Judaism and zionism are extreme opposites

[louie888]

I hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005

 

[guno]

I hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005

They are Satmar sect of Hasidim , not the same a Lubavitcher anyone who is Jewish should know this, reading the op it reads like a generic orthodox , thus implying orthodox rejects Zionism

Hasidic groups largely emigrated to the US after the Holocaust. Each sect follows a single grand Rebbe, admiring him to such a degree that his table leftovers are considered blessed. The grand Rebbe position is generally hereditary, although it may pass to a son-in-law (who may have been selected for this) rather than to a son. I can think of two current Hasidic groups that have opted not to replace a beloved Rebbe after he died, and who are thus without a single leader: Breslov, who have been rebbe-less for 200 years, and Chabad (see below.) Aside from Chabad, they are very inward-focused, with the entire sect generally living in either one place, or a short list of communities (e.g. Belzers live in Jerusalem, Borough Park, Brooklyn, and I think Montreal.) The lingua franca is generally Yidish; boys, whose Jewish education is prioritized, may receive very little English education and may speak English poorly and with a heavy accent, even if their family has lived in the US for 4-5 generations. The sexes are even more rigidly separated in non-Chabad Hasidic groups than in other UO groups; for example, wedding celebrations are generally held in two separate rooms, rather than in one large room with a divider. The men tend to have distinctive dress, in the style of Eastern European gentry of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, and I find that when people think of "Orthodox Jew," they tend to be picturing "Hasidic man." Some groups get along quite well (e.g. they may marry across sect lines), and some really don't. I'm not plugged in at all to the intricate world of Hasidic politics, and can't really give you a good overview, but it can get fairly ugly, especially in Israel. This tends to be political/financial rather than purely religious, although they may have slightly different interpretations of halacha (and yes, the narcissism of small differences definitely applies here.)

Chabad is a Hasidic group, one currently riven by a division between those who revere the most recent Rebbe, but acknowledge his death in 1994, and those who still consider him the Messiah. (Frankly, non-Chabad Orthodox Jews find the latter group quite disturbing.) The most recent Rebbe charged his followers with bringing all Jews closer to observance of Jewish law and Judaism. These are the Hasidic Jews who may have asked you if you were Jewish at some point. They do not proselytize outside of Judaism, but can be quite aggressive within it. To that goal, they've founded centers around the world, and may live far from any established Orthodox community at all. They obviously choose to interact with many outside of their own groups, are more MO in terms of gender segregation, and are big fans of the internet and technology, which allows them greater outreach. Other Hasidic groups tend to be uncomfortable with them, and they don't have much social mixing between the two.

Haredim and Zionism - Wikipedia

Groups which do not recognize Israel

Flyer in Meah Shearimwhich declares "No entry to Zionists!"
There are a number Haredi groups which not only oppose Zionism, but also do not recognize the State of Israel. Among them are the Hasidic sects of Shomer Emunim (and its offshoots,Toldos Aharon, and Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok), Mishkenos HoRoim, and Dushinsky. In July 1947, Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, Chief Rabbi of the Jerusalem-based Edah HaChareidis, declared to the United Nations his "definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine". The largest anti-Zionist Hasidic group is Satmar, which has around 130,000 adherents worldwide. The group’s position was crystallized by their charismatic leader, Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, who authored comprehensive and polemic tracts detailing his opposition to Zionism. He encouraged his followers who lived in the "Holy Land" to form self-sufficient communities, rejecting social state benefits, and not to vote in general elections. Anxious not to be viewed as supportive of the actions of the secular Israeli government, which he viewed as an abomination, he instructed people not to visit the Western Wall and other holy sites which had been captured by Israel in the 1967 war. One of the most extreme sects is the Neturei Karta. Formed in 1938 as a breakaway from Agudath Israel, its 5,000 members are based mainly in Jerusalem and Beit Shemesh. A faction within the group openly supports the PLO and Hamas, and calls for the "peaceful dismantling of the Zionist entity".

Groups opposing secular Zionism, but recognizing Israel
The Agudat Israel is an international organization (with an Israeli association) of various Haredi groups, mainly from the Lithuanian yeshiva communities and Hasidic groups such as Ger and Belz. It initially adopted a stance of disregard for the State of Israel, motivated by pragmatism. They attempted to influence the politics of the State of Israel from within, by participating in national elections and sending their representatives to the Israeli Knesset, but still did not take full part in it by not serving in its military, and not celebrating any of the State's official holidays. Today, the organization has shifted over time to somewhat supportive of the state, although not officially recognizing itself as a pro-Zionist party. An example of this is the revolutionary Hesder legions in the IDF, which is a unit that combines religious studies and national service, designed specially for Haredi Jews. The Agudat Israel party in the Knesset is represented as United Torah Judaism, a collective party of Agudat Israel and Degel HaTorah. It tries to influence the Knesset with a pro-Judaism outlook, by mainly focusing on funding for Jewish education (yeshivas), exemption from military service for Haredi yeshiva students, and trying to strengthen Israel's Jewish identity.

 

[Bleipriester]

So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?

Here are some political positions of Israeli parties:
Zionism
Labor Zionism
Liberal Zionism
Revisionist Zionism
Neo-Zionism
World Zionism
Anti-Zionism

Maybe, there could be even more:
Arab Zionism
Drone Zionism
Environment Zionism
Internet Zionism
Saudi Zionism
Two-State Zionism
Welfare Zionism

What do you think?

 

[guno]

I hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005

A true Shanda fur di goyim

 

[louie888]

They are Satmar sect of Hasidim , not the same a Lubavitcher anyone who is Jewish should know this...

No need to post walls of text and yes, Jews should and they do know this. Traditional Jews like Satmar and many other orthodox, reform and conservative Jews believe things like:
--Thou shalt not kill
--Don't steal
--Don't lie
--And beyond that that we are to remain in our diaspora until G-d returns us to our promised land.

The Lubavitcher "Jews" believe and act to the antithesis of these simple concepts that have been Judaism since there has been Judaism. "Jews" of great wealth and power are tied to these sociopaths and directly to Israel. Ttaking land by force, obviously is the antithesis of what G-d conveyed to us.

So they don´t like Zionists. But why don´t they like Israel? What about an Israel not ruled by Zionists?...

What do you think?

It is not that they don't like "Israel." To them it is Palestine and is where a Muslim majority lived peacefully for centuries with a small population of Christians and even a smaller population of Jews. Again, we are to remain in our diaspora until G-d returns us to our promised land.

A true Shanda fur di goyim

LOL

 

[guno]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference
Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

 

[Bleipriester]

It is not that they don't like "Israel." To them it is Palestine and is where a Muslim majority lived peacefully for centuries with a small population of Christians and even a smaller population of Jews. Again, we are to remain in our diaspora until G-d returns us to our promised land.

But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected. Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

 

[louie888]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

 

[Lipush]

It is always nice to know how to make a difference between Satmar and Neturey Karta.

NOT.

 

[fncceo]

I hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005

You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Israel or Jews (Haredi or otherwise). But, if you insist on pretending to be Jewish ... I've got a job at which you'd be perfect.

Kapo

 

[rylah]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

Nahmonides writes: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate. And therefore it's said: "You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"

Maimonides writes: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" (Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, that it was said :" and appease His land [and] His people" (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous "

 

[Bleipriester]

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

That´s not an answer. The wrongdoings of a government don´t justify the rejection of the own country.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

Willing or not, there was nothing they could do about it. And the way from the Balfour Declaration to the state of Israel was very stony because the Brits never intended to keep their word. Jews acting against Germany during WWI is seen as betrayal. Germany was a good home to the Jews and had good relationships with the USA.

The Vaterland, the largest, most modern, secure and comfortable ship on earth arrives in New York:

It was stolen by the Americans when the war broke out and they boasted of the size of our ship:

Look what foolish, gay things they did on our ship, those duncecaps:

Category:Jewish surnames - Wikipedia


PS: I am not that funny guno guy who is whining about Trump day and night. Please properly quote.

 

[Challenger]

I hope this helps clear up the confusion.

Over 10,000 Orthodox Jews protesting the existence of the state of Israel, and the recent beating of Orthodox Jews who protested in Israel against the uprooting of Jewish cemeteries of antiquity which was done in order to enable the construction of a highway #6, near Haifa, Israel – protest in front of the Israeli consulate New York City, Thursday, April 28, 2005

10,000 Demonstrate in NYC Against Israel on April 28, 2005

You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Israel or Jews (Haredi or otherwise). But, if you insist on pretending to be Jewish ... I've got a job at which you'd be perfect.

Kapo

There really should be a version of Godwins Law for those who bring up the Holocaust in every discussion to try to engender sympathy for their cause.

 

[Challenger]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

Nahmonides writes: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate. And therefore it's said: "You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"

Maimonides writes: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" (Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, that it was said :" and appease His land [and] His people" (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous "

...and yet for centuries when there were no travel restrictions on Jewish people throughout Europe, hardly any chose to live in the "Holy Land". Even those that were expelled from their various native lands chose to live anywhere else but.

 

[rylah]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

Nahmonides writes: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate. And therefore it's said: "You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"

Maimonides writes: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" (Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, that it was said :" and appease His land [and] His people" (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous "

...and yet for centuries when there were no travel restrictions on Jewish people throughout Europe, hardly any chose to live in the "Holy Land". Even those that were expelled from their various native lands chose to live anywhere else but.

Quiet the opposite, the amount of Jewish works done by rabbis who returned from exile is vast. Most of todays Shabbat songs, prayers and mysticism was written by established scholars of big schools in the Galilee. People were immigrating coming from Yemen and Spain.

We're talking about a span of roughly 2000 years, and to say that during those dark ages Jews had the conditions to cross continents is just ignorant towards the situation of the Jews in Europe, and the financial as well as existential conditions of the time. Even Maimonides had to move from Israel Egypt after fleeing Spain because of those conditions.

However there were always Jewish communities and established schools- the old Yishuv, or just those who came to die in Israel.
Therefore the communities of different groups of Jews from all around the globe who resided in Jerusalem, Hebron, Galilee, Gaza and elsewhere prior to Zionism.

Baal Shem Tov (the founder of modern Hassidism) and Rabbi Nahman of Breslav tried both to settle but couldn't, however sent at least 4 times thousands of Jews from Poland, Ukraine, and Russia to settle and succeeded.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

Nahmonides writes: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate. And therefore it's said: "You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"

Maimonides writes: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" (Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, that it was said :" and appease His land [and] His people" (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous "

...and yet for centuries when there were no travel restrictions on Jewish people throughout Europe, hardly any chose to live in the "Holy Land". Even those that were expelled from their various native lands chose to live anywhere else but.

Yeah, like during those centuries it was as easy as hopping on an El Al flight. Different times and circumstances.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

Nahmonides writes: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate. And therefore it's said: "You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"

Maimonides writes: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" (Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, that it was said :" and appease His land [and] His people" (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous "

...and yet for centuries when there were no travel restrictions on Jewish people throughout Europe, hardly any chose to live in the "Holy Land". Even those that were expelled from their various native lands chose to live anywhere else but.

Quiet the opposite, the amount of Jewish works done by rabbis who returned from exile is vast. Most of todays Shabbat songs, prayers and mysticism was written by established scholars of big schools in the Galilee. People were immigrating coming from Yemen and Spain.

We're talking about a span of roughly 2000 years, and to say that during those dark ages Jews had the conditions to cross continents is just ignorant towards the situation of the Jews in Europe, and the financial as well as existential conditions of the time. Even Maimonides had to move from Israel Egypt after fleeing Spain because of those conditions.

However there were always Jewish communities and established schools- the old Yishuv, or just those who came to die in Israel.
Therefore the communities of different groups of Jews from all around the globe who resided in Jerusalem, Hebron, Galilee, Gaza and elsewhere prior to Zionism.

Baal Shem Tov (the founder of modern Hassidism) and Rabbi Nahman of Breslav tried both to settle but couldn't, however sent at least 4 times thousands of Jews from Poland, Ukraine, and Russia to settle and succeeded.

Don't forget the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) was started in Sefad during that time period.

 

[rylah]

your op started with orthodox march against Zionism, the garden variety goyim knows no difference

Which is a big reason why I am here explaining this. Israeli shills on this board act like they speak for the Jewish people and pretend the same things - lies - that we are beaten over the head wth by MSM, especially Hollywood.

Not to be nasty, but how much Talmud Torah do you have? or was it just s few years, enough to get you through your Bar Mitzvah

Not at all, it's a fair question. I read from the Torah at my Bar Mitzvah. I never studied the Talmud til years later.

...But there must be a reason this Israel is rejected.

If you have read along, it should be clear. Regardless of how the Israelis act and what they pretend, murder and taking land by force is a big no-no in G-d's eyes.

Sure, this Israel was born out of the hell of the Holocaust, hardly God´s work.

The zionist's role in the holocaust is rarely if ever spoken of, but the zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice Jewish lives because they only wanted immigration to Palestine. Whole other thread, though.

If You ever read the prayers a Jew proclaims 3 times a day, You find out he opposes any human rule or man made law.

If You ever study the Torah or the Talmud it becomes clear that everything is going according to G-d's promises and his people's prophecies.

It's only in the recent days that there's an argument in regards to settling in the land. Mind You those who are fiercely opposed to Zionism are actually living in Zion Jerusalem.

Nahmonides writes: "We were commanded to inherit the land that the Highest G-d gave to our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we won't abandon into the hands of the nations or to be desolate. And therefore it's said: "You'll inherit the land and live in it, because I'll give it to You to inherit. And You'll settle the country, that I've swore to Your fathers" (Numbers 33:53)"

Maimonides writes: " In any circumstance will a person live in Eretz Israel, even in a town where there's a majority of nations, and he shall not live outside of Israel, even in a town with a majority of Israel.That anyone who leaves abroad is like worshiping idols" (Mishne Torah, Book of Judges, Laws of Kings. ch 5, law 12)

He also writes: "The sages said: anyone who settles in Eretz Israel - his sins are forgiven, that it was said (Isaiah 33:24).
Even if he went 4 steps on the land - winning the life of the world to be! And everyone who is buried in it - he was atoned, and it's like the place he's in an altar of atonement, that it was said :" and appease His land [and] His people" (Deuteronomy 32:43). The greatest of sages lead their remnants there. Go learn from Jacob our father and Joseph the righteous "

...and yet for centuries when there were no travel restrictions on Jewish people throughout Europe, hardly any chose to live in the "Holy Land". Even those that were expelled from their various native lands chose to live anywhere else but.

Quiet the opposite, the amount of Jewish works done by rabbis who returned from exile is vast. Most of todays Shabbat songs, prayers and mysticism was written by established scholars of big schools in the Galilee. People were immigrating coming from Yemen and Spain.

We're talking about a span of roughly 2000 years, and to say that during those dark ages Jews had the conditions to cross continents is just ignorant towards the situation of the Jews in Europe, and the financial as well as existential conditions of the time. Even Maimonides had to move from Israel Egypt after fleeing Spain because of those conditions.

However there were always Jewish communities and established schools- the old Yishuv, or just those who came to die in Israel.
Therefore the communities of different groups of Jews from all around the globe who resided in Jerusalem, Hebron, Galilee, Gaza and elsewhere prior to Zionism.

Baal Shem Tov (the founder of modern Hassidism) and Rabbi Nahman of Breslav tried both to settle but couldn't, however sent at least 4 times thousands of Jews from Poland, Ukraine, and Russia to settle and succeeded.

Don't forget the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) was started in Sefad during that time period.

Maybe I'm mistaken in my understanding of the chronology, but as I understand many of the books of Kabalah were written much earlier . The Book of Creation (Sefer haYetsirah) is related to Abraham our father. And the Sefer Hazohar was written by Rabi Shimon bar Yochai.
Only later sages who lived in Israel and who came from Spain wrote down the later works like The Tree of Life by Rabi Chaim Vital.
My mind was 'blown away' reading the first verses of Sefer haYetsirah .
If You understand what this book is about and who passed that Kabalah ('receiving' literally) the imagination immediately reaches its' limit.

 

[montelatici]

I am getting so tired of this bullshit. Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects. A bunch of hocus pocus.

Secondly, this business of any great number of Jews residing in Palestine until the arrival of the European Zionists is propaganda. While a small number of the most religious Spanish Jews evicted from Spain after 1492 who were Ottoman citizens did settle in Palestine, it was a very small number. Almost all of these Spanish Jews settled in Livorno (a free city in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany) or Istanbul. There is source documentation that shows that in the district that encompassed Palestine there were less than 10,000 Jews in 1893. The Ottoman census of 1893 confirms this, and this number include quite a few recent Zionist arrivals from Europe. So how many Jews could there have been in Palestine before the Zionist migration. Here is the table from the 1893 Ottoman census:

The Kudus Special District is Palestine and you will see that there are about 3,900 female Jews and about 4,000 male Jews in the whole of the District in 1893. So again, how many friggin Jews could there have been in Palestine before 1893? You bunch of lying propagandists?

The census document is available online in pdf, but you have to go through some loops. Scribd has a free 30 day download period so you could download it here:

Kemal H.karpat, Ottoman Population, 1830-1914

Or you can try this Russian free service:

Ottoman population, 1830-1914 : demographic and social characteristics / Kemal H. Karpat. book online read or download

The table from 1893 for the Kudus District is around page 144/145

 

[rylah]

I am getting so tired of this bullshit. Firstly, I have no more belief in Judaism than I do in Islam, both are absurd fanatical sects. A bunch of hocus pocus.

Secondly, this business of any great number of Jews residing in Palestine until the arrival of the European Zionists is propaganda. While a small number of the most religious Spanish Jews evicted from Spain after 1492 who were Ottoman citizens did settle in Palestine, it was a very small number. Almost all of these Spanish Jews settled in Livorno (a free city in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany) or Istanbul. There is source documentation that shows that in the district that encompassed Palestine there were less than 10,000 Jews in 1893. The Ottoman census of 1893 confirms this, and this number include quite a few recent Zionist arrivals from Europe. So how many Jews could there have been in Palestine before the Zionist migration. Here is the table from the 1893 Ottoman census:

View attachment 112272

View attachment 112271

The Kudus Special District is Palestine and you will see that there are about 3,900 female Jews and about 4,000 male Jews in the whole of the District in 1893. So again, how many friggin Jews could there have been in Palestine before 1893? You bunch of lying propagandists?

The census document is available online in pdf, but you have to go through some loops. Scribd has a free 30 day download period so you could download it here:

Kemal H.karpat, Ottoman Population, 1830-1914

Or you can try this Russian free service:

Ottoman population, 1830-1914 : demographic and social characteristics / Kemal H. Karpat. book online read or download

The table from 1893 for the Kudus District is around page 144/145

You're tired because Your original premise "there were no Palestinian Jews" was laughable and You disproved it with each reference You've been posting.
All I was saying Jews resided in Israel before the first Zionist immigration, for long and continuously through history, establishing a vast volume of works on that land.

If the numbers are too low for You, it only means that the recent massacres and expulsions of Palestinian Jews, just 50 years earlier, from Hebron, Jerusalem and Sefad were a successful ethnic cleansing by the fellow Arabs.