Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

[DavidS]

Sure, now that gas is $2 a gallon.

I wonder what all those people are doing with the $2.99 for 3 years/36,000 miles deal.

 

[sealybobo]

I wonder what all those people are doing with the $2.99 for 3 years/36,000 miles deal.

Ha! When you gamble, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

 

[Care4all]

Yes, consumers decide where the market goes. You are correct. The consumers are saying that they don't want overpriced gas-guzzlers just because it's made in America. That means there's no demand for what the Big 3 are supplying, which means they either needed to change with the times or go out of business. They clearly chose the latter. If congress bails out the Big 3 it's not going to magically make them more competitive in the marketplace, it's simply going to delay the inevitable.

Why did we allow them in to compete with the Big 3? Well, the majority of us realize that Protectionism only helps a small amount of people at the expense of the rest of us.

Also, what is this nonsense about America not manufacturing anything? How many Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc... plants are there in America? They pay decent wages as well, not your ridiculous "$3 / hour" that you pulled out of your imagination. They don't pay the astronomical amount the Big 3 do, but what do you expect from a factory job in this day and age? Yes, the profits go to foreign companies, but they're employing Americans here in the States.

they have changed.....FINALLY! And they have in the works some VERY VIABLE Hybrids coming out....new proprietary technology too!

The recession, caused by the banks and related housing market is what has put them in this DIRE position.....

no one can get loans for their cars.....NOT that people are not trying to buy them....they make and sell millions of cars a year.....millions! not something to shake a stick at!

YES, because they were still on shakey ground to begin with, this has hit them harder than maybe a toyota, but they have made many moves the past few years to improve their business models, and they are moving in the right direction....by 2010m their employees will be compensated at the same level as toyota workers, they got fuel efficient cars with ingenuity and proprietary features coming....

YES, they still have a ways to go....but for once, they are heading in the right direction!

care

 

[sealybobo]

Yes, consumers decide where the market goes. You are correct. The consumers are saying that they don't want overpriced gas-guzzlers just because it's made in America. That means there's no demand for what the Big 3 are supplying, which means they either needed to change with the times or go out of business. They clearly chose the latter. If congress bails out the Big 3 it's not going to magically make them more competitive in the marketplace, it's simply going to delay the inevitable.

Why did we allow them in to compete with the Big 3? Well, the majority of us realize that Protectionism only helps a small amount of people at the expense of the rest of us.

Also, what is this nonsense about America not manufacturing anything? How many Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc... plants are there in America? They pay decent wages as well, not your ridiculous "$3 / hour" that you pulled out of your imagination. They don't pay the astronomical amount the Big 3 do, but what do you expect from a factory job in this day and age? Yes, the profits go to foreign companies, but they're employing Americans here in the States.

1. You are ignoring the fact that the Big 3 are changing/improving. Seems to me no matter how fast they improve, you are ready to cut and run. If you could only apply your never quit attitude in Iraq to America. I guess our soldiers are first class but the rest of us suck, huh?

2. The Big 3 need the money to help them with the transition. It's a loan. I don't know why you want our most important industry to fail.

3. Delay the inevidable? Why are you so negative? With thinking like yours, no we can't. What a loser/quitter/sellout.

4. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Protectionism? Every country protects certain industries that are vital to their economies. Australia, Japan, China, England, France, German, Canada. We would be the only country in the world not to do this. What the fuck is wrong with people like you?

If you want to break the unions and send all the jobs down south, fine. But for god sakes, don't kill the most important industry we have in America. You have no idea how many will be impacted if they go bankrupt. Or how much that will cost the tax payers. At least a loan will be paid back.

You Republicans ruined the country for 8 years. You only have 2 more months left in office and you are trying to hurry up and finish off America before you leave? You all must really hate America to want us to fail so badly. I almost would like to throw your asses out of the country. Get the fuck out!!! You are brining us all down. And then someone who loves America can take your very cush job, because clearly you have a great job if it won't be affected by the collapse of the Big 3.

The go suck Ron Paul's dick and give Bob Barr a reach around, because I know you want to.

 

[sealybobo]

1.95

And you will lose that bet no matter what gas costs.

You know it. I know it

Also, I want to point out that while people are picking on the Big 3 for paying their employees a great wage, they are forgetting that only 13% of Americans are in unions. And their wages brought up our wages.

And executives at EVERY company are paying themselves obscene salaries, not just at the big 3. And our wages are not going up, although inflation is. And the entire economy is collapsing! Is this all the unions fault? Or is this all because American workers make too much? That's what "the man" wants you to think. Once "the man" breaks the unions, he'll come for us next. Don't say I didn't warn you. I warned you all 2 years ago this economy was collapsing and the Redumblicants said I was crazy. They said the economy was strong. I said wages were being lowered and they used fuzzy math to say that wages were up.

In a few years, they'll say WE make too much. And we do if you compare us to mexican or chinese workers. So be prepared to take a hit, just like you are asking the union workers to do. And then watch your ceo's pay go up as a reward for putting one over on you.

And don't forget Obama is not the president yet. This economy is all Bush's and the GOP that had power for 6 straight years.

These are their headlines, not ours:

Retirement dreams give way to despair, anger
Many grappling with golden year disappointments as nest eggs dwindle

U.S. jobless claims jump to 16-year high
Data are more evidence of a rapidly weakening labor market

Report: Economy is sickening U.S. hospitals
Data shows decline in admissions and increase in patients who can’t pay

 

[Andrew2382]

so no blame to go on the dems who had had congress for the past 2 years?

Interesting...all the gops fault

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

1. You are ignoring the fact that the Big 3 are changing/improving. Seems to me no matter how fast they improve, you are ready to cut and run. If you could only apply your never quit attitude in Iraq to America. I guess our soldiers are first class but the rest of us suck, huh?

2. The Big 3 need the money to help them with the transition. It's a loan. I don't know why you want our most important industry to fail.

3. Delay the inevidable? Why are you so negative? With thinking like yours, no we can't. What a loser/quitter/sellout.

4. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Protectionism? Every country protects certain industries that are vital to their economies. Australia, Japan, China, England, France, German, Canada. We would be the only country in the world not to do this. What the fuck is wrong with people like you?

If you want to break the unions and send all the jobs down south, fine. But for god sakes, don't kill the most important industry we have in America. You have no idea how many will be impacted if they go bankrupt. Or how much that will cost the tax payers. At least a loan will be paid back.

You Republicans ruined the country for 8 years. You only have 2 more months left in office and you are trying to hurry up and finish off America before you leave? You all must really hate America to want us to fail so badly. I almost would like to throw your asses out of the country. Get the fuck out!!! You are brining us all down. And then someone who loves America can take your very cush job, because clearly you have a great job if it won't be affected by the collapse of the Big 3.

The go suck Ron Paul's dick and give Bob Barr a reach around, because I know you want to.

It's interesting, you correctly note that I'm both a Ron Paul and Bob Barr supporter, but you claim that I'm somehow a Republican that supports the war in Iraq. So not only am I one "terrible thing," but I'm also it's complete opposite! At least according to you.

1. Too little to late, these improvements were needed years ago. They're also still bogged down by corruption in upper management and in their union. What do you mean I'm ready to cut and run? I have no vested interest in the Big 3 and had nothing to do with their failures. If the Big 3 were doing great they certainly wouldn't send me a check. Why should I be penalized because they can't run a successful business? And once again Bobo, it seems if you can't beat somebody with logic you jump to conclusions. I prefer an immediate withdrawal of our troops from Iraq, and have never supported our illegal and unconstitutional invasion of their country.

2. And how many more loans are they going to need after this one? We already bailed Chrysler out once before, and that doesn't seem to have done them any good since here we are again.

3. Why am I so negative? Well maybe if I wish upon a star the Big 3 will somehow get rid of all the corruption, start supplying a product that consumers want to buy, and start actually making money. But I doubt it.

4. What exactly do I not know what I'm talking about? It's clear that you have no actual knowledge of our economy and simply blame everything wrong with the world on Republicans.

Yes, protectionism. It's not a good thing, and will only hurt our economy even more.

I'm not killing any industry, they did that themselves.

Right, I'm un-American because I don't support bailing out failed businesses and hurting our economy even more. Thank God for patriots such as yourself.

 

[sealybobo]

so no blame to go on the dems who had had congress for the past 2 years?

Interesting...all the gops fault

You are correct. When the GOP had control of both houses and they had the White House, they were able to pass allllll the legislation that led us to this point.

The economy was already in collapse in 07 when the Dems took over. Or if you won't agree with that, then it was in collapse at least in January of this year. So that means the Dems had a 1 seat majority for really only one year. You think they caused all this in one year? Show me what legislation they passed in 2007 that caused the economy to crash.

If you don't know this, it's because you don't want to know.

If we tried to do anything with our one person majority, which was Lieberman, then we never got enough votes to pass anything.

And if we did get something passed because the GOP Senators would get in trouble with their constituents if they didn't vote for it, then Bush would veto those things. He didn't mind being the bad guy. Good cop bad cop.

That's how you guys ran McCain. You tried to put everything that's gone wrong on one person. But yet you know that the President doesn't do anything by himself.

Let's face it, I'm right and you are wrong. That's why Democrats gained seats in 06 and 08. And that's why Obama turned all those red states blue.

PS. Is McCain going to tell us how to catch Bin Ladin? Because he said he knows how to do it. He also said he knows how to fix this economy. Is he going to share or keep it to himself?

 

[Andrew2382]

lol you guys coul dhave passed whatever you wanted. Libermen votes democrat on EVERYTHING except Iraq.

Ever wonder why you guys are called the do nothing congress.
because in 2 years you guys haven't fuck pass bill, you guys havent PROPOSED a bill of any meaning and usefullness. Lets not forget the GOP wanted to regulate the housing industry and cocksuckers (no pun intended) guys like Barney ( i speak like a retard) Frank blocked it.

Remember when you point a finger at someone 3 more are pointing back at you.

 

[sealybobo]

1. I have no vested interest in the Big 3 and had nothing to do with their failures. If the Big 3 were doing great they certainly wouldn't send me a check. Why should I be penalized because they can't run a successful business?

2. And how many more loans are they going to need after this one? We already bailed Chrysler out once before, and that doesn't seem to have done them any good since here we are again.

3. Why am I so negative? Well maybe if I wish upon a star the Big 3 will somehow get rid of all the corruption, start supplying a product that consumers want to buy, and start actually making money. But I doubt it.

4. What exactly do I not know what I'm talking about? It's clear that you have no actual knowledge of our economy and simply blame everything wrong with the world on Republicans.

Yes, protectionism. It's not a good thing, and will only hurt our economy even more.

I'm not killing any industry, they did that themselves.

Right, I'm un-American because I don't support bailing out failed businesses and hurting our economy even more. Thank God for patriots such as yourself.

Whether you know it or not, you have a vested interest in the Big 3's survival.

The Big 3 were penalized when the GOP let Honda & Toyota in to compete. It's not an even playing field. You prefer fucking the American worker so you can save a buck. What do you do for a living and how much do you make?

But, I'll give you this. I think the Big 3 should move down south where they can pay lower wages. And by the way, the Big 3 are starting new employees out at $15 hr. now. Are you happy? They are doing what you ask. Why then do you want them to fail? Don't answer that. I know why. It's because you don't know what you are saying.

If we come up with Universal healthcare for everyone, the American corporations can take healthcare off their plate. That'll be one way to help lower their costs.

Then we need to make free trade fair.

And this should be the only loan they need because Democrats are in control now and they will undo the policies the GOP put in place that are causing the Big 3 to hemerage.

The Big 3 did make money in the 90's. What changed? The same way America used to be the largest creditor in the world and now we are largest debtor in the world. Can you explain how we went from the largest creditor to the largest ower?

Last night on the Daily show they exposed your right wing tactic of sarcasm. If anyone on the left is optimistic and hopeful, because we know we can fix this mess, you guys say it back in a sarcastic way, like how Hillary said the sun will shine and the birds will sing and everyone will join hands and sing coombiya! This is why you lost the election. Even though you aren't a Republican, you are still a conservative, and that makes you wrong. I like some of what the libertarians say, but you guys are almost as bad as the GOP. Some of what you say is right but enough of what you say is wrong and that's why your party is unacceptable to the American voters. Sorry.

 

[sealybobo]

lol you guys coul dhave passed whatever you wanted. Libermen votes democrat on EVERYTHING except Iraq.

Ever wonder why you guys are called the do nothing congress.
because in 2 years you guys haven't fuck pass bill, you guys havent PROPOSED a bill of any meaning and usefullness. Lets not forget the GOP wanted to regulate the housing industry and cocksuckers (no pun intended) guys like Barney ( i speak like a retard) Frank blocked it.

Remember when you point a finger at someone 3 more are pointing back at you.

So we could pass anything we wanted with a one person majority? So having 60 seats mean nothing? You are a joke!

That was the GOP's plan back in 06 when they lost power in both houses. They were going to obstruct any/all progress so they could run against a do nothing congress.

It didn't work. That's why encumbent Dems kept their seats and your party lost even more seats in 08.

You guys tried to suggest voting EVERY encumbent out of office. That would have meant Republicans would have picked up seats. HA! Nice try.

So in 2 years we will have no excuses. But keep in mind that right now, this DEPRESSION we are in is Bush's.

Do you remember who controlled congress during Hoover's Depression? Exactly. So shut the fuck up.

 

[sealybobo]

lol you guys coul dhave passed whatever you wanted. Libermen votes democrat on EVERYTHING except Iraq.

Ever wonder why you guys are called the do nothing congress.
because in 2 years you guys haven't fuck pass bill, you guys havent PROPOSED a bill of any meaning and usefullness. Lets not forget the GOP wanted to regulate the housing industry and cocksuckers (no pun intended) guys like Barney ( i speak like a retard) Frank blocked it.

Remember when you point a finger at someone 3 more are pointing back at you.

Several media outlets have reported recent claims by Senate Republicans, President Bush, and members of his administration that Democrats are currently presiding, or may soon preside, over a "do-nothing Congress" without challenging the claim in any way. These claims are apparently part of a strategy laid out in a "talking-points memorandum" reportedly "circulat[ed]" by Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) that advises Republicans to attack congressional Democrats for their supposed lack of legislative accomplishments. In fact, Republicans have blocked Senate action at an unprecedented rate -- apparently putting into action a strategy that Senate Minority Whip Trent Lott (R-MS) described as "obstructionist."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200707280005:eusa_shhh:

 

[Andrew2382]

The big 3 failed because they invested all their chips in the suv and pick up truck. They tried to sell the pick up truck also as a family car and its too expesnive.

They let their family car sedans to die and Honda and Toyota took over.

They also lost revenue because when employees buy cars they go around GMAC finance to save a half a point. THANK THE UNIONS FOR THAT!

FUCK THAT, if you want employee pricing you shoul dbe forced to go through GMAC financing. They lost billions from that alone. They also have a million delaers all over the place. Hell there are 5 Chevy dealers with 5 miles of my house.

 

[Andrew2382]

So we could pass anything we wanted with a one person majority? So having 60 seats mean nothing? You are a joke!

That was the GOP's plan back in 06 when they lost power in both houses. They were going to obstruct any/all progress so they could run against a do nothing congress.

It didn't work. That's why encumbent Dems kept their seats and your party lost even more seats in 08.

You guys tried to suggest voting EVERY encumbent out of office. That would have meant Republicans would have picked up seats. HA! Nice try.

So in 2 years we will have no excuses. But keep in mind that right now, this DEPRESSION we are in is Bush's.

Do you remember who controlled congress during Hoover's Depression? Exactly. So shut the fuck up.

Please list 1 bill that your left congress has proposed of any relevance

 

[Andrew2382]

Several media outlets have reported recent claims by Senate Republicans, President Bush, and members of his administration that Democrats are currently presiding, or may soon preside, over a "do-nothing Congress" without challenging the claim in any way. These claims are apparently part of a strategy laid out in a "talking-points memorandum" reportedly "circulat[ed]" by Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) that advises Republicans to attack congressional Democrats for their supposed lack of legislative accomplishments. In fact, Republicans have blocked Senate action at an unprecedented rate -- apparently putting into action a strategy that Senate Minority Whip Trent Lott (R-MS) described as "obstructionist."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200707280005:eusa_shhh:

page doesn't work genius

 

[Navy1960]

Navy, at the last corporation that i worked for, we got 12 paid holidays, 2 paid personal days, and 15 days vacation, after 5 years that went to 20 days vacation.....

In addition to this, we got off the week between Christmas and new years.....now granted, this was not a guarantee or part of our compensation package, but every year i worked there, the corpororate office went in to safe mode and operated with just a minimum staff, and most ALL of us, especially at my level, got the time off.

When, my position along with others was downsized, I was paid for 6 months, full pay, along with them paying all of my benefits during that time including my healthcare as severence....what was part of the contract was 2 weeks for every year one worked for them, BUT for me that would have been only 6 weeks since i worked for them for only 3 years, but they paid me 6 months....with a non competitive agreement, that i would NOT go to work for a competitor of theirs or give away company ''secrets'' during that period and if i promised not to sue them for downsizing me.

What i am trying to say is, THIS IS THE CORPORATE world....this is how it works out there.....at least in the north. I was NOT a union employee, the corporation did not have any union workers other than in their warehouses.

The corporation did evaluate other comparable union jobs and devised a payscale for all of their different positions to be COMPARABLE to the Union wages and benefits... offered within the state. (massachusetts)

They actually had a staff of two, that did this job of making certain their payscales for each position, were comparable so that they could pull in and get the best workers out there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now, getting back to your position on this issue....

Ask yourself this....
WHY IS IT that YOU are sooooooooooo concerned with what the Union workers make for a living in their Blue Collar jobs and you DID NOT GIVE a rats ass about what the White Collar workers were making at AIG who got bailed out? Or how much the workers at Bear Sterns that got bailed out, or the workers at Faniie mae, or Freddie?

What is it that makes you SOOOOOOOOOOOO against the amount that these auto workers make for a living while you are not concerned with what the people at aig make which is MORE LIKE $100 BUCKS AN HOUR OR MORE for them to just sit at a desk?

To me, this is NOTHING but wanting to BUST THE UNION...it is clear as day!

now, i am not saying this is what you personally believe, that white collar workers should get SPECIAL preference and we should NEVER question what those workers make... or will ever say that AIG went down and bankrupt because of what they paid their employees.....yet you and others are spending endless hours fighting to reduce these workers salaries and bust their union?????

WHY are the employees at AIG, the White Collar workers given some pedestal while your criticism of an ACTUAL WORKER's pay at a blue collar job is criticized from here to high heaven?

Did you blaim AIG's failure on their workers?

care

Actually I didn't blame the AIG failure on the workers because AIG does not have the same burden of UAW contracts that the Big 3 do. So why would I do that? What I tried to point out is simply this, that Union management and management of the big 3 are equally as responsible for the downfall of those companies. While yes it is the companies that approve the contracts that they enter into with these Unions you can hardly blame the line worker for this as they have been conditioned that this is the acceptable way in which someone is paid and benefits are given. The point here is that had the UAW been concerned with the survival of the Big 3 then the contracts they have entered into with these companies would more reflect market place as it exists in the 21st Century and not 1957. Of course I would not blame the average blue collar worker for this, in fact American workers are the hardest workers and best workers in the world thats a fact. Here's an example, a GM plant that was one of the worst as far as quality here in the US was closed and then reopened by Toyota and is one of the best with the same workforce. So it has nothing to do with the workers. When you read the contract with Ford you see a contract that reflects conditions that while for the average Ford worker are great they do not allow Ford to be competitive. Ask yourself this, why is that GM who builds roughly the same number of cars that Toyota builds is on the verge of bankruptcy and Toyota is not? To exclude the costs that are associated with a high paid workforce out of the reasoning is to turn a blind eye to one of the conditions that have brought these companies to this point Care. Now this is not the ONLY reason that these companies find themselves in this position it is just one of them. Poor management, poor marketing and slow to respond to market needs, poor quality which is being addressed, poor brand association, and high labor and healthcare costs. That Care is not blaming the blue collar worker for the big 3's downfall, it is being realistic seeing that the UAW is but one condition to it's demise.

The top pay for a GM hourly employee is $27 an hour, but with benefits and future health care costs GM estimates that hour of work costs the company $73.73. The flat wage works out to about $56,000 a year before overtime, so those taking a $140,000 buyout would get about 2-1/2 years of pay in the lump sum.

GM has an incentive to offer buyouts and early retirement because of job guarantees for UAW members that run through September 2007. It announced plans in November to close a dozen plants and slash 30,000 jobs in North America, but without employees taking early retirement or the buyouts, GM will have to keep paying them almost their full salary.

GM, Delphi, UAW set deal for troubled automaker to cut costs - Mar. 22, 2006

Do you how much the average GM employee deduction is for healthcare ?

For as long as O'Driscoll has worked at GM, he hasn't had to worry about health care costs. He paid nothing for his heart surgery, and he estimates that during the past five years, he has paid his cardiologist a total of $500. GM doesn't take anything out of his paycheck for health insurance.

USATODAY.com - Ailing GM looks to scale back generous health benefits

I'm sorry Care, again while I don't blame the employee's for taking advantage of the benefits offered them, I do blame the UAW and GM as well as the other Auto companies for entering into these contracts that have contributed to this. Now, IMHO even this can be solved with some give and take on both sides of the issue. If The Big 3 enters into a plan to move facilites to the US in exchange for say equal pay scale to Honda and Toyota in the US and require ALL employee's with less than 10 years of service and new hires to go to that scale as well as an across the board market scale medical benefit deduction like most companies offer rather than a 1950's based model you will see the Big 3 able to on a per car basis compete with Honda and Toyota. Even with the new labor agreements they are still 50% above Toyota USA.

My contention Care is that these companies can survive if the entrenched forces on all sides would get off their collective asses and make some sacrifices. It needs to start with senior management at the big 3 and end with the senior management at the UAW.

 

[sealybobo]

The big 3 failed because they invested all their chips in the suv and pick up truck. They tried to sell the pick up truck also as a family car and its too expesnive.

They let their family car sedans to die and Honda and Toyota took over.

They also lost revenue because when employees buy cars they go around GMAC finance to save a half a point. THANK THE UNIONS FOR THAT!

FUCK THAT, if you want employee pricing you shoul dbe forced to go through GMAC financing. They lost billions from that alone. They also have a million delaers all over the place. Hell there are 5 Chevy dealers with 5 miles of my house.

They made a lot of money on SUV's and Pickups before oil man bush jacked up the price of gas. I always bought trucks until 2 years ago, and then I bought a FOCUS. I never thought I'd buy a little dinky car like that. But it's a great car, and it's number one in Europe. They need to bring the European design to America because it is much cooler. And guess what? They are!!! Now don't be negative. Give the American car a chance. Or have you completely written off everything that is American?

Too expensive? Maybe for you. Show me the price difference between the
F150 and Toyota's version. GM and Ford trucks are great! Who knew gas was going to $4.

Now the Big 3 should hurry up and start producing hybrids, and GOOD ONES! They'll be a little more expensive than Toyota's, but hopefully they'll make them cooler and better. Do you not think Americans are capable of making a better product? Pretty negative/anti American thinking if you ask me.

Some of what you say is not untrue, but that doesn't mean you are right. For example:

Jobs Americans won't do. There might be some truth to that, but that doesn't mean it's ok to let illegals come here and lower our wages.

And as far as a do nothing congress. I remember Newt's congress did nothing for 2 years. Remember their defense? They said, "it's better when we do nothing. The more we do the more things gets screwed up".

You guys are a riot.

You lost the election. You have two years to STFU.

 

[DiamondDave]

"Oil Man Bush jacked up the price of gas"

Oh... the liberal myths never stop spewing from your fingers or pie hole, do they clown?

 

[Andrew2382]

They made a lot of money on SUV's and Pickups before oil man bush jacked up the price of gas. I always bought trucks until 2 years ago, and then I bought a FOCUS. I never thought I'd buy a little dinky car like that. But it's a great car, and it's number one in Europe. They need to bring the European design to America because it is much cooler. And guess what? They are!!! Now don't be negative. Give the American car a chance. Or have you completely written off everything that is American?

Too expensive? Maybe for you. Show me the price difference between the
F150 and Toyota's version. GM and Ford trucks are great! Who knew gas was going to $4.

Now the Big 3 should hurry up and start producing hybrids, and GOOD ONES! They'll be a little more expensive than Toyota's, but hopefully they'll make them cooler and better. Do you not think Americans are capable of making a better product? Pretty negative/anti American thinking if you ask me.

Some of what you say is not untrue, but that doesn't mean you are right. For example:

Jobs Americans won't do. There might be some truth to that, but that doesn't mean it's ok to let illegals come here and lower our wages.

And as far as a do nothing congress. I remember Newt's congress did nothing for 2 years. Remember their defense? They said, "it's better when we do nothing. The more we do the more things gets screwed up".

You guys are a riot.

You lost the election. You have two years to STFU.

Dude, I have a GM

I have a Denali and 2 beamers. I drive my Denali more, I love it. I believe in the GM product. I am considering buying a vet.

I never said the competitors make a better or cheaper truck our suv. I think American Pick up trucks f-150, Ram, silverado are the best in the world and really the main thing keeping them a float.

However, the problem is they stopped marketing their family sedans, and accords and corrola's took over.

Which is sad because there are nice cars. The malibu is nice, the Empala is a very nice car, so is the pointac sedan's.

Yet they let them out to dry and concetrated on one market only the trucks.

Awful foresight on their part.

 

[Navy1960]

They made a lot of money on SUV's and Pickups before oil man bush jacked up the price of gas. I always bought trucks until 2 years ago, and then I bought a FOCUS. I never thought I'd buy a little dinky car like that. But it's a great car, and it's number one in Europe. They need to bring the European design to America because it is much cooler. And guess what? They are!!! Now don't be negative. Give the American car a chance. Or have you completely written off everything that is American?

Too expensive? Maybe for you. Show me the price difference between the
F150 and Toyota's version. GM and Ford trucks are great! Who knew gas was going to $4.

Now the Big 3 should hurry up and start producing hybrids, and GOOD ONES! They'll be a little more expensive than Toyota's, but hopefully they'll make them cooler and better. Do you not think Americans are capable of making a better product? Pretty negative/anti American thinking if you ask me.

Some of what you say is not untrue, but that doesn't mean you are right. For example:

Jobs Americans won't do. There might be some truth to that, but that doesn't mean it's ok to let illegals come here and lower our wages.

And as far as a do nothing congress. I remember Newt's congress did nothing for 2 years. Remember their defense? They said, "it's better when we do nothing. The more we do the more things gets screwed up".

You guys are a riot.

You lost the election. You have two years to STFU.

sealy not that GM and Ford don't make great trucks they do IMO , however Toyota's is just as good and is made in San Antonio, Tx. The Ford F-150 depending on which one you get is made in the following places.

Assembly Cuautitlan, Mexico
Dearborn, Michigan, USA
Kansas City, Missouri, USA
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
Sao Bernardo do Campo, Brazil
Valencia, Venezuela

GM's trucks are virtually the same when it comes to to final assembly and as can be seen by that list several vehicles are not even made in the United States , whereas the Toyota is. So the point here sealy is that Americans do make Toyota's , Kia's, BMW's, Honda's, VW's and many other brands and those car's and trucks are just as American as any other Ford, GM, or Chrysler product that rolls off the line here in the United States. In fact sealy, they are more so than the GM's, Fords, and Chrysler's made in other countries.