Judge States Traditional Marriage Was Polygamy

[NYcarbineer]

Fortunately no one is arguing that homosexual marriages are any kind of tradition.

They don't have to. Tradition by itself is not a relevant argument for or against anything.

Well yeah actually it is. It's sometimes called "precedent".

Using tradition as an argument falsely assumes that traditions are all good. They aren't. If tradition were a winning argument we'd still be a monarchy.

 

[The Rabbi]

Who says OUR tradition is Western Europe? Americans come from all over the world.

American traditions based on Western European values???

WHAT A SILLY IDEA!

Everyone knows that the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the entire system was based on verbal traditions of the so-called Native Americans, judiciously mixed with Muslim Sharia law, teachings of Confucius and the wisdom of African culture.

Do you deny that Americans come from all over the world? You mention political traditions. They're hardly the only traditions extant in the U.S.

No one is denying that Americans came from all over. But to say our laws and political system does not come from Western Europe, esp Britain, is simply ignorant.

 

[konradv]

Everyone says that. Regardless of where people come from, the Founders were heirs to the enlightenment. Our government is based on Enlightenment ideals and our laws reflect the traditions of Western Europe, especially Britain. To deny that is silly.

Charlemagne had multiple wives. Monogamy as a standard is actually much less than 2,000 years old. Apparently your knowledge of Western tradition isn't as comprehensive as you think.

So what? You pull one bizarre example and think that's applicable across the board. Please show me which society in western europe practiced polygamy.
For a follow up you can show which societies practiced levirite marriage, as laid down in the Bible.

Charlemagne is hardly a bizarre example, but a fairly common practice in the early Middle Ages. Why bring the Bible into the argument? That's a Middle Eastern not a Western European tradition.

 

[The Rabbi]

They don't have to. Tradition by itself is not a relevant argument for or against anything.

Well yeah actually it is. It's sometimes called "precedent".

Using tradition as an argument falsely assumes that traditions are all good. They aren't. If tradition were a winning argument we'd still be a monarchy.

What an idiotic statement.

The Founders reached back to Athens and Republican Rome for many of their ideas.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It is a tradition, yes. But it is not our tradition. Our tradition in Western Europe, of which we are part, is one man one woman. That is a 2000 year old tradition.

That too is a fallacious assumption. We are not bound by 'western European' traditions, nor should we be. We are supposed to be bound, if we are bound at all, to the fundamental principles of democratic society,

and such principles would not exclude same sex couples from a right to marriage that opposite sex couples have.

I didnt say we were bound by the traditions. That is mangling of what I wrote caused by your low intelligence.
The fundamental principles of a democratic society is that the will of the people is the source of legitimate government. So why are judges striking down pro marriage laws that were passed by popular majorities?

It is the will of the People that we have a constitution that serves as a protector of rights and equality, including for minorities.

The 'popular majority' that put the Constitution in place as the supreme law of the land has not been struck down.

 

[konradv]

American traditions based on Western European values???

WHAT A SILLY IDEA!

Everyone knows that the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the entire system was based on verbal traditions of the so-called Native Americans, judiciously mixed with Muslim Sharia law, teachings of Confucius and the wisdom of African culture.

Do you deny that Americans come from all over the world? You mention political traditions. They're hardly the only traditions extant in the U.S.

No one is denying that Americans came from all over. But to say our laws and political system does not come from Western Europe, esp Britain, is simply ignorant.

I said nothing about laws and political tradition. That was something you pulled out of thin air.

 

[Steven_R]

Who says OUR tradition is Western Europe? Americans come from all over the world.

Everyone says that. Regardless of where people come from, the Founders were heirs to the enlightenment. Our government is based on Enlightenment ideals and our laws reflect the traditions of Western Europe, especially Britain. To deny that is silly.

Charlemagne had multiple wives. Monogamy as a standard is actually much less than 2,000 years old. Apparently your knowledge of Western tradition isn't as comprehensive as you think.

He technically only had one wife at a time. He had current marriages annulled in order to marry the next contestant or ended with a dead wife, and he had multiple women on the side, but that isn't quite the same thing as being in a polygamous situation, at least from a legal standpoint. The church would never have backed him if he had done otherwise.

 

[The Rabbi]

Charlemagne had multiple wives. Monogamy as a standard is actually much less than 2,000 years old. Apparently your knowledge of Western tradition isn't as comprehensive as you think.

So what? You pull one bizarre example and think that's applicable across the board. Please show me which society in western europe practiced polygamy.
For a follow up you can show which societies practiced levirite marriage, as laid down in the Bible.

Charlemagne is hardly a bizarre example, but a fairly common practice in the early Middle Ages. Why bring the Bible into the argument? That's a Middle Eastern not a Western European tradition.

One example from the Middle Ages of an exceptional person is not bizarre? In what world? Please cite evidene that polygamy was widely practiced in the middle ages.
I mention levirite marriage because the judge is a moron. Levirite marriage is no more a tradition of ours than polygamy is.

 

[The Rabbi]

Do you deny that Americans come from all over the world? You mention political traditions. They're hardly the only traditions extant in the U.S.

No one is denying that Americans came from all over. But to say our laws and political system does not come from Western Europe, esp Britain, is simply ignorant.

I said nothing about laws and political tradition. That was something you pulled out of thin air.

The WTF are you arguing about? The thread is about a moron judge saying polygamy is really traditional marriage.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well yeah actually it is. It's sometimes called "precedent".

Using tradition as an argument falsely assumes that traditions are all good. They aren't. If tradition were a winning argument we'd still be a monarchy.

What an idiotic statement.

The Founders reached back to Athens and Republican Rome for many of their ideas.

So there was never a tradition of monarchical rule in Western Europe? That's a big page of history missing from your book, I think.

 

[The Rabbi]

Everyone says that. Regardless of where people come from, the Founders were heirs to the enlightenment. Our government is based on Enlightenment ideals and our laws reflect the traditions of Western Europe, especially Britain. To deny that is silly.

Charlemagne had multiple wives. Monogamy as a standard is actually much less than 2,000 years old. Apparently your knowledge of Western tradition isn't as comprehensive as you think.

He technically only had one wife at a time. He had current marriages annulled in order to marry the next contestant or ended with a dead wife, and he had multiple women on the side, but that isn't quite the same thing as being in a polygamous situation, at least from a legal standpoint. The church would never have backed him if he had done otherwise.

Damn you bringing in facts!

 

[The Rabbi]

Using tradition as an argument falsely assumes that traditions are all good. They aren't. If tradition were a winning argument we'd still be a monarchy.

What an idiotic statement.

The Founders reached back to Athens and Republican Rome for many of their ideas.

So there was never a tradition of monarchical rule in Western Europe? That's a big page of history missing from your book, I think.

Geezus, what are you, 5 years old? Of course there was. There were also other traditions of political systems.

 

[NYcarbineer]

American traditions based on Western European values???

WHAT A SILLY IDEA!

Everyone knows that the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the entire system was based on verbal traditions of the so-called Native Americans, judiciously mixed with Muslim Sharia law, teachings of Confucius and the wisdom of African culture.

Do you deny that Americans come from all over the world? You mention political traditions. They're hardly the only traditions extant in the U.S.

No one is denying that Americans came from all over. But to say our laws and political system does not come from Western Europe, esp Britain, is simply ignorant.

I thought they came from Greece and Rome. Somebody here just said that.

btw, what were the traditions of rule in Greece and Rome prior to democracy/republic.

Didn't those systems diverge from past 'tradition'?

 

[Papageorgio]

If polygamy is our tradition, why is it not allowed for a man to marry many wives right now?

 

[The Rabbi]

Do you deny that Americans come from all over the world? You mention political traditions. They're hardly the only traditions extant in the U.S.

No one is denying that Americans came from all over. But to say our laws and political system does not come from Western Europe, esp Britain, is simply ignorant.

I thought they came from Greece and Rome. Somebody here just said that.

btw, what were the traditions of rule in Greece and Rome prior to democracy/republic.

Didn't those systems diverge from past 'tradition'?

No, no one said that.
You seem to be unable to grasp the concept of multiple streams, or the idea of shades of gray. That is why you are literally too stupid to argue with.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What an idiotic statement.

The Founders reached back to Athens and Republican Rome for many of their ideas.

So there was never a tradition of monarchical rule in Western Europe? That's a big page of history missing from your book, I think.

Geezus, what are you, 5 years old? Of course there was. There were also other traditions of political systems.

So traditions come and go, despite the futile efforts of some to cling to them?

And traditions being abandoned often represents progress?

So what again was your defense for 'tradition'?

 

[konradv]

Charlemagne had multiple wives. Monogamy as a standard is actually much less than 2,000 years old. Apparently your knowledge of Western tradition isn't as comprehensive as you think.

He technically only had one wife at a time. He had current marriages annulled in order to marry the next contestant or ended with a dead wife, and he had multiple women on the side, but that isn't quite the same thing as being in a polygamous situation, at least from a legal standpoint. The church would never have backed him if he had done otherwise.

Damn you bringing in facts!

Facts require evidence. You're hanging your hat on a mere statement without back up. At the time the church DID NOT enforce monogamy.

Chapter VII. Polygamy.

 

[NYcarbineer]

No one is denying that Americans came from all over. But to say our laws and political system does not come from Western Europe, esp Britain, is simply ignorant.

I thought they came from Greece and Rome. Somebody here just said that.

btw, what were the traditions of rule in Greece and Rome prior to democracy/republic.

Didn't those systems diverge from past 'tradition'?

No, no one said that.
You seem to be unable to grasp the concept of multiple streams, or the idea of shades of gray. That is why you are literally too stupid to argue with.

So now you're willing to substitute 'shades of gray' for your previous ironclad pronouncements for the unequivocal superior legitimacy of heterosexual monogamous marriage over all other variants of the institution?

Geez, I think that was what we were trying to convince you of.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The woman is naturally an idiot. Yes, some societies and cultures have polygamy as a traditional form of marriage.
But for 2000 years in the West marriage has been one man and one woman. If 2000 years does not constitute a tradition I am not sure what does.

but not the only tradition, and in the history of mankind, not the dominant tradition

and navyvet's analysis is ignorant

 

[NYcarbineer]

Many native American tribes were polygamous; that was the American tradition.