for UAW members that run through September 2007. It announced plans in November to close a dozen plants and slash 30,000 jobs in North America, but without employees taking early retirement or the buyouts, GM will have to keep paying them almost their full salary.

GM, Delphi, UAW set deal for troubled automaker to cut costs - Mar. 22, 2006

like i said, just crazy....but it can be worked out, even with stipulations in a loan.

Do you how much the average GM employee deduction is for healthcare ?

For as long as O'Driscoll has worked at GM, he hasn't had to worry about health care costs. He paid nothing for his heart surgery, and he estimates that during the past five years, he has paid his cardiologist a total of $500. GM doesn't take anything out of his paycheck for health insurance.

USATODAY.com - Ailing GM looks to scale back generous health benefits

Do government employees pay their healthcare costs? I know the military gvt employee does not but WE THE TAX PAYER IS WHO is paying for gvt employee's healthcare, or at least 80% of it.....why shouldn't gm have to pay for the healthcare of their workers with their company's money when we are willing to use our own tax monies to pay for every gvt employee's healthcare, or a more than good portion of it?

This goes back to having a universal healthcare plan, as much as I absolutely hate the idea of it....but a solid question to ask....?

I'm sorry Care, again while I don't blame the employee's for taking advantage of the benefits offered them, I do blame the UAW and GM as well as the other Auto companies for entering into these contracts that have contributed to this. Now, IMHO even this can be solved with some give and take on both sides of the issue. If The Big 3 enters into a plan to move facilites to the US in exchange for say equal pay scale to Honda and Toyota in the US and require ALL employee's with less than 10 years of service and new hires to go to that scale as well as an across the board market scale medical benefit deduction like most companies offer rather than a 1950's based model you will see the Big 3 able to on a per car basis compete with Honda and Toyota. Even with the new labor agreements they are still 50% above Toyota USA.
They are suppose to be at the same LOWER level as toyota in 2010 with employee comparable pay, .....they should accept going to this now as a concession imo.

My contention Care is that these companies can survive if the entrenched forces on all sides would get off their collective asses and make some sacrifices. It needs to start with senior management at the big 3 and end with the senior management at the UAW.

Well, I agree with you....on all of your solutions and what they need to do, I am just not comfortable with them going in to Chapter 11, SHORTING ALL of the VENDORS they do business with, making them go belly up as well if they only get 10 cents on the dollar for what they are owed by them, and on the the very shaking ground that our economy is on right now, right this second....

under any other circumstances navy, i would say Chapter 11 ALL THE WAY BABY!

 

[Care4all]

Dude, I have a GM

I have a Denali and 2 beamers. I drive my Denali more, I love it. I believe in the GM product. I am considering buying a vet.

I never said the competitors make a better or cheaper truck our suv. I think American Pick up trucks f-150, Ram, silverado are the best in the world and really the main thing keeping them a float.

However, the problem is they stopped marketing their family sedans, and accords and corrola's took over.

Which is sad because there are nice cars. The malibu is nice, the Empala is a very nice car, so is the pointac sedan's.

Yet they let them out to dry and concetrated on one market only the trucks.

Awful foresight on their part.

yep!

 

[Navy1960]

Actually I didn't blame the AIG failure on the workers because AIG does not have the same burden of UAW contracts that the Big 3 do. So why would I do that?

How do you know that Bear Sterns and AIG do NOT have the same burden with what they pay their workers and executives that work there? Did you look in to it? was it made public? is it any of your business what a person makes as their salary at all...worker or executive? these are just some of the questions that come to mind...

What I tried to point out is simply this, that Union management and management of the big 3 are equally as responsible for the downfall of those companies. While yes it is the companies that approve the contracts that they enter into with these Unions you can hardly blame the line worker for this as they have been conditioned that this is the acceptable way in which someone is paid and benefits are given. The point here is that had the UAW been concerned with the survival of the Big 3 then the contracts they have entered into with these companies would more reflect market place as it exists in the 21st Century and not 1957. Of course I would not blame the average blue collar worker for this, in fact American workers are the hardest workers and best workers in the world thats a fact. Here's an example, a GM plant that was one of the worst as far as quality here in the US was closed and then reopened by Toyota and is one of the best with the same workforce. So it has nothing to do with the workers. When you read the contract with Ford you see a contract that reflects conditions that while for the average Ford worker are great they do not allow Ford to be competitive. Ask yourself this, why is that GM who builds roughly the same number of cars that Toyota builds is on the verge of bankruptcy and Toyota is not? To exclude the costs that are associated with a high paid workforce out of the reasoning is to turn a blind eye to one of the conditions that have brought these companies to this point Care. Now this is not the ONLY reason that these companies find themselves in this position it is just one of them.

You make alot of good points there Navy man! And i really do not differ with you on this....but i do NOT believe the way to go with coming to this solution of making these companies better with less confining monitary contracts with their workers VIA GVT FORCE, DUE TO CHAPTER 11... is the WAY to go.....it ties negotiation and puts it SOLELY IN THE FAVOR of busting the union instead of letting true, humble, negotiations between the two....which imo is what would be fair.....there is a partnership between the employee and the owner, it should NEVER be a ONE WAY STREET partnership imho.

All of those things that should be done to repair these companies CAN BE DONE, without Chapter 11...(except maybe for Chrysler, it may need to go down!)reduce ceo pay, reduce worker pay and make it more incentive driven, fire the old and hire the new management and product development team that is needed to begin the man to the moon projects that bring them in to the 21st or even 22nd century.

And if we really go forward on this green technology push in the suto market, what better companies to do this and develop the perfect technology for this than american made companies? The future has to be considered with these 3, again imo.

We as a country get MORE out of american automobile companies producing cars here than we do with foreign countries producing cars here...

Poor management, poor marketing and slow to respond to market needs, poor quality which is being addressed, poor brand association, and high labor and healthcare costs. That Care is not blaming the blue collar worker for the big 3's downfall, it is being realistic seeing that the UAW is but one condition to it's demise.

The rising prices of Healthcare costs are the single biggest issue for these companies and all companies that are paying them for their employees as a benefit....

This being the case, and in this global economy, should we, the individual be taxed more for our own health care and go in to a Universal health care structure like Ireland, so that our big corporations can be relieved of this burden and prosper again along with putting them on a level playing field with the rest of the global economies which they compete with?

The top pay for a GM hourly employee is $27 an hour, but with benefits and future health care costs GM estimates that hour of work costs the company $73.73. The flat wage works out to about $56,000 a year before overtime, so those taking a $140,000 buyout would get about 2-1/2 years of pay in the lump sum.

The corp that i worked for, sent me a total compensation statement at the end of the year, it included what i made in salary, in bonus, in stocks they gave me, and they included what they paid in my name in Social security taxes, and what they paid for my family healthcare policy and what they paid in company match 401k funds, and what they paid for my life insurance policy and my disability policy and then told me that I made $34000 MORE than what i thought i made, (my salary plus bonuses)!!!

That was like $16 bucks an hour ADDED to what i thought they were paying me! And this was 5 years ago, where the healthcare insurance benefit was NOT NEARLY as costly as today.

YES Navy, things have just gone haywire and the info you posted shows such, but i just do not think that Chapter 11 is the ONLY WAY to correct what has gone wrong....

GM has an incentive to offer buyouts and early retirement because of job guarantees for UAW members that run through September 2007. It announced plans in November to close a dozen plants and slash 30,000 jobs in North America, but without employees taking early retirement or the buyouts, GM will have to keep paying them almost their full salary.

GM, Delphi, UAW set deal for troubled automaker to cut costs - Mar. 22, 2006

like i said, just crazy....but it can be worked out, even with stipulations in a loan.

Do you how much the average GM employee deduction is for healthcare ?

For as long as O'Driscoll has worked at GM, he hasn't had to worry about health care costs. He paid nothing for his heart surgery, and he estimates that during the past five years, he has paid his cardiologist a total of $500. GM doesn't take anything out of his paycheck for health insurance.

USATODAY.com - Ailing GM looks to scale back generous health benefits

Do government employees pay their healthcare costs? I know the military gvt employee does not but WE THE TAX PAYER IS WHO is paying for gvt employee's healthcare, or at least 80% of it.....why shouldn't gm have to pay for the healthcare of their workers with their company's money when we are willing to use our own tax monies to pay for every gvt employee's healthcare, or a more than good portion of it?

This goes back to having a universal healthcare plan, as much as I absolutely hate the idea of it....but a solid question to ask....?

I'm sorry Care, again while I don't blame the employee's for taking advantage of the benefits offered them, I do blame the UAW and GM as well as the other Auto companies for entering into these contracts that have contributed to this. Now, IMHO even this can be solved with some give and take on both sides of the issue. If The Big 3 enters into a plan to move facilites to the US in exchange for say equal pay scale to Honda and Toyota in the US and require ALL employee's with less than 10 years of service and new hires to go to that scale as well as an across the board market scale medical benefit deduction like most companies offer rather than a 1950's based model you will see the Big 3 able to on a per car basis compete with Honda and Toyota. Even with the new labor agreements they are still 50% above Toyota USA.
They are suppose to be at the same LOWER level as toyota in 2010 with employee comparable pay, .....they should accept going to this now as a concession imo.

My contention Care is that these companies can survive if the entrenched forces on all sides would get off their collective asses and make some sacrifices. It needs to start with senior management at the big 3 and end with the senior management at the UAW.

Well, I agree with you....on all of your solutions and what they need to do, I am just not comfortable with them going in to Chapter 11, SHORTING ALL of the VENDORS they do business with, making them go belly up as well if they only get 10 cents on the dollar for what they are owed by them, and on the the very shaking ground that our economy is on right now, right this second....

under any other circumstances navy, i would say Chapter 11 ALL THE WAY BABY!

I have offered many other solutions short of Chapter 11 that congress could have suggested that are within the scope of it's power had they been able to seperate their collective lips away from the backsides of those on K street. Here is a really simple example, Ford Motor Credit, GMAC, and Chrysler Credit, simply have them change status to bank holding companies like American Express and force Paulson to give them money to free up lending on cars in inventory to create cash flow. See what I mean , if an old Aviator can come up with this off the top of my head then , it should not take much for these people to come up with a solution. What you will see IMO is a complete reworking of the American auto industry which again IMO needs to be done and has been for a long long time. For example, Chrysler may end up just making Chryslers and you may see Jeep for example owned by Hyundai who has approached Chrysler about buying the division. You may in fact see the same thing with Dodge. In fact you might see the same thing with GM. The car issue boils down to me in it's base form to three issues, 1. Lack of Credit that has caused the industry sales to slow 2. Poor management direction 3. High costs associated with production and emplyment. IMHO if you can solve those 3 which are very solveable then you will have a viable car industry for a long time to come. the credit issue is one of stimulation if you ask me. What gets people into a show room? well would a being able to write 50% of the cost of the car off on your taxes do it? If the loan was backed by the Fed. like an FHA loan would that stimulate the banks to lend? See what I mean? It is just a matter of thinking and not taking money and throwing it into a fire and watching it burn , rather it is finding a bucket filling it with water and putting the fire out.

 

[Care4all]

I have offered many other solutions short of Chapter 11 that congress could have suggested that are within the scope of it's power had they been able to seperate their collective lips away from the backsides of those on K street. Here is a really simple example, Ford Motor Credit, GMAC, and Chrysler Credit, simply have them change status to bank holding companies like American Express and force Paulson to give them money to free up lending on cars in inventory to create cash flow. See what I mean , if an old Aviator can come up with this off the top of my head then , it should not take much for these people to come up with a solution. What you will see IMO is a complete reworking of the American auto industry which again IMO needs to be done and has been for a long long time. For example, Chrysler may end up just making Chryslers and you may see Jeep for example owned by Hyundai who has approached Chrysler about buying the division. You may in fact see the same thing with Dodge. In fact you might see the same thing with GM. The car issue boils down to me in it's base form to three issues, 1. Lack of Credit that has caused the industry sales to slow 2. Poor management direction 3. High costs associated with production and emplyment. IMHO if you can solve those 3 which are very solveable then you will have a viable car industry for a long time to come. the credit issue is one of stimulation if you ask me. What gets people into a show room? well would a being able to write 50% of the cost of the car off on your taxes do it? If the loan was backed by the Fed. like an FHA loan would that stimulate the banks to lend? See what I mean? It is just a matter of thinking and not taking money and throwing it into a fire and watching it burn , rather it is finding a bucket filling it with water and putting the fire out.

Well, i agree with ya there, but i don't think the Chapter 11 judge will be up for the job! Someone new in the private sector, LIKE YOU ....could probably git it going alot quicker than a Bankruptcy court judge and advisors.

Union heads need to go as well, with sane replacements.

 

[sealybobo]

sealy not that GM and Ford don't make great trucks they do IMO , however Toyota's is just as good and is made in San Antonio, Tx. The Ford F-150 depending on which one you get is made in the following places.

Assembly Cuautitlan, Mexico
Dearborn, Michigan, USA
Kansas City, Missouri, USA
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
Sao Bernardo do Campo, Brazil
Valencia, Venezuela

GM's trucks are virtually the same when it comes to to final assembly and as can be seen by that list several vehicles are not even made in the United States , whereas the Toyota is. So the point here sealy is that Americans do make Toyota's , Kia's, BMW's, Honda's, VW's and many other brands and those car's and trucks are just as American as any other Ford, GM, or Chrysler product that rolls off the line here in the United States. In fact sealy, they are more so than the GM's, Fords, and Chrysler's made in other countries.

Very simple. Close the loopholes that encourage American manufacturers to leave the US.

This was an article I found from 2002.

G.O.P. Is Moving to Slow Action on Tax Loophole - New York Times

Republican leaders in Congress are using procedural tactics like walking out of committee hearings to keep Congress from voting on measures to close the so-called Bermuda loophole in the federal tax code, measures that would almost certainly pass overwhelmingly if given the chance.

The loophole allows big companies to pretend legally that they are based offshore (Bermuda has been the country of choice) and then filter profits through a third country (most often Barbados), avoiding American income taxes. The administration and the Republican leaders have said the loophole should be closed but have emphasized that flawed tax laws are forcing companies to make the Bermuda move.

 

[sealybobo]

"Oil Man Bush jacked up the price of gas"

Oh... the liberal myths never stop spewing from your fingers or pie hole, do they clown?

Well what changed? Why did gas go from $4 to $2?

So as soon as the economy is ok again, gas will go back up to $4? GULP!

Thank God GM is coming out with a plug in car. It will go 40 miles before using any gas at all.

Hope you give it a look.

 

[Navy1960]

Well, i agree with ya there, but i don't think the Chapter 11 judge will be up for the job! Someone new in the private sector, LIKE YOU ....could probably git it going alot quicker than a Bankruptcy court judge and advisors.

Union heads need to go as well, with sane replacements.

Do you know what would really be a good idea, what about a industrial policy board? The idea that a government won't help industry native to it's country is not true. In fact for years AirBus a.k.a EADS has been massivly helped with government funds to develop and build it's commercial aircraft. That is why the United States is at this moment bringing suit against them. A board like that could recommend policy as it relates to strategic direction i.e. new technology cars. electric, Fuel Cell, etc, as well as act as the final settlement body in trade issues for US industrial matters. Let me give you an example of how these car companies bleed money in a silly way. You have many National Labs , Argon, Sandia, and even at Schools like MIT that could act as a development body for base technologies that could be shared among all 3 of these companies rather than them spending 114 Billion seperatly on different technologies that may or may not be accepted in the market place. My idea has always been creating a citizens policy board on the internet that does much the same thing that is soley composed of citizens that send these recommendations directly to the congress and as it's power grows so does its clout as it applies to policy. You know if you got 5 people together and they all were of different views from different parts of the United States , you could craft policy given a standard of ethics that people would listen too. What if that 5 were 50 or 500 or 5 million see what I mean? I have gone off the path a little there, my apologies, but the point is that ideas are not dead, it's the ears that need to be cleaned out to listen to them.

 

[sealybobo]

Dude, I have a GM

I have a Denali and 2 beamers. I drive my Denali more, I love it. I believe in the GM product. I am considering buying a vet.

I never said the competitors make a better or cheaper truck our suv. I think American Pick up trucks f-150, Ram, silverado are the best in the world and really the main thing keeping them a float.

However, the problem is they stopped marketing their family sedans, and accords and corrola's took over.

Which is sad because there are nice cars. The malibu is nice, the Empala is a very nice car, so is the pointac sedan's.

Yet they let them out to dry and concetrated on one market only the trucks.

Awful foresight on their part.

Can't argue with your points here Andy.

And I always like to know where someone is coming from. Clearly you are a rich dude if you have 3 really nice cars. What do you do for a living? You don't have to tell me where you work, just what do you do? Middle management, upper management, a small business owner?

 

[sealybobo]

Do you know what would really be a good idea, what about a industrial policy board? The idea that a government won't help industry native to it's country is not true. In fact for years AirBus a.k.a EADS has been massivly helped with government funds to develop and build it's commercial aircraft. That is why the United States is at this moment bringing suit against them. A board like that could recommend policy as it relates to strategic direction i.e. new technology cars. electric, Fuel Cell, etc, as well as act as the final settlement body in trade issues for US industrial matters. Let me give you an example of how these car companies bleed money in a silly way. You have many National Labs , Argon, Sandia, and even at Schools like MIT that could act as a development body for base technologies that could be shared among all 3 of these companies rather than them spending 114 Billion seperatly on different technologies that may or may not be accepted in the market place. My idea has always been creating a citizens policy board on the internet that does much the same thing that is soley composed of citizens that send these recommendations directly to the congress and as it's power grows so does its clout as it applies to policy. You know if you got 5 people together and they all were of different views from different parts of the United States , you could craft policy given a standard of ethics that people would listen too. What if that 5 were 50 or 500 or 5 million see what I mean? I have gone off the path a little there, my apologies, but the point is that ideas are not dead, it's the ears that need to be cleaned out to listen to them.

Your idea made me think, "why doesn't the government buy all their government cars from Ford & GM?"

If the Government does loan them the money, they should demand A PLAN type deals on all their government vehicles until the loan is paid off. Even offer the A PLAN to all government employees?

There are a lot of things that can be done and will be done.

The worst thing to do is let the Big 3 go Chapter 11.

As for Chrysler, I say let it die. I never liked Chrysler nor did I think it deserved being one of the Big 3. The only reason they won't let it die are the jobs. But I don't think Chrysler is necessary nor do I even consider them when I think of cars.

Then Chrysler customers will become Ford/GM customers, hopefully.

 

[sealybobo]

sealy not that GM and Ford don't make great trucks they do IMO , however Toyota's is just as good and is made in San Antonio, Tx. The Ford F-150 depending on which one you get is made in the following places.

Assembly Cuautitlan, Mexico
Dearborn, Michigan, USA
Kansas City, Missouri, USA
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
Sao Bernardo do Campo, Brazil
Valencia, Venezuela

GM's trucks are virtually the same when it comes to to final assembly and as can be seen by that list several vehicles are not even made in the United States , whereas the Toyota is. So the point here sealy is that Americans do make Toyota's , Kia's, BMW's, Honda's, VW's and many other brands and those car's and trucks are just as American as any other Ford, GM, or Chrysler product that rolls off the line here in the United States. In fact sealy, they are more so than the GM's, Fords, and Chrysler's made in other countries.

Here's another example.

Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers. and other Wall Street giants helped foreign investors dodge billions of dollars in U.S. taxes on stock dividends while the IRS looked the other way, a Senate investigation found.

I-banks helped clients beat taxes, Senate says - InvestmentNews

or

Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.


Study Shows Most US Corporations Pay Zero Tax

 

[DiamondDave]

Well what changed? Why did gas go from $4 to $2?

So as soon as the economy is ok again, gas will go back up to $4? GULP!

Thank God GM is coming out with a plug in car. It will go 40 miles before using any gas at all.

Hope you give it a look.

And this has what to do with your asinine assertion that "Oil Man Bush jacked up the price of gas"?

I have looked into the volt... I find it intriguing.. and I look forward to that technology advancing

 

[Andrew2382]

I ain't rich man.

I work for Aon (risk management corp).

I am an account executive, (middle management I guess you can call it) I make just a little but over the 100k mark. My wife don't work anymore as she is caring for our 2 year old son, but she works in healthcare management field.

However far from rich, when you take into effect the cost of living in Miami, Mortgage, homeowners insurance (5 grand a year there alone), normal bills, childs day care, groceries, utilities, life insurance, 401k contribution, cable bill, internet, the list goes on and on I am sure as most people here know.

The shit adds up. I save about 15% of my pay into a high intrest savings account which we don't touch.

The reason I can afford all that is because I get the beamers at employee pricing because my father an dbrother have been working at bmw dealerships for over 10 years.

I pay less for my X3 and 328 then I do for my Denali. I am really wanting to get a vet cause I have always wanted one, but we will have to wait to next year at least to see how the finances look

 

[Navy1960]

Your idea made me think, "why doesn't the government buy all their government cars from Ford & GM?"

If the Government does loan them the money, they should demand A PLAN type deals on all their government vehicles until the loan is paid off. Even offer the A PLAN to all government employees?

There are a lot of things that can be done and will be done.

The worst thing to do is let the Big 3 go Chapter 11.

As for Chrysler, I say let it die. I never liked Chrysler nor did I think it deserved being one of the Big 3. The only reason they won't let it die are the jobs. But I don't think Chrysler is necessary nor do I even consider them when I think of cars.

Then Chrysler customers will become Ford/GM customers, hopefully.

sealy, I am sure you are aware of how an FHA home loan or a VA home loan works , in the default process, it is a govt. backed loan. It amazes me that a Govt. backed loan for American made car's and other qaulifiers attched would not have a huge impact on freeing up credit. In short if the Fed. put 40 billion in a Treasury fund that backed these loans even on defaults let's say they automoblies went to the Fed on repossesion, then those can be funneled through the system for every agency that requires transportation, see what I mean? The other sideof that would be a tax credit on American made car's where 50% of the purchase price for a period of one year can be deducted from your taxes as well as an additional % can be added to that loan Trust. As for Chrysler, I think we spoke on this before, but IMHO it would be a very smart thing for the Fed. to encourage GM or Ford to aquire Chrysler and it's divisions. Chryslers new electric mini-van is an amazing vehicle that has gotten little press due to the Chevy volt but these technologies can be be married into the other two and the gas hogging money losers can be pitched.

 

[sealybobo]

And this has what to do with your asinine assertion that "Oil Man Bush jacked up the price of gas"?

I have looked into the volt... I find it intriguing.. and I look forward to that technology advancing

Don't worry Diamond. In the next few years all the facts will come out about who attended those energy meetings and what was discussed.

Chaney refuses to tell. He said he doesn't want to discourage people from coming to the White House to discuss policy. If he told us what they talked about, then people wouldn't come to him and speak freely.

We'll find out in the years to come that they gouged us for 8 years.

Remember that email from the energy exec making fun of old people freezing to death while they recorded record profits?

How about Enron. Do you really think companies like that didn't pull a fast one on us Diamond?

Cheney Met Six Times with Enron Executives; Energy Policy Was Focus of Talks.


http://www.highbeam.com/


Dont' worry Dave, you'll see everything I've been telling you is true and you can stop worrying because we will fix the mess you created. Not you specifically, but your party.

 

[sealybobo]

Well, i agree with ya there, but i don't think the Chapter 11 judge will be up for the job! Someone new in the private sector, LIKE YOU ....could probably git it going alot quicker than a Bankruptcy court judge and advisors.

Union heads need to go as well, with sane replacements.

I just figured out how to "bail out" the Big 3. Have University of Michigan do a few fund raisers for them:

U-M celebrates the impact of historic Michigan Difference campaign

by Nancy Connell

November 18, 2008

The campaign raised $3,115,644,057, Campaign Chair Rich Rogel announced at a ceremony in Hill Auditorium. The sum is believed to be the largest amount ever raised by a public university, and substantially exceeds the goal of $2.5 billion announced in 2004. The $3.1 billion represents receipts as of Oct. 31; the campaign ends officially on Dec. 31.

 

[Navy1960]

I just figured out how to "bail out" the Big 3. Have University of Michigan do a few fund raisers for them:

U-M celebrates the impact of historic Michigan Difference campaign

by Nancy Connell

November 18, 2008

The campaign raised $3,115,644,057, Campaign Chair Rich Rogel announced at a ceremony in Hill Auditorium. The sum is believed to be the largest amount ever raised by a public university, and substantially exceeds the goal of $2.5 billion announced in 2004. The $3.1 billion represents receipts as of Oct. 31; the campaign ends officially on Dec. 31.

Now why does that not surprise me that UofM can raise that kind of money? *laughs* I wonder if that grand piano is still in the lobby at U of M hospital.

 

[sealybobo]

Now why does that not surprise me that UofM can raise that kind of money? *laughs* I wonder if that grand piano is still in the lobby at U of M hospital.

How come my quote says CAREFORALL? I think somethings wrong with this site today. That was my quote.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Whether you know it or not, you have a vested interest in the Big 3's survival.

The Big 3 were penalized when the GOP let Honda & Toyota in to compete. It's not an even playing field. You prefer fucking the American worker so you can save a buck. What do you do for a living and how much do you make?

But, I'll give you this. I think the Big 3 should move down south where they can pay lower wages. And by the way, the Big 3 are starting new employees out at $15 hr. now. Are you happy? They are doing what you ask. Why then do you want them to fail? Don't answer that. I know why. It's because you don't know what you are saying.

If we come up with Universal healthcare for everyone, the American corporations can take healthcare off their plate. That'll be one way to help lower their costs.

Then we need to make free trade fair.

And this should be the only loan they need because Democrats are in control now and they will undo the policies the GOP put in place that are causing the Big 3 to hemerage.

The Big 3 did make money in the 90's. What changed? The same way America used to be the largest creditor in the world and now we are largest debtor in the world. Can you explain how we went from the largest creditor to the largest ower?

Last night on the Daily show they exposed your right wing tactic of sarcasm. If anyone on the left is optimistic and hopeful, because we know we can fix this mess, you guys say it back in a sarcastic way, like how Hillary said the sun will shine and the birds will sing and everyone will join hands and sing coombiya! This is why you lost the election. Even though you aren't a Republican, you are still a conservative, and that makes you wrong. I like some of what the libertarians say, but you guys are almost as bad as the GOP. Some of what you say is right but enough of what you say is wrong and that's why your party is unacceptable to the American voters. Sorry.

As I said before, Protectionism helps a few at the expense of everybody else. Therefore, we'd only make things worse if we imposed tariffs or kicked Honda and Toyota out as you have proposed. How many American jobs would we lose if did kick them out as you suggest? They'd have to close all their factories and all their dealerships. That's a lot of jobs.

As to how much I make and what I do for a living, mind your own business.

I guess it's great they're starting new employees off at $15 / hour, though it won't help. I don't want the Big 3 to fail, but I don't see why I should bail them out either. I don't know what I'm saying? You're the one who has no clear grasp of Protectionism and thinks that it would be a great idea.

We can't afford universal health care, it's not viable.

Free trade is always fair. Those that can't compete lose, and those that make a product that is in demand win.

Right, it's the Republicans that caused the Big 3 to go out of business. I burnt some food earlier, damn you un-American Republicans!

What changed? People stopped buying their cars and their corruption caught up with them. We went from the largest creditor to the largest debtor because we stopped saving and producing and started borrowing. I'm sure that's the Republicans fault though.

Damn that John Stewart for outing me and my sarcasm... Wait... Isn't his whole show based on sarcasm? I am not a conservative, I am a Libertarian. I don't think my sarcasm is why Bob Barr didn't win the election, or Ron Paul the Republican nomination. In fact, I'm 100% sure that wasn't the reason. It's funny how it's Republicans that are sarcastic but you go and tell us what Hillary Clinton did that was sarcastic. I promise you that that is not the reason that the Libertarian Party is "unacceptable" to Americans. It's because you Republicrats have a monopoly in politics and won't allow any other parties to challenge you because you realize that maybe just maybe they'll win. Enough of what I say is wrong? Says the guy arguing that protectionism is the way to go, and thinks that Jon Stewart is a serious source for news. Though I will admit his show is pretty funny, I prefer Colbert personally.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Well what changed? Why did gas go from $4 to $2?

So as soon as the economy is ok again, gas will go back up to $4? GULP!

Thank God GM is coming out with a plug in car. It will go 40 miles before using any gas at all.

Hope you give it a look.

The problem is the Volt simply isn't enough. The ENTIRE PRODUCT line needs to be 'Volts". I want to by an all electric SUV but no one makes one yet. I can't get my family, or my kid's hockey teammates around in a Volt. I need and electric Suburban! Where is it? Guess I'm going to have to buy the all electric Forerunner Toyota is coming out with because GM or Ford won't get me one!

 

[sealybobo]

As I said before, Protectionism helps a few at the expense of everybody else.

As to how much I make and what I do for a living, mind your own business.

I guess it's great they're starting new employees off at $15 / hour, though it won't help. I don't want the Big 3 to fail, but I don't see why I should bail them out either. I don't know what I'm saying? You're the one who has no clear grasp of Protectionism and thinks that it would be a great idea.

We can't afford universal health care, it's not viable.

Free trade is always fair. Those that can't compete lose, and those that make a product that is in demand win.

Right, it's the Republicans that caused the Big 3 to go out of business. I burnt some food earlier, damn you un-American Republicans!

What changed? People stopped buying their cars and their corruption caught up with them. We went from the largest creditor to the largest debtor because we stopped saving and producing and started borrowing. I'm sure that's the Republicans fault though.

Damn that John Stewart for outing me and my sarcasm... Wait... Isn't his whole show based on sarcasm? I am not a conservative, I am a Libertarian. I don't think my sarcasm is why Bob Barr didn't win the election, or Ron Paul the Republican nomination. In fact, I'm 100% sure that wasn't the reason. It's funny how it's Republicans that are sarcastic but you go and tell us what Hillary Clinton did that was sarcastic. I promise you that that is not the reason that the Libertarian Party is "unacceptable" to Americans. It's because you Republicrats have a monopoly in politics and won't allow any other parties to challenge you because you realize that maybe just maybe they'll win. Enough of what I say is wrong? Says the guy arguing that protectionism is the way to go, and thinks that Jon Stewart is a serious source for news. Though I will admit his show is pretty funny, I prefer Colbert personally.

I think Ron Paul even admits it is a problem that we sent all our manufacturing overseas. And when the countries that Toyota and Honda come from won't let us in, I think that's a problem too. Your dream of total free trade will never come true. Get over it. You live in a fantasy world. And many people would suffer in your every man for himself universe. That's what America was like before Social security.

Every country in the world has some sort of protectionalism. Just like America has some socialism in our process. I am not going to try to convince you I'm right about this because we already said enough on November 4th. The stuff you say is what Bush said in 2000 when he convinced us that we should outsource everything.

And yes it is all the GOP's fault. Which party is for the Corporations mostly? The Republicans. Which party turned it's back on the middle class? The Republicans. Why do you think Ohio went Blue? Because the GOP and Corporations want cheap labor overseas. Not only did the GOP allow them to go overseas, they gave them loopholes to dodge paying taxes. And I've already provided enough links to prove that to you, but you seem to just ignore them.

What you do for a living helps me understand if you are a fool or a greedy bastard. I talked to some guy yesterday who makes just over $100K. Now I know he's not seeing things from a middle class perspective. He doesn't understand how this economy has affected people that make $30k-$70k. So without knowing what you do, I can't explain to you if your job is next on the chopping block.

Don't like your taxes raised? How much has your 401k lost? Now factor in that every dollar is now only worth 70 cents because the GOP doubled the debt in 8 years. Then consider inflation. Dude, you lost sooo much under Bushanomics and you know it. Iraq helped break us too, but the $750 billion was the icing on the cake. And it's a fact that Iraq was a war for profit. Did we profit? No, Oil companies, blackwater and haloburton did.

And you don't think it's all tied together?

Say, why don't we have the banks loan the Big 3 the money? Isn't that what we loaned the banks the $750K for? To loan out money and get the process going?

This crisis is all in the bankers heads. They are a bunch of whiners. Did you yell this loud about the bank bailout? No, because that helped rich bankers. The Big 3 loan would help workers, and you are anti labor. Again, what do you do? I can prove you are an arrogant ignorant person if you will only tell me.

No, The Daily Show is all about satire:

In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with the intent to bring about improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit.

I don't have the time or desire to explain every point, but you happen to be wrong on everything. You have good intentions but you just wrong. But to explain why would take forever, and you'd just argue anyways. I'm not going to care for another 1.5 years. We can discuss what can and can't be done then, because I've been hearing the shit you say for 8 years now. Clearly you were not right about anything.

The fact that you dare argue the economy or war or healthcare or conservation/pollution/global warming at this point is laughable. You should just watch for a year or two and give the new party/administration a chance to show you just how wrong you are.

But after bashing Clinton for those 8 great years, I doubt anything will be good enough for people like you. You'll still want trade to be FREER. And it will never be. Nor should it. It will be less free. It will be more regulated. You can call it protectionalism or socialism or whatever you want, but it is coming.