Just your average day of "peaceful Islam"...

[Coyote]

It is also written in Muslim Holy Texts that it is permissible to lie to Unbelievers in order to deceive them.

Whatever makes ya'll think that anything a Muslim tells a non-Muslim is reliable?

Taqiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Islam taqiyya تقية (alternative spellings taqiyeh,taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah) is a form of religious dissimulation,[1] or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are at risk of significant persecution.[2]

This practice was emphasized in Shi'a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion.[3] Taqiyya was developed to protect Shi'ites who were usually in minority and under pressure. In the Shi'a view, taqiyya is lawful in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby.[1]

Whatever makes ya'll think that anything a Muslim tells a non-Muslim is reliable?

The same thing that makes me think anything a Jew, Christian or anyone else tells me is reliable. Individual character.

All that is needed is a faux rationale of 'danger to religion' or to 'avoid persecution' and - viola - their consciences are satisfied.

I doubt that one has to roam very far on the Internet to dredge-up specific examples.

You are going to continue to view Islam as the equivalent of Judaism or Christianity vis a vis its compatibility with The West, no matter what anyone says or does to illustrate the contrary position in the matter.

Others (myself included) hold differently. I don't like it. I don't trust it. I don't want it around. It is poison.

I disagree. As do others.

 

[Coyote]

100,000 violent Muslim extremists seems to be a reasonable number....OK fine, make it 250,000...

the extents these terrorist lovers go to, including but not limited to quoting fake stats. And still not a peep, or hint of condemnation or sorrow for people that got blown up in a Church, or were killed in a shopping mall just because they weren't Muslim, by Islamist savages. Which by the way, happens all the time.

You need to check your facts. The people murdered in that shopping mall were both Muslim and Christian and possibly some other faiths.

A 9 year old Muslim boy was shot in the hip, his Muslim mother, and 15 yr old sister were forced to recite passages from the Koran, which they could. They were shot anyway, in front of the little boy.

Al Shabab is a pack of rabid dogs who carry out murder for the purpose of destabilizing countries and furthering religous extremism. No one is defending them.

 

[Coyote]

I think it's disgusting for someone to call a thread disgusting simply because it brings to attention to ongoing horrific body count brought about by intolerant, violent, barbaric Islamists, on innocent people across the globe.

It's called free speech.

It might surprise you but giving my opinion and calling it disgusting, is also "free speech".

You are not the only one allowed that.

 

[Coyote]

It is also written in Muslim Holy Texts that it is permissible to lie to Unbelievers in order to deceive them.

Whatever makes ya'll think that anything a Muslim tells a non-Muslim is reliable?

Taqiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Islam taqiyya تقية (alternative spellings taqiyeh,taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah) is a form of religious dissimulation,[1] or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are at risk of significant persecution.[2]

This practice was emphasized in Shi'a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion.[3] Taqiyya was developed to protect Shi'ites who were usually in minority and under pressure. In the Shi'a view, taqiyya is lawful in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby.[1]

Whatever makes ya'll think that anything a Muslim tells a non-Muslim is reliable?

The same thing that makes me think anything a Jew, Christian or anyone else tells me is reliable. Individual character.

All that is needed is a faux rationale of 'danger to religion' or to 'avoid persecution' and - viola - their consciences are satisfied.

I doubt that one has to roam very far on the Internet to dredge-up specific examples.

You are going to continue to view Islam as the equivalent of Judaism or Christianity vis a vis its compatibility with The West, no matter what anyone says or does to illustrate the contrary position in the matter.

Others (myself included) hold differently. I don't like it. I don't trust it. I don't want it around. It is poison.

Let me ask you a question. The business about Muslims being allowed by their religion to lie is based on a very broad interpretation of Taqiyya - no doubt extremists would use it. How is it any different than the anti-semitic belief that Jews are allowed, by their religion to lie?

Take this example Talmud Encourages Jews To Deceive - which is clearly anti-semitic and replace the references to "jew" with "muslim". The rhetoric is the same.

Is it a valid belief? Either one?

 

[Roudy]

100,000 violent Muslim extremists seems to be a reasonable number....OK fine, make it 250,000...

the extents these terrorist lovers go to, including but not limited to quoting fake stats. And still not a peep, or hint of condemnation or sorrow for people that got blown up in a Church, or were killed in a shopping mall just because they weren't Muslim, by Islamist savages. Which by the way, happens all the time.

You need to check your facts. The people murdered in that shopping mall were both Muslim and Christian and possibly some other faiths.

A 9 year old Muslim boy was shot in the hip, his Muslim mother, and 15 yr old sister were forced to recite passages from the Koran, which they could. They were shot anyway, in front of the little boy.

Al Shabab is a pack of rabid dogs who carry out murder for the purpose of destabilizing countries and furthering religous extremism. No one is defending them.

No you need to check your facts. Another total distortion and misrepresentation.

After they shot people randomly, When the attack began, They announced that all Muslims are free to go, however to prove that you are really a Muslim, you need to recite the daily prayers, or tell them the name of Mohammed's mother.

How far will you go in these whitewashing attempts?

"If you want Kenya in peace, it will not happen as long as your boys are in our lands,'' rebel spokesman Ali Mohamud Rage said in a statement posted on an Islamist website.
Shocked witnesses said the gunmen tried to weed out non-Muslims for execution by interrogating people on their religion or asking them to recite the Shahada, the Muslim profession of faith.

Read more: Boy, 4, confronts gunman as Kenyan troops tighten grip on Nairobi shopping mall siege | News.com.au

Those among the terrified hostages at the mall who failed to prove they were Muslims were selected for execution. Al-Shabaab said two Britons were among those doing the killing. They were Liban Adam, 23, and Ahmed Nasir Shirdoon, 24, both from London. Security agencies have refused to confirm their identities but acknowledge that it would be no surprise if UK citizens were involved.

Kenya shopping mall attack: Who are al-Shabaab, the multinational force of terror at the heart of the Nairobi shopping centre massacre? - Africa - World - The Independent

 

[Roudy]

Taqiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Whatever makes ya'll think that anything a Muslim tells a non-Muslim is reliable?

The same thing that makes me think anything a Jew, Christian or anyone else tells me is reliable. Individual character.

All that is needed is a faux rationale of 'danger to religion' or to 'avoid persecution' and - viola - their consciences are satisfied.

I doubt that one has to roam very far on the Internet to dredge-up specific examples.

You are going to continue to view Islam as the equivalent of Judaism or Christianity vis a vis its compatibility with The West, no matter what anyone says or does to illustrate the contrary position in the matter.

Others (myself included) hold differently. I don't like it. I don't trust it. I don't want it around. It is poison.

Let me ask you a question. The business about Muslims being allowed by their religion to lie is based on a very broad interpretation of Taqiyya - no doubt extremists would use it. How is it any different than the anti-semitic belief that Jews are allowed, by their religion to lie?

Take this example Talmud Encourages Jews To Deceive - which is clearly anti-semitic and replace the references to "jew" with "muslim". The rhetoric is the same.

Is it a valid belief? Either one?

Now diverting attention and lying about Jews.

Like clock work, almost like they are using the same playbook.

 

[Coyote]

All that is needed is a faux rationale of 'danger to religion' or to 'avoid persecution' and - viola - their consciences are satisfied.

I doubt that one has to roam very far on the Internet to dredge-up specific examples.

You are going to continue to view Islam as the equivalent of Judaism or Christianity vis a vis its compatibility with The West, no matter what anyone says or does to illustrate the contrary position in the matter.

Others (myself included) hold differently. I don't like it. I don't trust it. I don't want it around. It is poison.

Let me ask you a question. The business about Muslims being allowed by their religion to lie is based on a very broad interpretation of Taqiyya - no doubt extremists would use it. How is it any different than the anti-semitic belief that Jews are allowed, by their religion to lie?

Take this example Talmud Encourages Jews To Deceive - which is clearly anti-semitic and replace the references to "jew" with "muslim". The rhetoric is the same.

Is it a valid belief? Either one?

Now diverting attention and lying about Jews.

Like clock work, almost like they are using the same playbook.

It's a valid comparison given we were talking about dishonesty and not being able to trust a religion on gp: why is one canard acceptable and the other not?

If you can't answer that question, I understand.

 

[Roudy]

I think it's disgusting for someone to call a thread disgusting simply because it brings to attention to ongoing horrific body count brought about by intolerant, violent, barbaric Islamists, on innocent people across the globe.

It's called free speech.

It might surprise you but giving my opinion and calling it disgusting, is also "free speech".

You are not the only one allowed that.

Bringing to light the truth about Islamic atrocities, or talking about the savagery of Islamic terrorism is not "disgusting". Perhaps you prefer it isn't talked about, out of your compassion and caring for the totally innocent victims of such horrific.

You of all people should know better than to flame a thread by calling it disgusting, all because you can't handle the truth.

 

[Roudy]

Let me ask you a question. The business about Muslims being allowed by their religion to lie is based on a very broad interpretation of Taqiyya - no doubt extremists would use it. How is it any different than the anti-semitic belief that Jews are allowed, by their religion to lie?

Take this example Talmud Encourages Jews To Deceive - which is clearly anti-semitic and replace the references to "jew" with "muslim". The rhetoric is the same.

Is it a valid belief? Either one?

Now diverting attention and lying about Jews.

Like clock work, almost like they are using the same playbook.

It's a valid comparison given we were talking about dishonesty and not being able to trust a religion on gp: why is one canard acceptable and the other not?

If you can't answer that question, I understand.

It's false comparison. When you're talking about Islamists who will do anything to kill Westerners, including KILLING THEMSELVES, lying is the on the bottom of the list of things they believe Islam permits them to do. And in defense of this mindset, you bring up lies and anti Semitic garbage.

Now of course we are totally off topic, which is probably what you aimed to achieve. I guess the post calling the thread disgusting, didn't work much. Let's focus on the Jews now, it always works.

 

[Coyote]

the extents these terrorist lovers go to, including but not limited to quoting fake stats. And still not a peep, or hint of condemnation or sorrow for people that got blown up in a Church, or were killed in a shopping mall just because they weren't Muslim, by Islamist savages. Which by the way, happens all the time.

You need to check your facts. The people murdered in that shopping mall were both Muslim and Christian and possibly some other faiths.

A 9 year old Muslim boy was shot in the hip, his Muslim mother, and 15 yr old sister were forced to recite passages from the Koran, which they could. They were shot anyway, in front of the little boy.

Al Shabab is a pack of rabid dogs who carry out murder for the purpose of destabilizing countries and furthering religous extremism. No one is defending them.

No you need to check your facts. Another total distortion and misrepresentation.

After they shot people randomly, When the attack began, They announced that all Muslims are free to go, however to prove that you are really a Muslim, you need to recite the daily prayers, or tell them the name of Mohammed's mother.

How far will you go in these whitewashing attempts?

"If you want Kenya in peace, it will not happen as long as your boys are in our lands,'' rebel spokesman Ali Mohamud Rage said in a statement posted on an Islamist website.
Shocked witnesses said the gunmen tried to weed out non-Muslims for execution by interrogating people on their religion or asking them to recite the Shahada, the Muslim profession of faith.

Read more: Boy, 4, confronts gunman as Kenyan troops tighten grip on Nairobi shopping mall siege | News.com.au

Those among the terrified hostages at the mall who failed to prove they were Muslims were selected for execution. Al-Shabaab said two Britons were among those doing the killing. They were Liban Adam, 23, and Ahmed Nasir Shirdoon, 24, both from London. Security agencies have refused to confirm their identities but acknowledge that it would be no surprise if UK citizens were involved.

Kenya shopping mall attack: Who are al-Shabaab, the multinational force of terror at the heart of the Nairobi shopping centre massacre? - Africa - World - The Independent

I'm not white washing anything Roudy. I'm pointing out that Muslims were also killed because Al Shabab are extremists.

On NPR they were broadcasting interviews of people who survived the attack and one lady who was a Muslim, had lost 10 relatives. One of them was a child was shot in the hip (he survived) but his mother and 15 year old sister were shot. The excuse given for their execution was that they were not wearing a Hijab.

As I pointed out Al shabab is a pack of rabid dogs. I hope they are shot down on sight for what they've done.

No one is defending them. I just refuse to jump on your Muslim-Hate Bandwagon.

 

[Coyote]

Now diverting attention and lying about Jews.

Like clock work, almost like they are using the same playbook.

It's a valid comparison given we were talking about dishonesty and not being able to trust a religion on gp: why is one canard acceptable and the other not?

If you can't answer that question, I understand.

It's false comparison. When you're talking about Islamists who will do anything to kill Westerners, including KILLING THEMSELVES, lying is the on the bottom of the list of things they believe Islam permits them to do. And in defense of this mindset, you bring up lies and anti Semitic garbage.

Now of course we are totally off topic, which is probably what you aimed to achieve. I guess the post calling the thread disgusting, didn't work much. Let's focus on the Jews now, it always works.

No, Roudy, I have no interest in changing the topic, only in exposing your non-stop double standards when it comes to Islam and other religions.

Keep on pumping out the anti-Islam hate. Personally, I'll focus on hoping they bring Al Shabab down for an accounting and that Al Shabab will find no safe haven anywhere in the world.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Is it a valid belief? Either one?"

Neither is valid nor reliable in that context.

Whereas I have at least read the Q'uran cover-to-cover and reflected upon it, at least...

I am about as far from a Talmud scholar as one can possibly get.

Never laid my hands or eyes upon one.

I'm lucky if I end-up spelling the Anglicized version of the name correctly, never mind understanding its content.

This is the first I've heard of this.

The idea of Permission to Lie to Nonbelievers is pervasive and operative within Islam on a living-breathing basis.

Is the idea of Permsision to Lie to Nonbelievers also pervasive and operative within Judaism on a living-breathing basis?

That is a genuine and sincere question.

 

[Coyote]

"...Is it a valid belief? Either one?"

Neither is valid nor reliable in that context.

Whereas I have at least read the Q'uran cover-to-cover and reflected upon it, at least...

I am about as far from a Talmud scholar as one can possibly get.

Never laid my hands or eyes upon one.

I'm lucky if I end-up spelling the Anglicized version of the name correctly, never mind understanding its content.

This is the first I've heard of this.

The idea of Permission to Lie to Nonbelievers is pervasive and operative within Islam on a living-breathing basis.

Is the idea of Permsision to Lie to Nonbelievers also pervasive and operative within Judaism on a living-breathing basis?

That is a genuine and sincere question.

A genuine and sincere question is this:


Is the idea of Permission to Lie to Nonbelievers pervasive and operative within Islam on a living-breathing basis?

Is the idea of Permsision to Lie to Nonbelievers also pervasive and operative within Judaism on a living-breathing basis?

Answer: No, to either.

I've seen no evidence that either Jews or Muslims as a group are any more dishonest then any other religious group.

Edited to add: reading the Quran does not make one a scholar - there are Hadiths as well.

 

[BullKurtz]

It doesn't take a scholar to see the complete lack of OUTRAGE in the muslim world over this supposed "misinterpretation" of the Koran and what it allows. Quite the opposite, the madrasasas teach any deception to non-muslims is acceptable and adviseable. So when supposed moderates timidly denounce the jihadist nature of modern islam, we Christians shouldn't (and don't) buy it. Muslims not actively and vocally challenging the modern form of islam should be considered side-liners who will quickly change their tune to support open warfare with non-muslim cultures. Discussions about the subltle differences of interpretation of the Koran pale by comparison to the atrocious acts being committed in the name of Muhammad.

 

[Bloodrock44]

And yet all around the world when it comes to terroristic attacks, you can almost guarantee it will be Islamists at the helm.

its a fact, the VAST majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

but the vast majority of terrorists, are Muslim.



its wrong to judge all 1 billion Muslims by the action of maybe 200,000.

I'm glad to see you admit the majority of terrorists are Muslim. Do you consider 200,00 a small number. Looks like a formidable and dangerous number to me. Almost like a small army.

 

[Kondor3]

"Is the idea of Permission to Lie to Nonbelievers pervasive and operative within Islam on a living-breathing basis?

Is the idea of Permsision to Lie to Nonbelievers also pervasive and operative within Judaism on a living-breathing basis?

Answer: No, to either.

I've seen no evidence that either Jews or Muslims as a group are any more dishonest then any other religious group...

I reject your notion that Lying to Nonbelievers is not pervasive and operative within Islam.

It should be relatively easy to pull-up on the Internet, examples of such concepts in operation in our present-day setting, as well as the teachings of various Islamic schools, as pointed-out quite recently here by one of our colleagues.

I accept your notion that Lying to Nonbelievers is pervasive and operative within Judaism; given that this is the first I've heard of that, and that this is not common knowledge, and that we do not see similar easy-to-conjure examples in their daily lives and their schools.

And, when all is said and done, you'll be hard-pressed to provide examples of such Permissions to Lie to Nonbelievers within the New Testament, which is one of the more transparent of the foundational philosophies on which this Christian -leaning Secular Republic of ours is based; a state of affairs that makes Islam's Permission-to-Lie all the more alien and distasteful and untrustworthy, by comparison.

"...Edited to add: reading the Quran does not make one a scholar - there are Hadiths as well."

Of course.

You DID see the phrase 'at least' - embedded within that statement twice - designed to imply lack of scholarly understanding but denoting a layman's (man-on-the-street) familiarity with those writings - atypical, versus your stereotypical Westerner. You did not see either a claim nor an implication of scholarly accomplishment embedded therein, and, yes, I understand that there are Q'uranic commentaries, just as there are Rabbinic commentaries...

 

[Kondor3]

It doesn't take a scholar to see the complete lack of OUTRAGE in the muslim world over this supposed "misinterpretation" of the Koran and what it allows. Quite the opposite, the madrasasas teach any deception to non-muslims is acceptable and adviseable. So when supposed moderates timidly denounce the jihadist nature of modern islam, we Christians shouldn't (and don't) buy it. Muslims not actively and vocally challenging the modern form of islam should be considered side-liners who will quickly change their tune to support open warfare with non-muslim cultures. Discussions about the subltle differences of interpretation of the Koran pale by comparison to the atrocious acts being committed in the name of Muhammad.

Yes...

This IS getting bogged-down in minutiae at the expense of the Big Picture...

I agree...

 

[Godboy]

And yet all around the world when it comes to terroristic attacks, you can almost guarantee it will be Islamists at the helm.

its a fact, the VAST majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

but the vast majority of terrorists, are Muslim.



its wrong to judge all 1 billion Muslims by the action of maybe 200,000.

I'm glad to see you admit the majority of terrorists are Muslim. Do you consider 200,00 a small number. Looks like a formidable and dangerous number to me. Almost like a small army.

He needs to add 3 zeros to that number if he wants to be anywhere close to the truth. Yes, the number of muslims world wide that approve of attacks against americans is over 200,000,000. Look at the polls and do the math.

 

[Coyote]

"Is the idea of Permission to Lie to Nonbelievers pervasive and operative within Islam on a living-breathing basis?

Is the idea of Permsision to Lie to Nonbelievers also pervasive and operative within Judaism on a living-breathing basis?

Answer: No, to either.

I've seen no evidence that either Jews or Muslims as a group are any more dishonest then any other religious group...

I reject your notion that Lying to Nonbelievers is not pervasive and operative within Islam.

It should be relatively easy to pull-up on the Internet, examples of such concepts in operation in our present-day setting, as well as the teachings of various Islamic schools, as pointed-out quite recently here by one of our colleagues.

When you say, as you did - that it is as pervasive as breathing - you are effectively saying it applies to the vast majority of Muslims rather than religious extremists who use such tactics to further their agendas.

I reject that.

Islam is very specific on under what circumstances is can be condoned under and it is by no means broad and sweeping. Like it's sister faiths, Christianity and Judaism, Islam largely forbids lying as a sin. Because sometimes a person's life or family might be put into danger because of their faith, most religions allow some lee way. All three religions were persecuted early on in their history so it's not surprising.

The difference with Islam is that people have decided to take Taqiya and use it to make a case that Muslims are inherently dishonest as a faith - with no other proof then that the faith legitimizes it. They ignore the fact that Islam restricts the conditions under which it can be morally done. The reason I brought up that anti-semitic tract on lying in Judaism was not to change the topic to Jews, but to make a point. People use loopholes to claim a religion is inherently dishonest but ignore the strictures on those loopholes. When it comes to Judaism, we are up front in denouncing it for what it is - a dishonest portrayal of that religions values and we believe the scholars who dissect it as anti-religious propaganda. When it comes to Islam, however, it's the opposite. We denounce the scholars and ignore the many instances the texts prohibiting lying and dishonesty, preferring instead to believe the propoganda.

Making sweeping generalizations about Muslims by digging up a relatively obscure term, Taqiya, is something that the current run of anti-Islam groups push in an attempt to demonize Muslims and create fear.

I accept your notion that Lying to Nonbelievers is pervasive and operative within Judaism; given that this is the first I've heard of that, and that this is not common knowledge, and that we do not see similar easy-to-conjure examples in their daily lives and their schools.

Woah - that is not my notion. Lying is NOT pervasive and operative within Judaism any more than within Christianity or Islam.

And, when all is said and done, you'll be hard-pressed to provide examples of such Permissions to Lie to Nonbelievers within the New Testament, which is one of the more transparent of the foundational philosophies on which this Christian -leaning Secular Republic of ours is based; a state of affairs that makes Islam's Permission-to-Lie all the more alien and distasteful and untrustworthy, by comparison.

You're right - Christianity seems to be far less tolerant of lying than either Judaism or Islam, at least that I can find. But even then - both those religions are very strict in defining under what circumstances it's permissable to lie in and strongly condemn lying.

Read or download What The Quran Says About Liars And Their Methods
Lies
BAKKAH.NET - Stories & articles about Islam, translations of the Muslim scholars, pictures of Makkah, and more!

 

[Coyote]

And yet all around the world when it comes to terroristic attacks, you can almost guarantee it will be Islamists at the helm.

its a fact, the VAST majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

but the vast majority of terrorists, are Muslim.



its wrong to judge all 1 billion Muslims by the action of maybe 200,000.

I'm glad to see you admit the majority of terrorists are Muslim. Do you consider 200,00 a small number. Looks like a formidable and dangerous number to me. Almost like a small army.

In comparison to 1 billion.....?