JimBowie 1958 and Coloradomtman Debate the Existence of God

[Coloradomtnman]

Howdy all. I don't expect or suspect that I shall change anyone's preconceived and established beliefs concerning God. It seems to me that some folks are naturally inclined to believe in God while others are naturally inclined to reject Him.

Some see purpose in everything that exists in the universe while others see no purpose at all. I happen to see purpose. I see the purpose for the sun. There's a purpose for the earth. There's a purpose for trees. There's a purpose for water. Etc.! It simply seems logical to me that if everything has a purposed then they were purposed to exist. I see beautiful and intricate design in almost everything I look at. So it seems logical to me that an intelligent Designer would have a purpose for His design.

It doesn't seem logical to me to believe that the existence of matter was a mistake. It doesn't seem logical to me that life was a mistake. It doesn't seem logical to me to believe that reason and purpose were mistakes.

So, for me, my belief in God isn't just based on blind faith but on a sense of logic as well.

And for me, the beauty of the universe; just to ponder the symmetry & function is awe inspiring.

Would you be open to explaining how you get from beauty to a personal God?

Here's one possible explanation from another point of view:

https://www.ted.com/talks/denis_dutton_a_darwinian_theory_of_beauty

 

[DriftingSand]

=Coloradomtnman;9633478]

Why do you see purpose? And I stress the word WHY and don't mean HOW. You believe there's purpose to all this, but you don't KNOW that there is purpose to all this.

Why? Because those things I mentioned all work together to sustain life. Sun, water, trees, plants, air, etc. all work together for our benefit. It's like a car engine. We can know "how" all the various components work on an individual basis but when they are work in conjunction we can know why: to propel a vehicle thus making it convenient and expedient to move from one location to another.

By the way, you have proposed a false premise: because you subjectively see purpose does not mean there is purpose. You have a bias that there is purpose to ALL of existence, and you can't but admit that you do and that it could be skewing your observation so that you may see purpose where there is none.

By the same token, refusing to see purpose doesn't mean that there isn't any. When one doesn't want to see God then he most likely won't see God. By refusing to see God he limits himself to only those things that he can see or chooses to see. So you're correct, bias DOES play a role in what folks see or refuse to see.

Which leads to an assumption that just because there, hypothetically, is purpose does not necessarily mean there is a creator. It could just be that the Universe through its own nature, such as a natural selective quality, eliminates those things or objects which serve no purpose to any other thing or object. That could be totally wrong, and seems like it would be, but no one knows whether it is wrong or perfectly correct.

I'm sure we can agree that simple chaos harbors no "purpose." We can agree that chance harbors no "purpose." We can agree that shear nothingness harbors no "purpose." Purpose stems from thought or the ability to think. Purpose has a plan. Purpose has a goal. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that if there is a purpose then it stems from an entity that has the ability to think, plan, and set goals.

Which leads to another assumption: just because there is a creator does not necessarily mean the creator is a personal God. The creator could be a mindless force, or so aloof as not to care, or so alien a mind as to have some other reaction to its own creation that we are unable to understand it.

That's illogical. If God created us then He is our Creator. That's VERY personal. There are many a "could be" floating around out there but if a Creator saw fit to create me and to give me the ability to think and feel and to recognize His existence then I conclude that it was part of His plan and purpose that I recognize His existence and to know Him. Again ... perception is everything.

But, then, again, you may be right! Who knows?

If I'm not then it won't matter in the least when I turn to dust. If I am ... I hope to see you in the Kingdom.

 

[R.D.]

Where is JimBowie

 

[jwoodie]

Descartes famously "proved" the existence of miracles.

I can't tell if you are being serious, snarky, or just trying to bait me.

If it's snarkiness or baiting, congratulations!

If you are being serious, then you don't realize the logical flaws in Descartes' Third Meditation.

That is why I put "proved" within quotation marks. (You are the one who cited him.)

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Descartes famously "proved" the existence of miracles.

I can't tell if you are being serious, snarky, or just trying to bait me.

If it's snarkiness or baiting, congratulations!

If you are being serious, then you don't realize the logical flaws in Descartes' Third Meditation.

That is why I put "proved" within quotation marks. (You are the one who cited him.)

So it was snark or bait or both.

"Jerk!"