Labor Unions...Good or Bad?

[manifold]

And you are wrong....my point was NOT that Jim was a bad influence on Joe.

My point was that Joe did not see any return for being ethical...and actually got LESS time off than the unethical one.

You blabber on about what is ethical as if your opinion on the matter is the only word.

ahhh...so you do not see it as unethical for an employee to call in sick and get paid for the day even though said employee is not sick, but instead wanted to take an extra day off.

Speaks volumes about you.

So your support for capitalism and profit maximization doesn't apply to suppliers of labor. Speaks volumes about you too Sherlock.

 

[Harry Dresden]

ok.... less then 300 words



bad.

Allow me to expand.

Profit > People.

You make it sound as if people have no choice but to work for an employer who treats them poorly.

You happen to be wrong.

Unions are why a minor bathroom renovation in government owned home for the disabled costs 37K when it would only cost a private business 5K.

perhaps the problem here is the people doing the negotiating for the government.....

 

[Skull Pilot]

Allow me to expand.

Profit > People.

You make it sound as if people have no choice but to work for an employer who treats them poorly.

You happen to be wrong.

Unions are why a minor bathroom renovation in government owned home for the disabled costs 37K when it would only cost a private business 5K.

perhaps the problem here is the people doing the negotiating for the government.....

No it's the fact that government will only give jobs to union labor.

 

[starcraftzzz]

REPORT: The American Middle Class Was Built By Unions And It Will Decline Without Them | ThinkProgress
^1) Labour Unions are primarily and mostly responsible for providing us with the weekend, and a 40 hour work week instead of a 60 hour work week that including working on the weekend
2) Unions were the main supported and advocate to ending child labour.
3) Unions started the fight to allow workers to have medical leave

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/b...-steven-brill-book-review.html?_r=2&ref=books
^Most of the nation’s worst performing schools are in states and places were unions are weakest

In England manufacturing plants with union safety committee's experienced
50% less injuries then manufacturing plants without a union presence.
SOURCE: Reilly, Paci & Holl 'unions, safety committees & workplace injuries' BJIR Vol.33, 1995

In GB the total comparable workforce that was unionized saw 24% less injuries/accidents then the part of the workforce that was not unionized.
SOURCE: Nichols, Walters and Tasiran, Working Paper Series No 48, School of Social Sciences, Cardiff, 2004.
SOURCE: Litwin, Trade Unions and Industrial Injury in GB, LSE, 2000

http://www.drake.edu/cbpa/econ/boal/research/acc.pdf
^In America in the early 1900's when coal miners unionized there was a 40% drop in coal mining accidents, and injury. Coal mining employed near 900,000 people and in a year 4.3 out 1000 died due to accidents. So 3,870 died a year. Unionization saved 1,548 coal workers ever year.

/////
In Canada a study found that business with unions were 30% more likely to comply with safety legislation. Meaning unionized workplaces were 30% more likely to reduce accidents/injuries that could be avoided by following through with safety regulations.
SOURCE: Ontario Workplace Health and Safety Agency studies 1994 and 1996
/
http://www.vpppa.org/GovAffairs/PDFs/UnionBenefits.pdf
^90% of union safety representatives are aware of safety regulations which save hundreds of lives and millions of dollars while only 70% of managers are aware of the regulations.
Also 80% of union representatives were trained in safety procedures compared with 44% of managers.

---Why unions have less accidents.
1) Unions are 30% more likely to follow/comply with safety regulations, standards and guidelines.
2) Unions have safety committees whose sole job is to find ways to make the workplace safer.
3) Unions use their bargaining power to make employers make the workplace safer.
4) Unions usually provide better health care meaning more health workers.
5) Union also results in less employee turnover meaning more experienced workers.

www.askneca.com/unionadvantage/Electrical - Biz Plan (2).pdf
^Unionized construction business are 17% more efficient.

http://www.oliverwyman.com/content_images/OW_EN_Automotive_Press_2008_HarbourMedia08.pdf
Union plants win top productivity rankings | UAW
Union Car plants had:
1) 70% of the most efficient assembly plants.
2) All 10 of the most productive plants are union plants.
3) 70% of the most efficient engine plants
4) 80% of the most efficient transmission plants.
5) Union plants assembled their vehicles in fewer hours in 11 of the 12 product categories. Union plants productivity:
1) Small cars was 32% higher.
2) Mid-sized cars was 13% higher.
3) Pickups were 40% higher.

SOURCE: Charles Brown and James L. Medoff, “Trade Unions in the Production Process.” Journal of Political Economy, vol. 86, no. 3 (June 1978): 355–378.
^Scholars Brown and Medoff found that unionized establishments were around 22% more productive.

SOURCE: Harley Shaiken, cited earlier, quoting Richard Freeman and James Medoff, What Do Unions Do? New York, Basic Books, 1984.
^One reason unions are more productive is that Unions result in less employee turnover about 1/5 of unions productivity comes from lower turnover rates.

---Why unions workplaces are more productive.
1) Union workers are better compensated meaning they are happier with their job and more willing to work.
2) Union workers receive better health care benefit’s meaning union workers are less likely to get sick or be sick while working.
3) Unions have lower turnover rates meaning trained workers are always working and you aren’t always training new workers, and also the workers are more experienced.
4) Unions are more likely to offer to train their members meaning workers become better trained; also unions are more likely to train their members with the newest technology.


Exposing What's Wrong With The "Right-To-Work" Myth | Media Matters for America
^Right to work states do not result in higher employment and more job growth
^Right to work results in a 5% decline in total worker benefits.

 

[Charles_Main]

Are labor unions good or bad for capitalism and economic growth?

Explain in 300 words or less, please.

What an incredibly Stupid Question. The Poll is useless. It's not a Yes or no thing.

They can be, and have been Both at times.

 

[Harry Dresden]

And you are wrong....my point was NOT that Jim was a bad influence on Joe.

My point was that Joe did not see any return for being ethical...and actually got LESS time off than the unethical one.

It's not about ethical, it's about the freedom to enter into a contract under law. Why do you hate that?

it is not about ethical?

You enter into contract under law...you sign siad contract...and you lie and say you are sick when you are not......and you dont see that as an issue of ethics?

Wow....another child I am debating with.

No wonder you cant grasp the whole idea of personaol responsibility.

oh christ .....people call in sick everyday who are not sick.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

And you are wrong....my point was NOT that Jim was a bad influence on Joe.

My point was that Joe did not see any return for being ethical...and actually got LESS time off than the unethical one.

You blabber on about what is ethical as if your opinion on the matter is the only word.

ahhh...so you do not see it as unethical for an employee to call in sick and get paid for the day even though said employee is not sick, but instead wanted to take an extra day off.

Speaks volumes about you.

and you have never done this?.....

 

[Meister]

REPORT: The American Middle Class Was Built By Unions And It Will Decline Without Them | ThinkProgress
^1) Labour Unions are primarily and mostly responsible for providing us with the weekend, and a 40 hour work week instead of a 60 hour work week that including working on the weekend
2) Unions were the main supported and advocate to ending child labour.
3) Unions started the fight to allow workers to have medical leave

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/b...-steven-brill-book-review.html?_r=2&ref=books
^Most of the nation’s worst performing schools are in states and places were unions are weakest

In England manufacturing plants with union safety committee's experienced
50% less injuries then manufacturing plants without a union presence.
SOURCE: Reilly, Paci & Holl 'unions, safety committees & workplace injuries' BJIR Vol.33, 1995

In GB the total comparable workforce that was unionized saw 24% less injuries/accidents then the part of the workforce that was not unionized.
SOURCE: Nichols, Walters and Tasiran, Working Paper Series No 48, School of Social Sciences, Cardiff, 2004.
SOURCE: Litwin, Trade Unions and Industrial Injury in GB, LSE, 2000

http://www.drake.edu/cbpa/econ/boal/research/acc.pdf
^In America in the early 1900's when coal miners unionized there was a 40% drop in coal mining accidents, and injury. Coal mining employed near 900,000 people and in a year 4.3 out 1000 died due to accidents. So 3,870 died a year. Unionization saved 1,548 coal workers ever year.

/////
In Canada a study found that business with unions were 30% more likely to comply with safety legislation. Meaning unionized workplaces were 30% more likely to reduce accidents/injuries that could be avoided by following through with safety regulations.
SOURCE: Ontario Workplace Health and Safety Agency studies 1994 and 1996
/
http://www.vpppa.org/GovAffairs/PDFs/UnionBenefits.pdf
^90% of union safety representatives are aware of safety regulations which save hundreds of lives and millions of dollars while only 70% of managers are aware of the regulations.
Also 80% of union representatives were trained in safety procedures compared with 44% of managers.

---Why unions have less accidents.
1) Unions are 30% more likely to follow/comply with safety regulations, standards and guidelines.
2) Unions have safety committees whose sole job is to find ways to make the workplace safer.
3) Unions use their bargaining power to make employers make the workplace safer.
4) Unions usually provide better health care meaning more health workers.
5) Union also results in less employee turnover meaning more experienced workers.

www.askneca.com/unionadvantage/Electrical - Biz Plan (2).pdf
^Unionized construction business are 17% more efficient.

http://www.oliverwyman.com/content_images/OW_EN_Automotive_Press_2008_HarbourMedia08.pdf
Union plants win top productivity rankings | UAW
Union Car plants had:
1) 70% of the most efficient assembly plants.
2) All 10 of the most productive plants are union plants.
3) 70% of the most efficient engine plants
4) 80% of the most efficient transmission plants.
5) Union plants assembled their vehicles in fewer hours in 11 of the 12 product categories. Union plants productivity:
1) Small cars was 32% higher.
2) Mid-sized cars was 13% higher.
3) Pickups were 40% higher.

SOURCE: Charles Brown and James L. Medoff, “Trade Unions in the Production Process.” Journal of Political Economy, vol. 86, no. 3 (June 1978): 355–378.
^Scholars Brown and Medoff found that unionized establishments were around 22% more productive.

SOURCE: Harley Shaiken, cited earlier, quoting Richard Freeman and James Medoff, What Do Unions Do? New York, Basic Books, 1984.
^One reason unions are more productive is that Unions result in less employee turnover about 1/5 of unions productivity comes from lower turnover rates.

---Why unions workplaces are more productive.
1) Union workers are better compensated meaning they are happier with their job and more willing to work.
2) Union workers receive better health care benefit’s meaning union workers are less likely to get sick or be sick while working.
3) Unions have lower turnover rates meaning trained workers are always working and you aren’t always training new workers, and also the workers are more experienced.
4) Unions are more likely to offer to train their members meaning workers become better trained; also unions are more likely to train their members with the newest technology.


Exposing What's Wrong With The "Right-To-Work" Myth | Media Matters for America
^Right to work states do not result in higher employment and more job growth
^Right to work results in a 5% decline in total worker benefits.

Geeze, could you find any sources that were more left than those that you posted?
I laugh at you, Starzzzz

 

[Harry Dresden]

Depends. Different circumstances affect things differently

So are you undecided or can you weigh pros against cons and come up with a choice answer?

I think it goes something like this. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. When a Union is created it's for a reason that is needed... Over time it's a money machine with so much power they actually destroy business.

Public sector Unions should never exists, even FDR knew that and he was about as evil and hatful as it gets when it comes to freedom.

Why?.....do public sector workers get treated better than Private sector.....as far as being treated on the job?....not talking wages....

 

[Harry Dresden]

I really enjoy these undefined terms.

By screwed over...do you mean treated unfairly ?

How is that gauged ?

Here you go.

If someone works at a company 20 years, with a solid work record, should the company be allowed to fire him so they can bring in someone younger and cheaper?

Nice example.

What you need is criteria....or is this the only way someone can get screwed over.

And the answer is...generally if they want to, they can. They can always find a reason to fire you.

Next, 20 years means nothing. It does not say you are worth more.

If you don't get fired, it is because they want to keep you or don't think they can replace you.

What if they come to the 20 year guy and say, you can take a cut or be laid off....cause we can get this job done cheaper ?

Next.

they can do that....but what gets me is....they expect loyalty from you.....but they dont have to show you any loyalty....

 

[Charles_Main]

You blabber on about what is ethical as if your opinion on the matter is the only word.

ahhh...so you do not see it as unethical for an employee to call in sick and get paid for the day even though said employee is not sick, but instead wanted to take an extra day off.

Speaks volumes about you.

and you have never done this?.....

This shit only happens because Unions get a certain Number of Paid Sick Days Built into their Contracts, and you better believe they are going to use every single one of them, Sick or not.

You don't want it to happen, You don't have to not pay people when their sick, Just don't give them a Predetermined Number of Paid Sick days to use every year, that expire if they don't use them, then Act surprised when they Use every last one of them Each Year.

 

[syrenn]

Unions have created a lazy worker who doesn't have pride in their work. When a worker comes in and can do the least they can and get the same pay as the most diligent worker, there is no incentive for anyone to excel at their job. They usually cannot be fired and look for the easy way out.

If we have contract workers who are only rewarded contracts when they excel at their job and prove to be dependable worketrs, the company as whole is rewarded with higher pay and loyal workers.

there are lazy non-union workers too.....and there are Union workers who work their fucking asses off.....

So far..i have as yet to meet one of them. The working their ass off union member that is.

 

[Harry Dresden]

They are okay in the private sector.. They are not okay in the public sector.

cant agree with ya Willow.....Management is Management.....you get treated like shit in the public sector just as well in the private.....and everyone says you got the Dept of Labor to step in....yea right....

that hasn't been my experience harry *shrugs*

try the PO.....as you get older.....they still think you can carry a route as fast as you did when you were 25....and they just dont understand why you cant....you must be screwing us is what they think....

 

[DontBeStupid]

Are labor unions good or bad for capitalism and economic growth?

Explain in 300 words or less, please.

Labour unions are bad for capitalism and economic growth because they force companies to view their workers as people. Companies would be so much more profitable if they could work a 14-year old to death. Unions prevent that.

And this attitude is why companies like the auto industry have gotten robotics to replace humans.

Unions were once good but like everything that becomes too powerful and corrupt, they are now bad.

Unions have made it harder for companies to compete and be more successful and they have given the power of the employee to exploit the employer.

Ah, so you agree with the other "conservatives" here, that we should be able to work an employee to death for a pittance, in order to maximize profit.

Nice. Glad to see you all are putting American workers first.

 

[Harry Dresden]

You make it sound as if people have no choice but to work for an employer who treats them poorly.

You happen to be wrong.

Unions are why a minor bathroom renovation in government owned home for the disabled costs 37K when it would only cost a private business 5K.

perhaps the problem here is the people doing the negotiating for the government.....

No it's the fact that government will only give jobs to union labor.

thats not true.....we have private companies doing things around here all the time from plumbing to Electrical to maintaining the AC units....

 

[Missourian]

Good and Bad.

Good in that labor needs a voice at the table.

Good in that labor counterbalances business.

Bad in that labor now emulates business.

Bad in that labor often impedes productivity.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Unions have created a lazy worker who doesn't have pride in their work. When a worker comes in and can do the least they can and get the same pay as the most diligent worker, there is no incentive for anyone to excel at their job. They usually cannot be fired and look for the easy way out.

If we have contract workers who are only rewarded contracts when they excel at their job and prove to be dependable worketrs, the company as whole is rewarded with higher pay and loyal workers.

there are lazy non-union workers too.....and there are Union workers who work their fucking asses off.....

So far..i have as yet to meet one of them. The working their ass off union member that is.

if you say so.....we have guys that carry their routes plus 2 hours of someone elses route and are on the street for 10 hours.....and if you dont think they are not working their ass off at Christmas time or Election time and when its storming outside and dark....give it a try.....you might find you dont have an ass when you get done....

 

[Trajan]

So are you undecided or can you weigh pros against cons and come up with a choice answer?

I think it goes something like this. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. When a Union is created it's for a reason that is needed... Over time it's a money machine with so much power they actually destroy business.

Public sector Unions should never exists, even FDR knew that and he was about as evil and hatful as it gets when it comes to freedom.

Why?.....do public sector workers get treated better than Private sector.....as far as being treated on the job?....not talking wages....

seriously? take a look around harry....

 

[Desperado]

At one time Unions served a useful purpose, however, at this point they have outlived their usefulness.
Unions at this point, kill an individual's incentive since no matter how good he is, his pay raise will be the same as a bad worker.
Union's are just another deduction from your paycheck.
The money they do take as dues, will go to supporting politicians that you may not agree with.
Thank God I live in a right to work state.

 

[DontBeStupid]

Unions at this point, kill an individual's incentive since no matter how good he is, his pay raise will be the same as a bad worker..

/sigh

Again, false.

Maybe you guys should educate yourself on unions before, you know, talking about unions.