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Yeah and you sound like the wealthy are going to actually feel the slightest bit of pain from having to pay more.
This isn't about pain. You said the wealth don't pay their fair share. I showed you how that assumption is patently ridiculous.
But, if you want to talk about pain, how about asking the guy that works at the shipyard building yachts for rich guys or maybe the woman who works at the private jet company. When taxes on the rich increase and they delay or forgo purchases on luxury items, who feels the pain? The workers do. When tax increases push the rich to invest overseas or to sit on their capital, who feels pain? The rich guy or the person trying to start a new business, looking for capital investment?
Bullshit. As I pointed out to your previously, raising tax rates on the rich often results in LESS tax revenue to the government, meaning, higher deficits (since nobody's talking about cutting spending). We saw this in France, the UK and California recently. We've seen it many times in America's past.
Sell this turkey, what is the benefit to rest of us to allow the Chinese job creators more cash on the national credit card?
By keeping tax rates low, investment overseas is curtailed. If you want the Chinese to take fewer US jobs, the worst thing you could do is raise tax rates.
It's a spending problem, not a revenue problem.
Trickle down, dump the poor, pretty much what I expected from you.
The better for whom? Seriously, this is the most easily avoidable"crisis" of our lifetime.
The CBO's numbers suggest that the fiscal cliff is good for all of us 10 years out. What say you? Don't want higher taxes for yourself, just for the so called rich? I laugh at that premise.
Doesn't matter that much to me as the Bush tax cuts made no noticeable difference in my life or anyone's life for that matter but there is a lot more at stake here than just a tax hike.
This isn't about pain. You said the wealth don't pay their fair share. I showed you how that assumption is patently ridiculous.
But, if you want to talk about pain, how about asking the guy that works at the shipyard building yachts for rich guys or maybe the woman who works at the private jet company. When taxes on the rich increase and they delay or forgo purchases on luxury items, who feels the pain? The workers do. When tax increases push the rich to invest overseas or to sit on their capital, who feels pain? The rich guy or the person trying to start a new business, looking for capital investment?
Bullshit. As I pointed out to your previously, raising tax rates on the rich often results in LESS tax revenue to the government, meaning, higher deficits (since nobody's talking about cutting spending). We saw this in France, the UK and California recently. We've seen it many times in America's past.
By keeping tax rates low, investment overseas is curtailed. If you want the Chinese to take fewer US jobs, the worst thing you could do is raise tax rates.
It's a spending problem, not a revenue problem.
Trickle down, dump the poor, pretty much what I expected from you.
You saying tax receipts increased following tax rate hikes in California, France and the UK? You saying raising tax rates helps keep capital here in the US. Keeping tax rates from rising on anyone is "dumping the poor"?
We are used to lefties launching ad hominem attacks when logic and reason fail to support their arguments. You can jump in with that crowd or keep and open mind. Your choice.
Tax loopholes are not the same thing as tax rates. I call for an end to all loopholes. The government should not be picking winners and losers through tax code.
Really? Fair share, eh? Do you realize that our rich pay more of the overall tax burden today than they did under Clinton? Do you realize that we have the MOST PROGRESSIVE tax structure in the world? Meaning, our rich pay more of the overall tax burden than in any other country. Just how fair do you expect the rich to be?
My goodness you sound like a broken records of liberal democrat talking points!
BTW, you still have told us what Republicans gifts to the wealthy were "added"...
Yeah and you sound like the wealthy are going to actually feel the slightest bit of pain from having to pay more. Continuing the tax cuts for them is the same as writing them a check on the deficit, what is in the national interest to let their Bush tax cuts continue to add to the deficit? Sell this turkey, what is the benefit to rest of us to allow the Chinese job creators more cash on the national credit card?
Do you really think a family making $250K per year in a major metro is Wealthy?
That's a cop married to a nurse in the Bay Area.
The CBO's numbers suggest that the fiscal cliff is good for all of us 10 years out. What say you? Don't want higher taxes for yourself, just for the so called rich? I laugh at that premise.
Doesn't matter that much to me as the Bush tax cuts made no noticeable difference in my life or anyone's life for that matter but there is a lot more at stake here than just a tax hike.
I would think that going back to the golden years of the Clinton taxes would make the Democrats and Obama have a wet dream.
occupied, it's evident that you don't think we have a spending problem. Taxing the rich doesn't address the spending, the deficit nor the debt in this country, and you will talk about everything else and not address the problem. This is where you fail miserably.
I'm done trying to discuss this issue with your obviously closed mind, All you want to do is place blame on half the problem. (republicans, not independents or democrats)
It's because they are entirely to blame for how they dealt with what they saw as their number one policy agenda, destroying the welfare state under the guise of deficit reduction.
It's because they are entirely to blame for how they dealt with what they saw as their number one policy agenda, destroying the welfare state under the guise of deficit reduction.
Tell us, why would you want to keep "the welfare state" in place? Before you answer, keep in mind that the welfare state started nearly 50 years ago under LBJ. It was his "great society" that was to end poverty and racism.
Well, nearly a half century, and trillions of dollars later, poverty is UP over two percent. But hey, the Black man is thriving, right?
At what point do you being to consider that the welfare state has done more harm than good?
It's because they are entirely to blame for how they dealt with what they saw as their number one policy agenda, destroying the welfare state under the guise of deficit reduction.
Tell us, why would you want to keep "the welfare state" in place? Before you answer, keep in mind that the welfare state started nearly 50 years ago under LBJ. It was his "great society" that was to end poverty and racism.
Well, nearly a half century, and trillions of dollars later, poverty is UP over two percent. But hey, the Black man is thriving, right?
At what point do you being to consider that the welfare state has done more harm than good?
The benefits/downside of the welfare state is another topic entirely but in their attack on the poor it seems they have failed for a simple reason, they could not demonstrate a clear benefit to the country in destroying SS, Medicare, unemployment etc.
just as they cannot demonstrate a clear benefit in continuing to gift the wealthy with tax cuts.
Some of you like to claim that the general populace is too stupid to realize what is best but from my perspective it seems they are just tired of plutocratic policy from the republicans.
Tell us, why would you want to keep "the welfare state" in place? Before you answer, keep in mind that the welfare state started nearly 50 years ago under LBJ. It was his "great society" that was to end poverty and racism.
Well, nearly a half century, and trillions of dollars later, poverty is UP over two percent. But hey, the Black man is thriving, right?
At what point do you being to consider that the welfare state has done more harm than good?
The benefits/downside of the welfare state is another topic entirely but in their attack on the poor it seems they have failed for a simple reason, they could not demonstrate a clear benefit to the country in destroying SS, Medicare, unemployment etc.
Funny, my bitch with the Republicans is that they have done nothing to stop the unconstitutional and ultimately destructive programs you mention.
Look, some of us believe no government can accomplish what free people and free markets can. When you look at how fucked up healthcare and education are, and when you realize those are the two markets in which government meddles most, you begin to see how central planners ALWAYS produce inferior results and skyrocketing costs when the seek to control markets.
I'm not saying end SS, Medicare, etc today. Too many people addicted to the handouts and Ponzi schemes. But phase them out? HELL YES.
just as they cannot demonstrate a clear benefit in continuing to gift the wealthy with tax cuts.
Again, our rich are already paying more of the tax burden than ever before and more than in any other country. There is no way you can call that a "gift" and be taken seriously.
Some of you like to claim that the general populace is too stupid to realize what is best but from my perspective it seems they are just tired of plutocratic policy from the republicans.
This implies Democrats have a better idea. Unless you're on the dole, that is patently insane. Higher taxes and more spending is not the answer. Republicans spend too damn much, true, but at least they understand that tax hikes will not help. If history is any guide, they will hurt revenues.
Free markets and living within our means, now that would be a good start.
The benefits/downside of the welfare state is another topic entirely but in their attack on the poor it seems they have failed for a simple reason, they could not demonstrate a clear benefit to the country in destroying SS, Medicare, unemployment etc.
Funny, my bitch with the Republicans is that they have done nothing to stop the unconstitutional and ultimately destructive programs you mention.
Look, some of us believe no government can accomplish what free people and free markets can. When you look at how fucked up healthcare and education are, and when you realize those are the two markets in which government meddles most, you begin to see how central planners ALWAYS produce inferior results and skyrocketing costs when the seek to control markets.
I'm not saying end SS, Medicare, etc today. Too many people addicted to the handouts and Ponzi schemes. But phase them out? HELL YES.
Again, our rich are already paying more of the tax burden than ever before and more than in any other country. There is no way you can call that a "gift" and be taken seriously.
Some of you like to claim that the general populace is too stupid to realize what is best but from my perspective it seems they are just tired of plutocratic policy from the republicans.
This implies Democrats have a better idea. Unless you're on the dole, that is patently insane. Higher taxes and more spending is not the answer. Republicans spend too damn much, true, but at least they understand that tax hikes will not help. If history is any guide, they will hurt revenues.
Free markets and living within our means, now that would be a good start.
Look, I am trying to keep the discussion on the topic at hand. We do need careful and measured reform but republicans have given entitlement reform a bad name for a long time to come by disingenuously making it about deficit reform and then refusing to expose their own sacred cows to cuts or the wealthy to tax hikes. If you care about entitlement reform then attack it directly not in this tangential fashion where you want working Americans to work five more years but think it's too much to ask the rich to chip in some more.
Funny, my bitch with the Republicans is that they have done nothing to stop the unconstitutional and ultimately destructive programs you mention.
Look, some of us believe no government can accomplish what free people and free markets can. When you look at how fucked up healthcare and education are, and when you realize those are the two markets in which government meddles most, you begin to see how central planners ALWAYS produce inferior results and skyrocketing costs when the seek to control markets.
I'm not saying end SS, Medicare, etc today. Too many people addicted to the handouts and Ponzi schemes. But phase them out? HELL YES.
Again, our rich are already paying more of the tax burden than ever before and more than in any other country. There is no way you can call that a "gift" and be taken seriously.
This implies Democrats have a better idea. Unless you're on the dole, that is patently insane. Higher taxes and more spending is not the answer. Republicans spend too damn much, true, but at least they understand that tax hikes will not help. If history is any guide, they will hurt revenues.
Free markets and living within our means, now that would be a good start.
Look, I am trying to keep the discussion on the topic at hand. We do need careful and measured reform but republicans have given entitlement reform a bad name for a long time to come by disingenuously making it about deficit reform and then refusing to expose their own sacred cows to cuts or the wealthy to tax hikes. If you care about entitlement reform then attack it directly not in this tangential fashion where you want working Americans to work five more years but think it's too much to ask the rich to chip in some more.
No nation on earth depends more on their 'rich' to pay for things than does America.
You were just told that, and you ignore it - just like you ignore it each time your empty rhetoric gets beat down.
Look, I am trying to keep the discussion on the topic at hand. We do need careful and measured reform but republicans have given entitlement reform a bad name for a long time to come by disingenuously making it about deficit reform and then refusing to expose their own sacred cows to cuts or the wealthy to tax hikes. If you care about entitlement reform then attack it directly not in this tangential fashion where you want working Americans to work five more years but think it's too much to ask the rich to chip in some more.
No nation on earth depends more on their 'rich' to pay for things than does America.
You were just told that, and you ignore it - just like you ignore it each time your empty rhetoric gets beat down.
It's because your factoid is qualified by the fact that no other western country has an income divide as large as ours, if it seems the rich pay a lot more it's because they have so much more compared with everyone else. If we had the same middle class income distribution we had in the past it would look very different.
No nation on earth depends more on their 'rich' to pay for things than does America.
You were just told that, and you ignore it - just like you ignore it each time your empty rhetoric gets beat down.
It's because your factoid is qualified by the fact that no other western country has an income divide as large as ours, if it seems the rich pay a lot more it's because they have so much more compared with everyone else. If we had the same middle class income distribution we had in the past it would look very different.
Wrong, as usual. The wealthy in America pay about the same share of the tax burden as they have always paid, proportional to their share of the income.
It's because your factoid is qualified by the fact that no other western country has an income divide as large as ours, if it seems the rich pay a lot more it's because they have so much more compared with everyone else. If we had the same middle class income distribution we had in the past it would look very different.
Wrong, as usual. The wealthy in America pay about the same share of the tax burden as they have always paid, proportional to their share of the income.
You just said the same thing I said, it only looks as if the rich are unfairly taxed because the share of income by the working and middle class has been declining for years. With the middle class in tremendous decline we cannot look to the working class to make up the difference, the only people experiencing income growth must be it.
Wealth redistribution is out of control and has simply choked off our ability to compete.
