Labor Unions...Good or Bad?

[JoeB131]

Are labor unions good or bad for capitalism and economic growth?

Explain in 300 words or less, please.

They are good for Democracy.

The biggest lie that has every been told is that investment creates jobs. Bullshit. Consumer activity creates jobs, and unions make sure of consumer activity by making sure that working people get a fair share of the proceeds of an enterprise.

That in turn spurs more consumer activity as other working people make stuff that they buy.

So it is no surprise we enjoyed our greatest prosperity in the period between 1945 and 1975 when the workforce was mostly unionized and people were bringing home good wages.

 

[whitehall]

Imagine if the judicial system was limited to decisions of good-bad-or undecided. Law school would probably last for around three weeks. There are labor unions that succeeded in turning around grossly unfair labor practices and there are labor unions that ruined the jobs they worked for. There are labor leaders who are honest and there are legendary labor leaders who were so corrupt that they were jokes. Municipal employees work for the taxpayers and as such municipal unions are subject to different standards than labor unions because taxpayers can't afford to be held hostage to collective bargaining demands.

 

[Trajan]

Are labor unions good or bad for capitalism and economic growth?

Explain in 300 words or less, please.

They are good for Democracy.

The biggest lie that has every been told is that investment creates jobs. Bullshit. Consumer activity creates jobs, and unions make sure of consumer activity by making sure that working people get a fair share of the proceeds of an enterprise.

That in turn spurs more consumer activity as other working people make stuff that they buy.

So it is no surprise we enjoyed our greatest prosperity in the period between 1945 and 1975 when the workforce was mostly unionized and people were bringing home good wages.

its no surprise that you apparently think time stopped at that point and the world just stood still.

The biggest lie that has every been told is that investment creates jobs. Bullshit. Consumer activity creates jobs, and unions make sure of consumer activity by making sure that working people get a fair share of the proceeds of an enterprise.

That in turn spurs more consumer activity as other working people make stuff that they buy.

your view of economics and business is, well, infantile.

 

[Harry Dresden]

So far..i have as yet to meet one of them. The working their ass off union member that is.

if you say so.....we have guys that carry their routes plus 2 hours of someone elses route and are on the street for 10 hours.....and if you dont think they are not working their ass off at Christmas time or Election time and when its storming outside and dark....give it a try.....you might find you dont have an ass when you get done....

Assume you are talking about postal workers. What you are actually saying is they only work hard one time a year.... they also don't "carry" their routes... they drive their routes.

tell that to the guy with a satchel over his shoulder..... "carry" is the term we use.....
and yea we work hard once a year.....come on down and give it a shot....the TE's (temp. employees) they hire think its easy too....how hard could it be?....6 out of 10 give it up the first few weeks....and they only have to come in and carry....

 

[Desperado]

Unions at this point, kill an individual's incentive since no matter how good he is, his pay raise will be the same as a bad worker..

/sigh
Again, false.

Care to elaborate on that? If the Union has a collective bargaining agreement for a 2% a year raise, How does one outstanding employee get say a 5% raise in that time frame without getting a promotion? Do they average the raise and take percentages away from non performing employees?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Labor unions have done a lot of good but their more recent history has shown them to be as greedy and corrupt as the corporations they fight against.

Dude they're just lazy....

Our quota was like 180 pieces when I was debossing and forming steel - if we worked the whole time we could have done 220.

We spent the last couple of hours fucking around on our 3pm-1am shift.... Dudes would go to the "bathroom" and read news papers while their partners would go off and talk to other employees.....

The production was like 60% of what if could be if workers actually worked full-time, instead of playing games and wondering off for 45 minutes at a time.

and i worked for a non-union company making Torque Wrenches.....just about the whole floor used to go out at lunch time and smoke some Pot....how much work do you think we got done?......

 

[code1211]

Unions tend to get rid of deadbeats before the company ever knows what happened.

Not in teaching you just have to watch Waiting for superman to know that. They just pass them on to another school if they have tenure. Chris christie says it is almost impossible to fire a teacher with tenure

Tenure is a different protection, that doesn't have anything to do with dumping dead wood. Tenure is a negotiated contract clause, which is vested, usually over 7 years. To dump that, is to risk the more serious problem of limiting academic freedom. I think that's what many on the right want to see happen. They don't want to see anything other than robots teach their kids in rote.

If the result of the current trend is moving us from number 1 to number 23 in the world, I think it can be argued that the current system is not serving the purpose it was intended to serve.

 

[code1211]

Unions provide apprenticeship programs and worker safety and health training. Unions are the only means whereby the commodity of labor (and face it, corporations view labor as a commodity not an asset) can get a fair shake in the free wheeling universe of modern American Capitalism.

Unions provide for fairness in pay, benefit, health and safety and many other work place issues.

I understand why Conservatives hate labor. They have been indoctrinated to think that way. The corporate shills they read and listen to are paid by those who want to wring every once of productivity out of a human and then toss it aside like so much scrap. They don't want a prosperous Middle Class anymore. They want bigger stock prices.

Unions force a work environement where the best trend to the least acceptable.

Jim and Joe both get 6 sick days.
Jim uses all of them...3 as additional vacation days.
Joe uses only 3 of them....and loses the other threee...but hey...he was onlyh sick 3 days.

They both get the same raise per union contract.

Next year both Jim AND Joe use all of their sick days, even though neither one was sick for more than 3 days.

Time is money. Why is it ok for corporations to maximize profit but not laborers?

It is absolutely okay for them to do this.

The issue is not whether or not a worker is paid more. The issue is whether or not the product created is delivered at a lower cost.

If the worker you are citing is only as productive per hour as another worker making half the pay, then the worker you cited is only half as valuable. If that worker is paid at twice the rate and delivers twice the finished product, the issue is a wash.

If he is paid at twice the rate and delivers 4 times the product, he is twice as valuable as the competition.

The key to making more money is the same at the individual level is the same key as at the corporate level. Provide more value and people will pay to get it.

 

[code1211]

Time is money. Why is it ok for corporations to maximize profit but not laborers?

you missed my point.

Not sure how though. It really was not so difficult to grasp.

But whatever.

Have a great day.

I got your point just fine. You think Jim was a bad influence on Joe. I'm saying why is what Jim did wrong? And why shouldn't Joe do it too? Why shouldn't they be allowed to maximize the return on their own investment of time?

You'd be the kind of guy that screws around on his wife if he was sure she wouldn't find out, aren't you.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Labor unions have done a lot of good but their more recent history has shown them to be as greedy and corrupt as the corporations they fight against.

Dude they're just lazy....

Our quota was like 180 pieces when I was debossing and forming steel - if we worked the whole time we could have done 220.

We spent the last couple of hours fucking around on our 3pm-1am shift.... Dudes would go to the "bathroom" and read news papers while their partners would go off and talk to other employees.....

The production was like 60% of what if could be if workers actually worked full-time, instead of playing games and wondering off for 45 minutes at a time.

That is the more recent and true history But let's be fair the unions also played major parts in workers getting better pay, health benefits, safer working conditions. So they have done good over the years but sadly over the years they morphed into what you described.

We also have laws that defend workers rights - unions are now cannon fodder for their original intent...

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Are labor unions good or bad for capitalism and economic growth?

Explain in 300 words or less, please.

Labour unions are bad for capitalism and economic growth because they force companies to view their workers as people. Companies would be so much more profitable if they could work a 14-year old to death. Unions prevent that.

And we were doing so well without you.......

Sigh..

 

[pete]

Like most everything else they start with good intensions, but get out of control/corrupt and in the end more harm than good

I have never joined a union and have worked since having a paper route at 12 friends on the other hand who are in a union are off collecting more than on the job working ... fact

 

[starcraftzzz]

Like most everything else they start with good intensions, but get out of control/corrupt and in the end more harm than good

I have never joined a union and have worked since having a paper route at 12 friends on the other hand who are in a union are off collecting more than on the job working ... fact

Unions lower accidents and increase productivity.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Like most everything else they start with good intensions, but get out of control/corrupt and in the end more harm than good

I have never joined a union and have worked since having a paper route at 12 friends on the other hand who are in a union are off collecting more than on the job working ... fact

Unions lower accidents and increase productivity.

how?.....how does a Union increase productivity?.....the Post Office would like each Carrier to carry 2 routes.....the Union says 1 route will be good enough...

 

[Mr.Nick]

Labor unions have done a lot of good but their more recent history has shown them to be as greedy and corrupt as the corporations they fight against.

Dude they're just lazy....

Our quota was like 180 pieces when I was debossing and forming steel - if we worked the whole time we could have done 220.

We spent the last couple of hours fucking around on our 3pm-1am shift.... Dudes would go to the "bathroom" and read news papers while their partners would go off and talk to other employees.....

The production was like 60% of what if could be if workers actually worked full-time, instead of playing games and wondering off for 45 minutes at a time.

and i worked for a non-union company making Torque Wrenches.....just about the whole floor used to go out at lunch time and smoke some Pot....how much work do you think we got done?......

Yeah and if you got caught your ass was fired.....

When I was union I could show up to work drunk as fuck (if I wanted to) and there was absolutely nothing the owners of said business could say or do..... They could take a point away of my 20 points.... oooo

I could also just take days off to boot - that was 2 points.

Hell you could show up at 12:45 am and work for a half hour and it would be a point...

The union controlled everything and the business controlled nothing...

 

[starcraftzzz]

Like most everything else they start with good intensions, but get out of control/corrupt and in the end more harm than good

I have never joined a union and have worked since having a paper route at 12 friends on the other hand who are in a union are off collecting more than on the job working ... fact

Unions lower accidents and increase productivity.

how?.....how does a Union increase productivity?.....the Post Office would like each Carrier to carry 2 routes.....the Union says 1 route will be good enough...

In England manufacturing plants with union safety committee's experienced
50% less injuries then manufacturing plants without a union presence.
SOURCE: Reilly, Paci & Holl 'unions, safety committees & workplace injuries' BJIR Vol.33, 1995

In GB the total comparable workforce that was unionized saw 24% less injuries/accidents then the part of the workforce that was not unionized.
SOURCE: Nichols, Walters and Tasiran, Working Paper Series No 48, School of Social Sciences, Cardiff, 2004.
SOURCE: Litwin, Trade Unions and Industrial Injury in GB, LSE, 2000

http://www.drake.edu/cbpa/econ/boal/research/acc.pdf
^In America in the early 1900's when coal miners unionized there was a 40% drop in coal mining accidents, and injury. Coal mining employed near 900,000 people and in a year 4.3 out 1000 died due to accidents. So 3,870 died a year. Unionization saved 1,548 coal workers ever year.

/////
In Canada a study found that business with unions were 30% more likely to comply with safety legislation. Meaning unionized workplaces were 30% more likely to reduce accidents/injuries that could be avoided by following through with safety regulations.
SOURCE: Ontario Workplace Health and Safety Agency studies 1994 and 1996
/
http://www.vpppa.org/GovAffairs/PDFs/UnionBenefits.pdf
^90% of union safety representatives are aware of safety regulations which save hundreds of lives and millions of dollars while only 70% of managers are aware of the regulations.
Also 80% of union representatives were trained in safety procedures compared with 44% of managers.

---Why unions have less accidents.
1) Unions are 30% more likely to follow/comply with safety regulations, standards and guidelines.
2) Unions have safety committees whose sole job is to find ways to make the workplace safer.
3) Unions use their bargaining power to make employers make the workplace safer.
4) Unions usually provide better health care meaning more health workers.
5) Union also results in less employee turnover meaning more experienced workers.

www.askneca.com/unionadvantage/Electrical - Biz Plan (2).pdf
^Unionized construction business are 17% more efficient.

http://www.oliverwyman.com/content_images/OW_EN_Automotive_Press_2008_HarbourMedia08.pdf
Union plants win top productivity rankings | UAW
Union Car plants had:
1) 70% of the most efficient assembly plants.
2) All 10 of the most productive plants are union plants.
3) 70% of the most efficient engine plants
4) 80% of the most efficient transmission plants.
5) Union plants assembled their vehicles in fewer hours in 11 of the 12 product categories. Union plants productivity:
1) Small cars was 32% higher.
2) Mid-sized cars was 13% higher.
3) Pickups were 40% higher.

SOURCE: Charles Brown and James L. Medoff, “Trade Unions in the Production Process.” Journal of Political Economy, vol. 86, no. 3 (June 1978): 355–378.
^Scholars Brown and Medoff found that unionized establishments were around 22% more productive.

SOURCE: Harley Shaiken, cited earlier, quoting Richard Freeman and James Medoff, What Do Unions Do? New York, Basic Books, 1984.
^One reason unions are more productive is that Unions result in less employee turnover about 1/5 of unions productivity comes from lower turnover rates.

---Why unions workplaces are more productive.
1) Union workers are better compensated meaning they are happier with their job and more willing to work.
2) Union workers receive better health care benefit’s meaning union workers are less likely to get sick or be sick while working.
3) Unions have lower turnover rates meaning trained workers are always working and you aren’t always training new workers, and also the workers are more experienced.
4) Unions are more likely to offer to train their members meaning workers become better trained; also unions are more likely to train their members with the newest technology.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Unions are shit - half of the (in house) truck drivers are drunk fucks...

One nearly killed me by by almost dropping a load on my head/body...

 

[Mr Natural]

Unions are shit - half of the (in house) truck drivers are drunk fucks...

One nearly killed me by by almost dropping a load on my head/body...

Probably wasn't an accident.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Unions are shit - half of the (in house) truck drivers are drunk fucks...

One nearly killed me by by almost dropping a load on my head/body...

Probably wasn't an accident.

I expect nothing less from progressives advocating murder...

 

[DontBeStupid]

Unions at this point, kill an individual's incentive since no matter how good he is, his pay raise will be the same as a bad worker..

/sigh
Again, false.

Care to elaborate on that? If the Union has a collective bargaining agreement for a 2% a year raise, How does one outstanding employee get say a 5% raise in that time frame without getting a promotion? Do they average the raise and take percentages away from non performing employees?

No. They just give the guy a 5% raise!

No union contract would EVER say "All raises are limited to 2%". That's idiotic. What they say is that all raises must be a minimum of 2%. (For example) Over and above is completely fine. Now I'm sure you'll ask why a company would do that, and the answer is to keep the best employees. It happens way more than most "conservatives" are willing to admit.