JFK and the Unspeakable

[Ryan]

Regarding the deflected first shot, it comes from Posner's book, Case Closed.

The Warren Commission did determine that one man could fire all 3 shots, so I don't understand your last sentence.

*********
I hope the following will explain to your satisfaction that the "lone gunman" theory could not be sustained by the rifle test conducted by the Warren Commision's own tests.

The Warren Commision employed three riflemen rated as Masters by the NRA to fire the Mannlicher Carcano during shooting tests. Out of 5 shooting NRA grades, Master is the highest level and only awarded to the most outstanding riflemen. Two of the riflemen where were civilians and one was in the US Army at the time of the tests. The 6th story window was 60 feet off the ground where the Master Marksmen fired from an elevation estimated by Ronald Simmons, Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Labratory of the Department of the Army, to be 30 feet off the ground. Oswald supposedly fired at moving target where the experts fired at a stationary targets. In the simulated environment these experts could commence firing whenever they were ready where the assassin(s) had to shoot while the target presented itself.

In addition to this circumstance the rifle sight was rebuilt. As Simmmons states, "they could not sight the weapon in," he explains "well they could not sight the weapon in using the telescope." Simmons also pointed out that rifle aiming device was rebuilt by a machinist who added two shims, one which tended to adjust the azmith and the other the elevation. Simmons, just like the riflemen, was employed by the Warren Commission.

The experts fired two series of three shots, 6 each for a total of 18 shots, at three stationary targets placed at distaces of 175, 240 and 265 feet respectively. According to Simmons who arranged the test the targets were not as far apart as they should have been to represent the actual position of the limo. Simmons stated that the condition of the field was a "little awkward."

Of the three experts, only one was able to get off the three shots in the required time where he fired three shots 4.6 and 5.1 seconds. The other two Master Riflemen required 6.45, 6.75, 7.0 and 8.25 seconds. Not one of the 18 shots struck the head or neck area of the targets. These tests where conducted under far less demanding circumstances then was attributed to a below average shooter LHO. So you not only have a rifle and rifleman unable to make these shots but you have 3 outstanding riflemen, not "novices," at far less demanding conditions with a rebuilt scope unable to score one hit on easier shots and only 1 to make the shots in the time frame as determined by the Warren Commission.

This major problem was addressed to some degree by Buglioso where he claims that Oswald used the iron sights. I am not sure what sight picture the Mannlicher Carcano would offer with a scope on the weapon but I addressed the unlikelyhood of that issue in earlier post. What is worth noting is that Bugliosi knows that the rifle and scope on the Manlicher Carcano make for a bad theory.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...

This memo was sent from the Justice Department to the White House on November 25, 1963...3 days after the President was assassinated and one day after Oswald was killed and no longer able to stand trial.

The "intent" of our government in regards to any investigation is CLEAR in this memo and they are mirrored in phone conversations between LBJ and J Edgar Hoover in the same time frame...


Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)

Its also interesting that this lone nut loon refuses to look at my last post on page 5 cause he knows it proves what a pathalogical liar Posner is.This lone nut theorist also is a joke claiming we havent read Posners book when like I said,I got interested in the JFK assassination after the movie came out that I read over a 100 books on it "including" Posners fantasy CASE CLOSED.This lone nut theorist has no credibility in the fact that he refuses to address your points or my last post on page 5 I keep asking him to look at and also that HE wont take me up on my challenge to read CASE OPEN since he obviously only sees what he WANTS to see and just wants to go on all these laughable rants and raves.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

My God, that Wisconsin professor David Wrone is a total fucking idiot --

Massive numbers of factual errors suffuse the book, which make it a veritable minefield. Random samples are the following: Pontchartrain is a lake not a river. The wounded James Tague stood twenty feet east, not under the triple underpass. There were three Philip Geracis, not one; he confuses the second and the third. A tiny fragment, not a bullet, entered Connally's thigh. The Army did the testing that he refers to the FBI. None, not three, commissioners heard at least half the hearings. The Warren Commission did not have any investigators. Captain Donovan is John, not Charles, and a lieutenant. The critics of the official findings are not leftists but include conservatives such as Cardinal Cushing, William Loeb, and former commissioner, Richard Russell.

Unfortunately for Wrone, NONE of this hot air refutes Posner's strong case that Oswald alone killed Kennedy. This guy is obviously desperate -- he is looking for any minor factual error because he can't do ANYTHING to refute Posner's case.

No credible evidence connects Oswald to the murder

Jesus Christ, this guy gets stupider with each paragraph. Here is just some of the evidence from Posner's book that shows that Oswald killed Kennedy --

1) An eyewitness standing directly across the street from the book depository watched Oswald fire all 3 shots. He told the police about it immediately after the assassination. He didn't wait 20 years like the grassy knoll "witnesses"

2) The same rifle that Oswald used to killed Kennedy was also used in an attempt to kill a right-wing politician (General Edmin Walker) at his Dallas home in March 1963. Oswald fired a round through Walker's kitchen window and it was just a fluke of luck that prevented Walker from getting killed. Tests on the bullet for this failed attempt later matched Oswald's rifle. Oswald TOLD his wife that he tried to kill Walker and even took pictures of Walker's house that were later found by the police.

Until you conspiracy loons actually read Posner's book, you should just give this nonsense a rest.

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...

This memo was sent from the Justice Department to the White House on November 25, 1963...3 days after the President was assassinated and one day after Oswald was killed and no longer able to stand trial.

The "intent" of our government in regards to any investigation is CLEAR in this memo and they are mirrored in phone conversations between LBJ and J Edgar Hoover in the same time frame...


Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

I didn't address it because I have no idea what you're trying to imply!! So the Warren Commission changed the location of Kennedy's wounds and this AUTOMATICALLY means a conspiracy??? You're not jumping from A to B, dude...you're jumping from A to X!

Regardless, Posner discusses this in his book and shows that all of these so-called "changes" are total nonsense.

 

[Bfgrn]

My God, that Wisconsin professor David Wrone is a total fucking idiot --



Unfortunately for Wrone, NONE of this hot air refutes Posner's strong case that Oswald alone killed Kennedy. This guy is obviously desperate -- he is looking for any minor factual error because he can't do ANYTHING to refute Posner's case.



Jesus Christ, this guy gets stupider with each paragraph. Here is just some of the evidence from Posner's book that shows that Oswald killed Kennedy --

1) An eyewitness standing directly across the street from the book depository watched Oswald fire all 3 shots. He told the police about it immediately after the assassination. He didn't wait 20 years like the grassy knoll "witnesses"

2) The same rifle that Oswald used to killed Kennedy was also used in an attempt to kill a right-wing politician (General Edmin Walker) at his Dallas home in March 1963. Oswald fired a round through Walker's kitchen window and it was just a fluke of luck that prevented Walker from getting killed. Tests on the bullet for this failed attempt later matched Oswald's rifle. Oswald TOLD his wife that he tried to kill Walker and even took pictures of Walker's house that were later found by the police.

Until you conspiracy loons actually read Posner's book, you should just give this nonsense a rest.

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...

This memo was sent from the Justice Department to the White House on November 25, 1963...3 days after the President was assassinated and one day after Oswald was killed and no longer able to stand trial.

The "intent" of our government in regards to any investigation is CLEAR in this memo and they are mirrored in phone conversations between LBJ and J Edgar Hoover in the same time frame...


Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

I didn't address it because I have no idea what you're trying to imply!! So the Warren Commission changed the location of Kennedy's wounds and this AUTOMATICALLY means a conspiracy??? You're not jumping from A to B, dude...you're jumping from A to X!

Regardless, Posner discusses this in his book and shows that all of these so-called "changes" are total nonsense.

You have NO idea what I'm trying to imply? REALLY???

The single bullet theory depends TOTALLY on the wounds of the two men lining up...THEY DON'T...and I presented PROOF the Warren Commission MOVED the location of the first wound and CHANGED the description in the final report...I don't understand why this isn't clear to you and why you can't see the implications of the wound being moved...

The only nonsense going on here is you, your false accusations and your Posner nonsense... there IS NO "Regardless" if you can't get me past the first set of wounds...

You keep talking conspiracy...I am ONLY talking about physical and medical evidence... The LOGICAL approach is to follow the evidence to a logical conclusion...You can bring out all the Posners in the universe, it can't erase the OBVIOUS flaw in the single bullet theory...

It is clear you are unable to discuss this in an intelligent manner...

 

[Ryan]

Here is a brief snippet from a WS where Howard Donahue gives his opinion on the shooting in Dealey Plaza and just as interesting his view on Gerald Posner. Donahue was one of the 11 riflemen used in the CBS rifle test and in fact Donahue's shooting was best among the riflemen. Donahue has come to believe that the third shot an JFK was an accidental discharge by Secret Service Agent George Hickey. That theory is certainly worth considering but the more important fact is that a volunteer participant in the most extensive test to date holds the belief that the "lone gunman" theory is very unlikely based on the time frames. Here is Donahue' brief observation on Posner and the link.

-----
I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue was a court-certified firearms expert and a world-class marksman. He was invited to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best score of the simulation. He testified in several cases as an expert witness on firearms issues. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's claim (all emphasis is original):

Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner. He will tell you anything to make a point. There were NO SHELLS DENTED IN THAT MANNER BY THE HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's book, SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times. He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case. Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the clip. . . .

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several empties dented like these???

Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch.

Howard Donahue, Firearms Examiner

--------
DENT

 

[Ryan]

Here is another section from a web-sight I find interesting. Of particular interest is the quote of the late Carlos Hathcock, a name that is well known by military shooting enthusiats and would certainly discredit anyone claiming that the "lone gunman" theorists are correct in contending that the string of fire was "easy." It was near to impossible for Oswald to make those shots under the best circumstances and of course the rifle/scope could not be sighted in at the time of the shooting. In view of these facts, how can anyone believe people like Posner and Bugliosi?

----




The impossibility of Oswald's alleged shooting feat was what led former Marine sniper Craig Roberts to reject the lone-gunman theory. Roberts explains as he recounts the first time he visited the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository:

I turned my attention to the window in the southeast corner--the infamous Sniper's Nest. . . . I immediately felt like I had been hit with a sledge hammer. The word that came to mind at what I saw as I looked down through the window to Elm Street and the kill zone was: IMPOSSIBLE!

I knew instantly that Oswald could not have done it. . . . The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was that *I* could not have done it. (KILL ZONE: A SNIPER LOOKS AT DEALEY PLAZA, p. 5)

Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock,

Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90)

Oswald A Poor Shot?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...

This memo was sent from the Justice Department to the White House on November 25, 1963...3 days after the President was assassinated and one day after Oswald was killed and no longer able to stand trial.

The "intent" of our government in regards to any investigation is CLEAR in this memo and they are mirrored in phone conversations between LBJ and J Edgar Hoover in the same time frame...


Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

I didn't address it because I have no idea what you're trying to imply!! So the Warren Commission changed the location of Kennedy's wounds and this AUTOMATICALLY means a conspiracy??? You're not jumping from A to B, dude...you're jumping from A to X!

Regardless, Posner discusses this in his book and shows that all of these so-called "changes" are total nonsense.

You have NO idea what I'm trying to imply? REALLY???

The single bullet theory depends TOTALLY on the wounds of the two men lining up...THEY DON'T...and I presented PROOF the Warren Commission MOVED the location of the first wound and CHANGED the description in the final report...I don't understand why this isn't clear to you and why you can't see the implications of the wound being moved...

The only nonsense going on here is you, your false accusations and your Posner nonsense... there IS NO "Regardless" if you can't get me past the first set of wounds...

You keep talking conspiracy...I am ONLY talking about physical and medical evidence... The LOGICAL approach is to follow the evidence to a logical conclusion...You can bring out all the Posners in the universe, it can't erase the OBVIOUS flaw in the single bullet theory...

It is clear you are unable to discuss this in an intelligent manner...

well said.and dont forget to mention how he wont even look at my last post on page 5 that proves Posner is a liar or is open minded enough to read Case Open either.

 

[Ryan]

I was thumbing through Posner's "Case Closed" looking at some of the shooting information. Some of Posner's data really stood out, I find it interesting to note that he offers the HSCA minimum bolt manipulation time frame to be 1.66 seconds as opposed to the FBI data of 2.25 to 2.3 seconds. As Posner stated, "that minimum time frame is now out of date." What does this mean? Why did Posner not have a further explanation? Could the FBI just had another bad day or those Committee people where just better exhibition shooters?

What Posner should have included is that the rifle tested by the HSCA, to determine the minimum time frame for the operating the bolt, was not the same Carcano that was found on the 6th floor of the school book depository. Any military surplus rifle may vary greatly from the condition of the firearm and even perhaps the original military contract. The operation of the bolt could be very difficult on one rifle and move with complete ease on another rifle. So the time frame is not "out of date," the HSCA data is invalid. This invalid data appears to be an important aspect of Posner's reasoning.

The question then remains, was Posner's research so cursory that he did not know these facts? Or was Posner being dishonest and intentionally duping anyone of the many uninformed who reads his book in good faith?

What bit of evidence still exists from the 3 shooting trials that lending any credibility to the possibility that "lone gunman" theory is even remotely possible? The tests provide much proof against the "lone gunman" theory but nothing to support this theory.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

As I mentioned earlier,people need to be careful when reading Posners book.Its very cleverly written.so cleverly written INITIALLY it had me buying into it.But then he went on to expose himself for the fraud he is by his outright lies I mentioned earlier and the book failed to mention that his law firm is a lobbying firm for the CIA.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Whoa there cowboy...we're talking the law of physics...You've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of a single bullet passing through the President and hitting the Governor in the back is not possible... you really need to explain in detail HOW a bullet entering the President's back at the level of the third thoracic vertebra traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window can exit his throat from a wound six inches higher?

It was fully explained by the Myers animation. The major problem with the "magic bullet" theory was that they wrongly placed John Conally in the front passenger seat. In fact, he was in a jump seat which was located "down and to the left" of the president. That and the fact that the vehicle was headed downhill which raised the president up higher

THEN, you've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of the fatal head wound came from the other side of the street. And again, you claim a bullet traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window exits a wound that is HIGHER and to the right of the entrance wound??

wrong again, the grassy knoll theory of the direction of the bullet was disproved 20 years ago. You really need to get more up to date conspiracy nonsense

THEN, you need to explain how that bullet traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window hit the President in the back of the head and didn't exit through the President's face???

Once again fully demonstrated by accredited computer animation that the angles line up with the wounds. The bullet blew out the side of JFKs head

AND, You say the first shot missed....tell me, where did it go?

Oswalds first shot missed and hit the curb around the presidents vehicle. This fact has been documented since 1963

You are really reaching with your wacky Myers' crap... the guy had to make President Kennedy into a hunchback wearing his jacket like a cape to fudge his cartoon. PLUS, Myers made more than one cartoon, in the first cartoon he placed the "entrance" wound in the FALSE "NECK" location based on the Warren Report. In his second cartoon, he MOVED the wound and disfigured Kennedy...10 years DOWN the f_ckin' drain...LOL. I don't care if Governor Connally was sitting on JFK's lap and the limousine was dropped off a cliff, the trajectory of the "magic" bullet, the location of the "entrance" wound and the supposed "exit" wound DON'T line up...

IF the first bullet missed, it was fired before the limousine came from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder film...the 6th floor window site had a TREE in the way...AND the bullet that missed hit a curb much farther down Elm Street and a fragment hit James Teague in the cheek...Teague was standing near the triple overpass, WAY down the street...

You have to get past the FIRST wound...without it, it was MORE than one gunman...

You're WAY behind cowboy, and I haven't even gotten to the Dallas doctors professional observations and consensus of the President's wounds...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpBDuSJeH14]YouTube - Interview - Dr. Charles Crenshaw[/ame]

This post right here that this lone nut theorist blatantly ignores, proves Posner is delusional and has fantasys about Oswald being the lone assassian.

 

[Againsheila]

Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood. One of my favorites was JFK. It had me rolling in the aisles.

So I surmise you believe the Warren Commission got it right? Now THAT is hilarious...

The Warren Commission did get it right

One day, Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that the President was visiting Dallas and that his motorcade would pass right under his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.

Thats all there is....nothing has disproved that scenario in 45 years.

Watched a series on the history channel. A few seconds after the shots were fired, a police officer, who was right outside the door of the schoolbook depository, ran in. He saw Oswald in the basement, where witnesses had put him all morning. He was not out of breath...there were 7 people on the stairs, none of them had seen Oswald running down the stairs, the elevator took several minutes, now unless you can figure out a way that Oswald could get down 7 floors without being seen in less than 30 seconds....there is no way he could have done it. Unless of course, you call the cop a liar.....

And I don't understand how anyone can believe that magic bullet theory.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Rational man you really need to change your user name to IRRATIONAL MAN.I have read that propaganda of Posners and its filled with tons of lies.the only nonsense is the warren commission and Posners lone nut theory propagated by the government and corporate controlled media.Posner doesnt debunk shit in that book.

Just like the warren commission,he ignores key evidence and facts.He talks about Ed Hoffman the death mute who was there that day in his book and makes up all kinds of lies about him.I know cause I have researched the kennedy assassination ever since 93 and have met witnesses that were there that day including Ed Hoffman.Hoffman told me he cried when he saw all the lies made up about him,words and actions of Hoffmans that Hoffman said he never said or did.He tells out right lies also that Ruby had no connections to the mob.Proven lie.Your ALSO not aware that Maria Oswald herself has called Posner out over the years,saying he is an outright liar and disinformation agent.

You need to read the posts of this thread starter and mine cause we proved you can ONLY have a magic bullet to accomplish the miracles of the fairy tale warren commission and Posners fairy tale.you only educated yourself to the lies and propaganda of the governments that they WANT you to believe.Marina was also on NBC with Tom Brokaw back then in 93 and he was talking to her about Posners book talking about some of the things Marina said and she called Posner out on national tv.She said things like-I never said that.I never said ANY of those things Posner made up. Through my OWN research I discovered Posner was a liar as well.

For instance,he goes and says in his book that the reason the guy who was having a seizure that day was never taken into the hospital that day to account for the fact that there was no record of his admittance there,was he said that according to the ambulance driver,he was feeling much better and was able to get up and walk away.LIE,LIE AND LIE.I know that for a fact it was a lie cause I met that ambulance driver at a JFK conference in Dallas in 93 and he said Posner lied,what he REALLY said was when they got to the hospital,the guy just got up in left. The book is cleverly written,I'll say that much.The first 50 pages or so had me going.

That book actually had me going for a while into thinking that it was the truth,that oswald really WAS the lone assassin.But then after the first 50 pages,he exposed himself for the true liar and disinformation artist he REALLY is.Matter of fact,it was learned later on over the years,that his law firm is a lobbying firm for the CIA.After I got nauseated with all his provem lies he spilled later on in the book,it didnt surprise me at all to learn that about him in the coming years. You really need to be more careful about what you read.Posner has fooled lots of people out there such as yourself.Matter of fact you REALLY should read the rebuttal to that book.Cant remember the authors name who wrote it but he debunks everything Posner says in his book that he wrote appropriately called CASE OPEN.

as does THIS post of mine ALSO prove that Posner has fantasys of Oswald being the lone nut gunman and that he is also a pathetic liar.yeah do this.Finish reading Posners book Case Closed THEN read Harold Weinbergs book-Case Open.Weinberg points out the lies and disinformation of Posner and proves him to be the fraud that he is as well.

 

[OneWorld]

Read it... great book.

 

[Againsheila]

The first shot hit a tree branch and got deflected. That is why he missed Kennedy on the first shot.

It doesn't matter if Oswald was a below average shot in the Marines. He was using a rifle with a scope from a very short distance. A novice could have hit Kennedy.

**********
I have never read that the first shot was deflected by a tree branch but would appreciate you listing your source. I know that a curb was hit by a projectile during the assassination and a piect of concrete hit a by stander. I have never been to Dealey Plaza and cannot say for certain where the tree branches came into play in relation to the limo on Elm Street and the first shot. Based on your post the bullet would been directed by a tree branch to such a great degree that the huge limo would be missed completely. Is that what you are saying?

It's worth noting that Military Snipers are trained to shoot from behind bushes as a form of cover and concealment. Perhaps the projectile is deflected a bit but the benefits out weigh costs and this is differant then Police Sniping. Still though the Oswald shots were supposedly made at a moving target and certainly the tree would have made tracking very difficult for that second follow up shot that hit the upper torso. I am using the Warren Commision tests which employed three Master riflemen, not novices, and the "lone gunman" theory could not be sustained.

Regarding the deflected first shot, it comes from Posner's book, Case Closed.

The Warren Commission did determine that one man could fire all 3 shots, so I don't understand your last sentence.

Question: Why would Oswald wait until the car passed the school book depository to shoot JFK? Why wouldn't he have shot him when he was closer? The car came down the road and turned right in front of the school book depository...any sniper worth his salt would have shot Kennedy then, not when he was driving away.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

So I surmise you believe the Warren Commission got it right? Now THAT is hilarious...

The Warren Commission did get it right

One day, Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that the President was visiting Dallas and that his motorcade would pass right under his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.

Thats all there is....nothing has disproved that scenario in 45 years.

Watched a series on the history channel. A few seconds after the shots were fired, a police officer, who was right outside the door of the schoolbook depository, ran in. He saw Oswald in the basement, where witnesses had put him all morning. He was not out of breath...there were 7 people on the stairs, none of them had seen Oswald running down the stairs, the elevator took several minutes, now unless you can figure out a way that Oswald could get down 7 floors without being seen in less than 30 seconds....there is no way he could have done it. Unless of course, you call the cop a liar.....

And I don't understand how anyone can believe that magic bullet theory.

Their clearly in denial and only see what they WANT to see.What Posner also fails to mention in his book as well is that several of Garrisons investigaters also tried to run down the stairs in the 30 seconds they said Oswald pulled off this miracle feat and they could not do it.they were out of breath and they didnt even come close to making it back down within 30 seconds.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Read it... great book.

I assume your referring to the book Case Open? because yeah,your right that IS a great book.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Oh my God, now I KNOW you are truly delusional and you haven't read Posner's book. Or is you have read it, you are in total denial.

Jim Garrison (Kevin Costner's character) was one of the most corrupt DAs in the history of this country. Even people that worked with him have testified to this. Plus, the guy was kicked out of the Army for mental problems ("paranoia" being one of his many mental problems -- that explains a lot!). He fabricated the ENTIRE FUCKING CASE against Clay Shaw. All Garrison did was completely ruin an innocent man's life. Garrison didn't have a shred of evidence that Oswald knew Shaw or ANY of the people in that movie. He literally pulled that entire case out of his ass because he was a shameless glory hound.

your in serious denial as usual. AGAIN for the 100th freaking time,stop seeing only what you WANT to see and read the freaking book CASE OPEN, it debunks everyone of Posners fantasys .Funny how your afraid to read that book and my last post on page 5 I have to keep repeating to you. Ruined an innocent mans life? your hysterical.It was later learned through the freedom of information act years later that Clay Shaw DID work for the CIA.you crack me up.The reason Garrison couldnt prove it was cause plants of the CIA penetrated his office and knew what he was up to.Also the jury back then, even though they were not convinced that Shaw was guilty since Garrison could not prove it,they WERE convinced it was a conspiracy after looking at the zapruder film.

Dude, Garrison was a total crackpot, just like you. Not even the conspiracy buffs still believe Garrison's bullshit!! (well, except for you). This is a major reason why Oliver Stone was so heavily criticized for making a movie based on Garrison's bullshit book.

you post lies as usual.the only bullshit is the stuff YOU have been posting about Posner.Treating him like he is a god when he is a proven pathalogial liar.as this thread starter has proven to you and you have blantantly ignored.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

My God, that Wisconsin professor David Wrone is a total fucking idiot --



Unfortunately for Wrone, NONE of this hot air refutes Posner's strong case that Oswald alone killed Kennedy. This guy is obviously desperate -- he is looking for any minor factual error because he can't do ANYTHING to refute Posner's case.



Jesus Christ, this guy gets stupider with each paragraph. Here is just some of the evidence from Posner's book that shows that Oswald killed Kennedy --

1) An eyewitness standing directly across the street from the book depository watched Oswald fire all 3 shots. He told the police about it immediately after the assassination. He didn't wait 20 years like the grassy knoll "witnesses"

2) The same rifle that Oswald used to killed Kennedy was also used in an attempt to kill a right-wing politician (General Edmin Walker) at his Dallas home in March 1963. Oswald fired a round through Walker's kitchen window and it was just a fluke of luck that prevented Walker from getting killed. Tests on the bullet for this failed attempt later matched Oswald's rifle. Oswald TOLD his wife that he tried to kill Walker and even took pictures of Walker's house that were later found by the police.

Until you conspiracy loons actually read Posner's book, you should just give this nonsense a rest.

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...

This memo was sent from the Justice Department to the White House on November 25, 1963...3 days after the President was assassinated and one day after Oswald was killed and no longer able to stand trial.

The "intent" of our government in regards to any investigation is CLEAR in this memo and they are mirrored in phone conversations between LBJ and J Edgar Hoover in the same time frame...


Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)

Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

I didn't address it because I have no idea what you're trying to imply!! So the Warren Commission changed the location of Kennedy's wounds and this AUTOMATICALLY means a conspiracy??? You're not jumping from A to B, dude...you're jumping from A to X!

Regardless, Posner discusses this in his book and shows that all of these so-called "changes" are total nonsense.

read my post FIRST post on page 11,I posted it for you AGAIN since you keep ignoring it,it PROVES Posner is delusional and has fantasys about oswald being the lone assassian and that he is a pathalogical liar.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

The first shot hit a tree branch and got deflected. That is why he missed Kennedy on the first shot.

It doesn't matter if Oswald was a below average shot in the Marines. He was using a rifle with a scope from a very short distance. A novice could have hit Kennedy.

**********
I have never read that the first shot was deflected by a tree branch but would appreciate you listing your source. I know that a curb was hit by a projectile during the assassination and a piect of concrete hit a by stander. I have never been to Dealey Plaza and cannot say for certain where the tree branches came into play in relation to the limo on Elm Street and the first shot. Based on your post the bullet would been directed by a tree branch to such a great degree that the huge limo would be missed completely. Is that what you are saying?

It's worth noting that Military Snipers are trained to shoot from behind bushes as a form of cover and concealment. Perhaps the projectile is deflected a bit but the benefits out weigh costs and this is differant then Police Sniping. Still though the Oswald shots were supposedly made at a moving target and certainly the tree would have made tracking very difficult for that second follow up shot that hit the upper torso. I am using the Warren Commision tests which employed three Master riflemen, not novices, and the "lone gunman" theory could not be sustained.

Regarding the deflected first shot, it comes from Posner's book, Case Closed.

The Warren Commission did determine that one man could fire all 3 shots, so I don't understand your last sentence.

Question: Why would Oswald wait until the car passed the school book depository to shoot JFK? Why wouldn't he have shot him when he was closer? The car came down the road and turned right in front of the school book depository...any sniper worth his salt would have shot Kennedy then, not when he was driving away.

yeah thats what I was saying earlier.As the diagram points out that the thread starter was kind enough to furnish for us which I just posted again above on this page,is Oswald was going to take the shot,he would have done it where he has a clear open view and clear target which is what he had on Houston coming towards him.He sure as hell wouldnt wait till he got onto Elm and drove away where the shot was MUCH more difficult.Matter of fact,I cant remember the authors name but he wrote a book called A SNIPERS NEST.

He was a highly decorated marksmen in vietnam and years later after the assassination,he was up in dallas for some convention for his job,so while waiting around,he went up to the school depository and he knew immediately,that the warren commissions explantion that oswald fired the rifle,was B.S.he knew it cause he knew HE could not have done it.It was a moving target and with an unreliable carcano rifle to shoot with,those conditions made it impossible to pull it off.Not to mention the investigaters found oswalds rifle scope to be badly misalingned and thet the trees were in full bloom as well back then also making it impossible.and like i said earlier as well,he also mentioned in his book that he had dozens of kills and he never once saw a persons head go BACKWARDSs when he shot them from behind.plus anybody who knows anything at all about forensics knows the blood goes forward NOT backwards when shooting them from behind as well.yet the driver and the secret serviceman in front of connely were not splattered with blood but the police motercycle patrolmen riding behind the wheel of kennedy was.to accept the warren commissions version and Posners fantasys,you got to say that the laws of physics that scientisits have gone by for thousands of years,no longer apply anymore.

 

[Kerry Won Ohio]

your in serious denial as usual. AGAIN for the 100th freaking time,stop seeing only what you WANT to see and read the freaking book CASE OPEN, it debunks everyone of Posners fantasys .Funny how your afraid to read that book and my last post on page 5 I have to keep repeating to you. Ruined an innocent mans life? your hysterical.It was later learned through the freedom of information act years later that Clay Shaw DID work for the CIA.you crack me up.The reason Garrison couldnt prove it was cause plants of the CIA penetrated his office and knew what he was up to.Also the jury back then, even though they were not convinced that Shaw was guilty since Garrison could not prove it,they WERE convinced it was a conspiracy after looking at the zapruder film.

Dude, Garrison was a total crackpot, just like you. Not even the conspiracy buffs still believe Garrison's bullshit!! (well, except for you). This is a major reason why Oliver Stone was so heavily criticized for making a movie based on Garrison's bullshit book.

you post lies as usual.the only bullshit is the stuff YOU have been posting about Posner.Treating him like he is a god when he is a proven pathalogial liar.as this thread starter has proven to you and you have blantantly ignored.

Posner is a "proven pathalogical liar", but Garrisson is not?? That's fucking hilarious!! You are truly stupid!!

You probably haven't even read Posner's book, like all of the conspiracy dipshits on this thread. None of you idiots have refuted anything meaningful in his book.

This is an indisputable fact -- the ONLY SHOOTER identified by witnesses on the day of the assassination was Oswald on the 6th floor of the book depository. NO WITNESSES mentioned seeing any other shooters on the grassy knoll or anywhere else.

The fact that you actually still BELIEVE Garrisson's bullshit shows that you are hopelessly lost. The 1970s are over, moron.