keys to the kingdom

[Agent.Tom]

But see, you can't assume we already agree. The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit. About 40 men penned what God breathed. The proof of that is in what they penned.

What I wrote was not for you, and what you wrote demonstrates that the topic is beyond your grasp.

shut up, go to the back of the class and hear, if you have ears to hear.

If you can't do that find a herd of squealing pigs to join if you want to gibber incoherently about things of which you now nothing and you would feel right at home.

Otherwise I have no choice but to use you as an example for the benefit of those for whom this topic is not beyond their grasp.

I say let Irish Ram speak. The post was relevant and well-thought out.

If this is a private discussion, then why not say so at the beginning so everyone else knows to butt out?

 

[Derideo_Te]

But see, you can't assume we already agree. The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit. About 40 men penned what God breathed. The proof of that is in what they penned.

What I wrote was not for you, and what you wrote demonstrates that the topic is beyond your grasp.

shut up, go to the back of the class and hear, if you have ears to hear.

If you can't do that find a herd of squealing pigs to join if you want to gibber incoherently about things of which you now nothing and you would feel right at home.

Otherwise I have no choice but to use you as an example for the benefit of those for whom this topic is not beyond their grasp.

I say let Irish Ram speak. The post was relevant and well-thought out.

If this is a private discussion, then why not say so at the beginning so everyone else knows to butt out?

No one is being denied the right to contribute. However those that offer nothing of value will be ignored since they are merely distractions from the topic. IR's post might have been well intentioned but he missed the point.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Thank you for the background. I will admit to briefly wondering if you weren't Dan Brown hiding behind that Hobelim tag of yours.

Moving on to your questions above. While I can readily provide modern answers to each of the questions asked above it immediately made me wonder what "hidden" answers would have been in those self same questions five hundred years ago? The "dust of the earth" as we know it contains the minerals that compose our bodies. What would an alchemist have said? What would the average person capable of reading back then have answered? The "fruits" of knowledge would essentially be the same across the ages but the discreet knowledge is what gives me pause. If the same answer doesn't work 500+ years ago then how do we know that it is right now?

The one constant that applies in every culture and nation and language since time began,(hyperbole) is that people have been comparing other people to animals according to similarities in their dominant traits ever since people could talk. A jackass 500 or 5000 years ago meant the exact same thing as a jackass means today, even in every language.

Something like 'dust of the earth' would have a meaning more like what people now understand to be the "scum of the earth." Can you see how understanding the metaphor changes the meaning from something impossible to something that conforms to and is confirmed by reality?

It would be the exact same thing as if you took the word or irish ram from the scum of the earth and taught them a better way and the one thing to avoid was deception only for them to become a snake oil salesman and return to the scum from which they were taken.

Happens all the time.

For that "serpent of knowledge" to have survived it must have had both an excellent disguise and a means to ensure that it stayed intact.

Food for thought is always welcome.

When a person like The Word or Irish Ram convinces some unfortunate worm that the devil is an invisible disembodied entity that whispers inside peoples heads trying to steer them away from the truth that God is triune and edible or that they are an angel of light or a saint or something and that person allows whatever ensuing nonsense to enter and contaminate their thought process what happens is that any intelligent thought or doubt that might arise in their own mind about the garbage their head is being filled with seems to be a demonic attack making them paranoid of their own thoughts. As you know many end up institutionalized or dead with such thought disorders and those who manage to keep it together enough to function responsibly end up being confused alone and duplicitous, a virtual prisoner of the real devil who fucked up their mind who they become dependent on and who really is invisible to them. both an excellent disguise and a means to ensure that it stayed intact.

see how the serpent is the most subtle of all the beasts of the field ?

Ok, the scum of the earth metaphor explanation works but are you implying that the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

 

[hobelim]

What I wrote was not for you, and what you wrote demonstrates that the topic is beyond your grasp.

shut up, go to the back of the class and hear, if you have ears to hear.

If you can't do that find a herd of squealing pigs to join if you want to gibber incoherently about things of which you now nothing and you would feel right at home.

Otherwise I have no choice but to use you as an example for the benefit of those for whom this topic is not beyond their grasp.

I say let Irish Ram speak. The post was relevant and well-thought out.

If this is a private discussion, then why not say so at the beginning so everyone else knows to butt out?

No one is being denied the right to contribute. However those that offer nothing of value will be ignored since they are merely distractions from the topic. IR's post might have been well intentioned but he missed the point.

Yes, IR 'missing the point' of the discussion is the reason for her not being answered directly even though ' missing the point' is subject of the topic of 'the death' promised for disobedience to God according to scripture, evidence of the subject of divine condemnation being discussed, and an example of someone whose mind has been defiled and contaminated by the flesh of a real serpent, every bit as hideous, malicious, murderous, sadistic, deceitful, and perverse as any fairy tale monster ever conceived.

 

[hobelim]

When a person like The Word or Irish Ram convinces some unfortunate worm that the devil is an invisible disembodied entity that whispers inside peoples heads trying to steer them away from the truth that God is triune and edible or that they are an angel of light or a saint or something and that person allows whatever ensuing nonsense to enter and contaminate their thought process what happens is that any intelligent thought or doubt that might arise in their own mind about the garbage their head is being filled with seems to be a demonic attack making them paranoid of their own thoughts. As you know many end up institutionalized or dead with such thought disorders and those who manage to keep it together enough to function responsibly end up being confused alone and duplicitous, a virtual prisoner of the real devil who fucked up their mind who they become dependent on and who really is invisible to them. both an excellent disguise and a means to ensure that it stayed intact.

see how the serpent is the most subtle of all the beasts of the field ?

Ok, the scum of the earth metaphor explanation works but are you implying that the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

No, I was simply revealing the true identity of the serpent and the means by which it remains hidden from any person it deceives, even everybody, in a way that conforms to and is confirmed by reality that can be verified and tested by anyone who cares to. There are even species of serpents that are not religious at all but use the exact same tactics of mind control emotional manipulation and deceit.


what did you mean by asking if the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

If you mean what I think you mean the question reminds me of one of the most troubling and difficult to decipher verses that I ever read in scripture," I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.", rev:22:6, "The bright and morning star', a direct reference to the serpent.

however, I can explain this to show how Jesus claiming the bright and morning star is not a claim of being the devil but a claim of being the rightful owner of that lofty position in the sky above the human landscape. The devil as he is known, is simply an imposter who falsely usurps that place above the ignorant.

 

[hobelim]

The "fruits" of knowledge would essentially be the same across the ages but the discreet knowledge is what gives me pause. If the same answer doesn't work 500+ years ago then how do we know that it is right now?

All the trees in paradise whose fruit is either pleasing to the eye and good to eat or forbidden represent people whose teaching, fruit, is either clean or unclean, the only one forbidden is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That's what Jesus meant by saying , "you will know them by their fruit", their teaching.

Further reading explains why. Knowledge of good and evil without understanding, which is the fruit of the tree of life, is a curse.

How can anyone really know what is good and what is evil if they have no understanding, no guiding light with which to accurately discern between the two?

they can't. Such a diet can only lead to confusion, the death promised for eating the fruit of that tree in defiance of the command of God, which prevents 'man' from reaching out his hand, taking, and eating of the tree of life.

This has always been and will always be true.

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

 

[Derideo_Te]

When a person like The Word or Irish Ram convinces some unfortunate worm that the devil is an invisible disembodied entity that whispers inside peoples heads trying to steer them away from the truth that God is triune and edible or that they are an angel of light or a saint or something and that person allows whatever ensuing nonsense to enter and contaminate their thought process what happens is that any intelligent thought or doubt that might arise in their own mind about the garbage their head is being filled with seems to be a demonic attack making them paranoid of their own thoughts. As you know many end up institutionalized or dead with such thought disorders and those who manage to keep it together enough to function responsibly end up being confused alone and duplicitous, a virtual prisoner of the real devil who fucked up their mind who they become dependent on and who really is invisible to them. both an excellent disguise and a means to ensure that it stayed intact.

see how the serpent is the most subtle of all the beasts of the field ?

Ok, the scum of the earth metaphor explanation works but are you implying that the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

No, I was simply revealing the true identity of the serpent and the means by which it remains hidden from any person it deceives, even everybody, in a way that conforms to and is confirmed by reality that can be verified and tested by anyone who cares to. There are even species of serpents that are not religious at all but use the exact same tactics of mind control emotional manipulation and deceit.


what did you mean by asking if the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

If you mean what I think you mean the question reminds me of one of the most troubling and difficult to decipher verses that I ever read in scripture," I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.", rev:22:6, "The bright and morning star', a direct reference to the serpent.

however, I can explain this to show how Jesus claiming the bright and morning star is not a claim of being the devil but a claim of being the rightful owner of that lofty position in the sky above the human landscape. The devil as he is known, is simply an imposter who falsely usurps that place above the ignorant.

But, but, but....don't you see how that can be taken either way from my perspective? If Jesus is the serpent then by making such a claim he is deceiving everyone into believing that the serpent is the savior and if he isn't then the reference to the morning star AKA the serpent nullifies what he is claiming to be. The interpretation that you want to place on that passage plays right into the hands of the serpent either way.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The "fruits" of knowledge would essentially be the same across the ages but the discreet knowledge is what gives me pause. If the same answer doesn't work 500+ years ago then how do we know that it is right now?

All the trees in paradise whose fruit is either pleasing to the eye and good to eat or forbidden represent people whose teaching, fruit, is either clean or unclean, the only one forbidden is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That's what Jesus meant by saying , "you will know them by their fruit", their teaching.

Further reading explains why. Knowledge of good and evil without understanding, which is the fruit of the tree of life, is a curse.

How can anyone really know what is good and what is evil if they have no understanding, no guiding light with which to accurately discern between the two?

they can't. Such a diet can only lead to confusion, the death promised for eating the fruit of that tree in defiance of the command of God, which prevents 'man' from reaching out his hand, taking, and eating of the tree of life.

This has always been and will always be true.

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

Please explain the hidden meaning behind the tree of life in a little more detail.

 

[hobelim]

Ok, the scum of the earth metaphor explanation works but are you implying that the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

No, I was simply revealing the true identity of the serpent and the means by which it remains hidden from any person it deceives, even everybody, in a way that conforms to and is confirmed by reality that can be verified and tested by anyone who cares to. There are even species of serpents that are not religious at all but use the exact same tactics of mind control emotional manipulation and deceit.


what did you mean by asking if the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

If you mean what I think you mean the question reminds me of one of the most troubling and difficult to decipher verses that I ever read in scripture," I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.", rev:22:6, "The bright and morning star', a direct reference to the serpent.

however, I can explain this to show how Jesus claiming the bright and morning star is not a claim of being the devil but a claim of being the rightful owner of that lofty position in the sky above the human landscape. The devil as he is known, is simply an imposter who falsely usurps that place above the ignorant.

But, but, but....don't you see how that can be taken either way from my perspective? If Jesus is the serpent then by making such a claim he is deceiving everyone into believing that the serpent is the savior and if he isn't then the reference to the morning star AKA the serpent nullifies what he is claiming to be. The interpretation that you want to place on that passage plays right into the hands of the serpent either way.

I understand how you might see it that way especially since Jesus said he would be lifted up like the serpent was lifted up by Moses in the wilderness. John 3:14., another direct reference to Satan. Paradoxical meanings, innuendo, and figurative language in general can be perplexing.

To explain why I do not see Jesus as the serpent and what I know he meant by making this comparison that he would be lifted up 'like the serpent' would require examination of Numbers 21:4-9 and 2 Kings 18:4-6.

Do you want to go in that direction at this point?

And of course anything can be twisted into playing into the hands of the serpent, even as the revelation of the law, and the power of death consequent to setting aside the divine commands has been used by the serpent to amass as many possessions of the mindless human kind as possible from the beginning when the light first came into the world.

 

[Avatar4321]

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

Forgive me for interjecting, but you seem to be conflating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of the tree of life. They are separate trees.

 

[hobelim]

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

Forgive me for interjecting, but you seem to be conflating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of the tree of life. They are separate trees.

Thank you and forgive me if I was not clear. Yes, they are two trees. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is confusion, the tree of life, understanding.

If you seek understanding you will know the difference between good fruit and evil fruit without having to experience the confusion of the knowledge of good and evil without understanding any of it.

 

[hobelim]

The "fruits" of knowledge would essentially be the same across the ages but the discreet knowledge is what gives me pause. If the same answer doesn't work 500+ years ago then how do we know that it is right now?

All the trees in paradise whose fruit is either pleasing to the eye and good to eat or forbidden represent people whose teaching, fruit, is either clean or unclean, the only one forbidden is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That's what Jesus meant by saying , "you will know them by their fruit", their teaching.

Further reading explains why. Knowledge of good and evil without understanding, which is the fruit of the tree of life, is a curse.

How can anyone really know what is good and what is evil if they have no understanding, no guiding light with which to accurately discern between the two?

they can't. Such a diet can only lead to confusion, the death promised for eating the fruit of that tree in defiance of the command of God, which prevents 'man' from reaching out his hand, taking, and eating of the tree of life.

This has always been and will always be true.

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

Please explain the hidden meaning behind the tree of life in a little more detail.

In scripture comprehension is life, the highest aim. And according to scripture, eternal life is the promise for obedience to the law. it follows then that the fruit of the tree of life is understanding how to interpret and conform to the divine commands that results in that promise of life fulfilled. Understanding can only be given or received through words.

Words that convey understanding are words that give life. Words that convey confusion are the fruit of the forbidden tree. Remember? You will know them by their fruit?

Knowing what the fruit is makes the tree of life a little more within reach, however many other trees there are out there whose fruit is pleasing to the eye and good to eat, doesn't it?

 

[BreezeWood]

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

Forgive me for interjecting, but you seem to be conflating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of the tree of life. They are separate trees.

Thank you and forgive me if I was not clear. Yes, they are two trees. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is confusion, the tree of life, understanding.

If you seek understanding you will know the difference between good fruit and evil fruit without having to experience the confusion of the knowledge of good and evil without understanding any of it.

have you not already consumed all the fruits by choosing to read the Bible beyond its first fallacies - Exp. Genesis: Dominion of Nature ...

Choosing Knowledge over Bliss -

how possibly could the knowledge of good and evil be an impediment to reaching the Everlasting - being the extraction of Evil as the primary component for Remission.


per comprehension - not scripture - is life, the highest aim.

 

[hobelim]

Forgive me for interjecting, but you seem to be conflating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of the tree of life. They are separate trees.

Thank you and forgive me if I was not clear. Yes, they are two trees. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is confusion, the tree of life, understanding.

If you seek understanding you will know the difference between good fruit and evil fruit without having to experience the confusion of the knowledge of good and evil without understanding any of it.

have you not already consumed all the fruits by choosing to read the Bible beyond its first fallacies - Exp. Genesis: Dominion of Nature ...

Choosing Knowledge over Bliss -

how possibly could the knowledge of good and evil be an impediment to reaching the Everlasting - being the extraction of Evil as the primary component for Remission.

Per the "Bible"

Dominion over nature, which represents dominion over irrational people figuratively described as all the lower beasts of the field, including the lowest of all wild beasts, the serpent, and dominion over their own base instincts, was the intended purpose of God in elevating Adam and Eve from among all this scum from which they were taken.

In nature, some trees bear no fruit, some only thorns and thistles.

In the story there were many trees whose fruit was pleasing to the eye and good to eat. The fruit of the mind is knowledge.

The knowledge of evil is something entirely different. People who have eaten of this tree cannot distinguish between good and evil even though they are intimately involved with it.

Knowledge is a good thing. Understanding knowledge is better. Knowledge of good and evil without understanding is like a body (of information) without the breath of life.

 

[theword]

The "fruits" of knowledge would essentially be the same across the ages but the discreet knowledge is what gives me pause. If the same answer doesn't work 500+ years ago then how do we know that it is right now?

All the trees in paradise whose fruit is either pleasing to the eye and good to eat or forbidden represent people whose teaching, fruit, is either clean or unclean, the only one forbidden is the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That's what Jesus meant by saying , "you will know them by their fruit", their teaching.

Further reading explains why. Knowledge of good and evil without understanding, which is the fruit of the tree of life, is a curse.

How can anyone really know what is good and what is evil if they have no understanding, no guiding light with which to accurately discern between the two?

they can't. Such a diet can only lead to confusion, the death promised for eating the fruit of that tree in defiance of the command of God, which prevents 'man' from reaching out his hand, taking, and eating of the tree of life.

This has always been and will always be true.

Seek the tree of life and eat of its fruit first and you will always know the difference between knowledge that is good and knowledge that is evil.

Please explain the hidden meaning behind the tree of life in a little more detail.

This is impossible for man to understand but those of us who are "Christ" understand it well.

 

[hobelim]

how possibly could the knowledge of good and evil be an impediment to reaching the Everlasting - being the extraction of Evil as the primary component for Remission.


per comprehension - not scripture - is life, the highest aim.

If someone eats the flesh of a conman, religious or otherwise, they will be conned. That is something very hard to digest, hardly good fruit.

Does anyone really have to eat of that fruit and have that intimate knowledge of evil to understand that bullshit isn't a very good food to allow to enter your mind?

And for those who have how can they possible ever be healed and avoid more knowledge of evil by being conned again and again without reaching out, taking and eating of the tree of life?

 

[theword]

how possibly could the knowledge of good and evil be an impediment to reaching the Everlasting - being the extraction of Evil as the primary component for Remission.


per comprehension - not scripture - is life, the highest aim.

If someone eats the flesh of a conman, religious or otherwise, they will be conned. That is something very hard to digest, hardly good fruit.

Does anyone really have to eat of that fruit and have that intimate knowledge of evil to understand that bullshit isn't a very good food to allow to enter your mind?

And for those who have how can they possible ever be healed and avoid more knowledge of evil by being conned again and again without reaching out, taking and eating of the tree of life?

You should read this comment of yours while looking in a mirror to see if it makes any sense to the image you see in the mirror. Maybe you can get him to laugh like I just did.

 

[hobelim]

how possibly could the knowledge of good and evil be an impediment to reaching the Everlasting - being the extraction of Evil as the primary component for Remission.


per comprehension - not scripture - is life, the highest aim.

If someone eats the flesh of a conman, religious or otherwise, they will be conned. That is something very hard to digest, hardly good fruit.

Does anyone really have to eat of that fruit and have that intimate knowledge of evil to understand that bullshit isn't a very good food to allow to enter your mind?

And for those who have how can they possible ever be healed and avoid more knowledge of evil by being conned again and again without reaching out, taking and eating of the tree of life?

You should read this comment of yours while looking in a mirror to see if it makes any sense to the image you see in the mirror. Maybe you can get him to laugh like I just did.

Not to worry! Seeing you expose yourself as a conman in full view of everyone with that phony response is much funnier than you laughing at my post because you are guilty.

 

[theword]

If someone eats the flesh of a conman, religious or otherwise, they will be conned. That is something very hard to digest, hardly good fruit.

Does anyone really have to eat of that fruit and have that intimate knowledge of evil to understand that bullshit isn't a very good food to allow to enter your mind?

And for those who have how can they possible ever be healed and avoid more knowledge of evil by being conned again and again without reaching out, taking and eating of the tree of life?

You should read this comment of yours while looking in a mirror to see if it makes any sense to the image you see in the mirror. Maybe you can get him to laugh like I just did.

Not to worry! Seeing you expose yourself as a conman in full view of everyone with that phony response is much funnier.

The religious Pharisees thought the saints were conning them, too.

Don't be surprised when the earth begins to shake violently and destroys everything in this world except "Christ".

Isaiah 24
18: He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
19: The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is violently shaken.
20: The earth staggers like a drunken man, it sways like a hut; its transgression lies heavy upon it, and it falls, and will not rise again.

2 Peter 3
10: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11: Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
12: waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
13: But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Derideo_Te]

No, I was simply revealing the true identity of the serpent and the means by which it remains hidden from any person it deceives, even everybody, in a way that conforms to and is confirmed by reality that can be verified and tested by anyone who cares to. There are even species of serpents that are not religious at all but use the exact same tactics of mind control emotional manipulation and deceit.


what did you mean by asking if the serpent is the primary mover and shaker behind the "holy texts"?

If you mean what I think you mean the question reminds me of one of the most troubling and difficult to decipher verses that I ever read in scripture," I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.", rev:22:6, "The bright and morning star', a direct reference to the serpent.

however, I can explain this to show how Jesus claiming the bright and morning star is not a claim of being the devil but a claim of being the rightful owner of that lofty position in the sky above the human landscape. The devil as he is known, is simply an imposter who falsely usurps that place above the ignorant.

But, but, but....don't you see how that can be taken either way from my perspective? If Jesus is the serpent then by making such a claim he is deceiving everyone into believing that the serpent is the savior and if he isn't then the reference to the morning star AKA the serpent nullifies what he is claiming to be. The interpretation that you want to place on that passage plays right into the hands of the serpent either way.

I understand how you might see it that way especially since Jesus said he would be lifted up like the serpent was lifted up by Moses in the wilderness. John 3:14., another direct reference to Satan. Paradoxical meanings, innuendo, and figurative language in general can be perplexing.

To explain why I do not see Jesus as the serpent and what I know he meant by making this comparison that he would be lifted up 'like the serpent' would require examination of Numbers 21:4-9 and 2 Kings 18:4-6.

Do you want to go in that direction at this point?

And of course anything can be twisted into playing into the hands of the serpent, even as the revelation of the law, and the power of death consequent to setting aside the divine commands has been used by the serpent to amass as many possessions of the mindless human kind as possible from the beginning when the light first came into the world.

Yes, let's go in this direction since it seems like it might be useful. Agreed that anything can be twisted but isn't that the very essence of the conundrum you are trying to overcome? Unless there is a way to establish that there can only be a single interpretation and all of them are consistent the message is going to either be garbled or subject to whatever fancy one chooses. Obviously you are serious and so you have found this consistency. What is needed now is to establish the criteria that determines which is the single correct interpretation and that all others are wrong.