Jesus- Son of God. No trinity! Read first.

[Avatar4321]

Is it possible the Trinity refers to three inseparable aspects of consciousness--that which cannot be imagined or described-- and that they are 'conveniently' labeled; Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Or There could literally be The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

I belive in God the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Take it to mean whatever you want. But them's the facts.

 

[Terral]

Hi Avatar:

Or There could literally be The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

I belive in God the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Take it to mean whatever you want. But them's the facts.

Let's try understanding the "Son of God" (Christ = F+S+HS) through a series of simple precepts that teach the 'Trinity:'

1. "My Father Who Is IN HEAVEN" is the 'spirit witness' of 'The Word.'
2. The Son is the 'blood witness' of 'The Word.'
3. The Holy Spirit is the 'water witness' of 'The Word.'

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three witnesses of God's Living Word in the very same way that you have . . .

. . . a spirit, soul and body. Jesus Christ is the Father 'and' the Son 'and' the Holy Spirit all rolled into one "Son of God." However, God also has three witnesses of His very own!

The three witnesses of "The Almighty" are speaking and working in Genesis 1, while the three witnesses of "The Word/Son" are speaking and working in Genesis 2+. This Adamic Creation also has three witnesses of spirit (Heavens), blood (Heaven) and water (Earth) shown here:

The reason that most of you have no idea about what any of this means is because you do not know the difference between the "Only True God" (The Almighty) and "My Father Who Is IN HEAVEN" (spirit witness of The Word).

Those differences (again) are explained here.

The Mystery Of God's Hidden Wisdom is explained here.

GL,

Terral

 

[theHawk]

Terral, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously with that ridiculous signature?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Terral, I think you need to go talk to the Mormon missionaries.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Terral is just a nutter.

 

[Smartt33]

OK, if that is true, then you should not have a hard time telling us just how the doctrine of the trinity changes anything (makes a difference) about salvation, God's Creation, His plan for eternity, the return of Christ, Heaven and Hell, and the Christian life.

I would just like to see these anyway. I personmally am not sure that having the doctrine of trinity or not changes anything about what the Bible says about anything. No one understands the trinity enough to explain it anyway.

Just a thought though:

Jesus used the words, "I am He," when a question about his being God, or the Father.

He did not say that.. He said He is IN me and I am in him, and He is in you.

ALL of the answers are in the good book- the book of John...

Jesus said:
John 3:16 " snip...."[/SIZE]

Case closed.

I am going to weed through that very long post and see if I can make a few responses. I do like this kind of discuaaion, but they take a long time.
Oh, I did respond to the first statement.

 

[JD_2B]

The Isaiah verse, Isaiah 9:6 6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Is a prophesy.. not God speaking. Therefore it is subject to interpretation, before the bible was even translated. When these perceptions of what God was trying to convey to the prophets were written, they were not necessarily literal.. Like in Isaiah 8, it says "take a pen".. it is not literally saying a pen. They used, what quills in the days of the translation to English, and what did they use before Christ, thousands of years prior? Not a pen, anyways..

This verse is good, though- it leads me to two potential conclusions of who Jesus really is:

Scenario #1) He is exactly who I originally thought he was, and YES he tends to be called the Counselor and Mighty God, etc. (The fact that the bible tells the whole truth, even about how mislead we are, is evident in the baptising of Jesus- in John 12:27- on God speaking to jesus- that is a long held wives tale, debunked right here-

"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"
Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. )

So, yes- People DO call him the Mighty God, that is what I believe, and that is further proof of prophesy that the world will be deceived even as who who Jesus really is.

However.. I will grant you this much..

Scenario #2) - God is in the process of resigning as being God. He has clearly given Jesus all kinds of instruction and knowledge.. And made Jesus the new Leader among us. I don't believe that this makes Jesus our God, YET, though. I think this may take place in the End of Days, (After the second death) possibly, because It does say in the very end of Revelations that Jesus says all kinds of things about salvation and such, and it is just a new beginning- a whole new everything for us, to be experienced with him. Or, God stays God and Jesus stays the son of God, and whatever. LOL! Who knows what the future holds..

 

[Care4all]

JD...it's like a flock of birds that are freezing to death out side, in A sub zero weather/storm....

a man sees this and opens his heated barn doors to let them in, so that they would be safe and warm and not die out in the blizzard ....

but none in the flock understood what this man was trying to show them, and they stayed outside of the barn, instead of in the safety of the warm barn....

the man is so distraught to see the birds dying off, one by one freezing to death, a horrid death.


He despairingly watches the birds and WISHES he could turn himself in to a bird in that flock....SO THAT he could show them the WAY to safety in to the barn, the way to keep their life.....

Take this analogy, and substitute the man with God, and the flock with humans, and turning himself in to a bird to show the confused birds the way in to the warm barn....as God manifesting himself in to Jesus to show us the way to safety/ to everlasting life because we just didn't understand what He was trying to show and tell us.

 

[Sky Dancer]

JD...it's like a flock of birds that are freezing to death out side, in A sub zero weather/storm....

a man sees this and opens his heated barn doors to let them in, so that they would be safe and warm and not die out in the blizzard ....

but none in the flock understood what this man was trying to show them, and they stayed outside of the barn, instead of in the safety of the warm barn....

the man is so distraught to see the birds dying off, one by one freezing to death, a horrid death.


He despairingly watches the birds and WISHES he could turn himself in to a bird in that flock....SO THAT he could show them the WAY to safety in to the barn, the way to keep their life.....

Take this analogy, and substitute the man with God, and the flock with humans, and turning himself in to a bird to show the confused birds the way in to the warm barn....as God manifesting himself in to Jesus to show us the way to safety/ to everlasting life because we just didn't understand what He was trying to show and tell us.

That's one way of looking at it, and a beautiful analogy. You could just look at this as pure aspects of consciousness too.

The man could be substituted for the natural responsiveness that comes out of the realization of the absolute truth that you label 'god'. The flock could be all of us who have not realized the essence nature of the absolute truth yet, but will in the future because we have this potential. We will realize it by practicing moment to moment knowing our inseparability..

All of us are inseparable from what we conveniently label God, and Jesus and from the natural responsiveness and the truth. We just haven't realized it yet.

"I am the Way the Truth and the Life". John 14:6

Just a possible consideration.

 

[JD_2B]

JD...it's like a flock of birds that are freezing to death out side, in A sub zero weather/storm....

a man sees this and opens his heated barn doors to let them in, so that they would be safe and warm and not die out in the blizzard ....

but none in the flock understood what this man was trying to show them, and they stayed outside of the barn, instead of in the safety of the warm barn....

the man is so distraught to see the birds dying off, one by one freezing to death, a horrid death.


He despairingly watches the birds and WISHES he could turn himself in to a bird in that flock....SO THAT he could show them the WAY to safety in to the barn, the way to keep their life.....

Take this analogy, and substitute the man with God, and the flock with humans, and turning himself in to a bird to show the confused birds the way in to the warm barn....as God manifesting himself in to Jesus to show us the way to safety/ to everlasting life because we just didn't understand what He was trying to show and tell us.

Care4all, I like you very much, You are a very sensitive and loving person- but I have to remind you that your analogy here does not coincide with Jesus being with God at Creation, as well as Jesus praying to God while on earth. If Jesus was an incarnation of God himself, then Jesus would not need to pray to him or refer to him as "my father", or say that he was "authorized by him" to do the things he did. It just does NOT make sense.

The only POSSIBLE way that any of this makes sense, is if God is merely a concept, rather than the real deal. We both know this is not the case.

How can anyone say that there is one true God, and still say that he is three, and at the same time of that, say that him incarnating himself into three separate but equal beings, while still having to rationalize one of the three having discussions and learning sessions, and all this, with "HIS" father, whom is said to really be incarnated as his own self??

God is God.

Jesus is the son of God- a man with the authority to both judge and heal- to get people to find God, THROUGH him.

The Holy Spirit is not an entity, but the teachings that are true, from followers of Christ's teachings.

Oneness is not a diving sharing of an entity, but the divine sharing of a common cause, something that Jesus wished upon all of us to have. We, the children of God, can be ONE with God, just like Jesus was ONE with God. Being one with God or each other does not make us suddenly become God or each other. It makes us united in God-like justice, love, and reform.

 

[Sky Dancer]

JD...it's like a flock of birds that are freezing to death out side, in A sub zero weather/storm....

a man sees this and opens his heated barn doors to let them in, so that they would be safe and warm and not die out in the blizzard ....

but none in the flock understood what this man was trying to show them, and they stayed outside of the barn, instead of in the safety of the warm barn....

the man is so distraught to see the birds dying off, one by one freezing to death, a horrid death.


He despairingly watches the birds and WISHES he could turn himself in to a bird in that flock....SO THAT he could show them the WAY to safety in to the barn, the way to keep their life.....

Take this analogy, and substitute the man with God, and the flock with humans, and turning himself in to a bird to show the confused birds the way in to the warm barn....as God manifesting himself in to Jesus to show us the way to safety/ to everlasting life because we just didn't understand what He was trying to show and tell us.

Care4all, I like you very much, You are a very sensitive and loving person- but I have to remind you that your analogy here does not coincide with Jesus being with God at Creation, as well as Jesus praying to God while on earth. If Jesus was an incarnation of God himself, then Jesus would not need to pray to him or refer to him as "my father", or say that he was "authorized by him" to do the things he did. It just does NOT make sense.

The only POSSIBLE way that any of this makes sense, is if God is merely a concept, rather than the real deal. We both know this is not the case.

How can anyone say that there is one true God, and still say that he is three, and at the same time of that, say that him incarnating himself into three separate but equal beings, while still having to rationalize one of the three having discussions and learning sessions, and all this, with "HIS" father, whom is said to really be incarnated as his own self??

God is God.

Jesus is the son of God- a man with the authority to both judge and heal- to get people to find God, THROUGH him.

The Holy Spirit is not an entity, but the teachings that are true, from followers of Christ's teachings.

Oneness is not a diving sharing of an entity, but the divine sharing of a common cause, something that Jesus wished upon all of us to have. We, the children of God, can be ONE with God, just like Jesus was ONE with God. Being one with God or each other does not make us suddenly become God or each other. It makes us united in God-like justice, love, and reform.

What about 'I and the Father are one?'

 

[ABikerSailor]

There is a book called "The Tao is Silent" by Raymond M. Smullyan.

Chapter 20 is titled "Is God a Taoist", and it's a discussion between a mortal and God concerning the concept of free will.

During the conversation, when the mortal is asking about the nature of God, He tells the mortal that He's really not any THING, he's more like a process than anything else.

Which, brings to mind the OG quote of "don't hate the player, just hate the game". Well........guess what, God IS the game, and we are all players.

I'm just wondering why people would hate the game?

 

[Harry Dresden]

The concept of a trinity makes NO sense at all.

well all i gotta say is.....if Jesus was God.....who the hell was he praying to in the Garden Of Jesamine(sp).... i mean WHOM does the most powerful being in existance....pray too?.....no Catholic has ever been able to answer this without dancing around the question.......

 

[Harry Dresden]

OK, if that is true, then you should not have a hard time telling us just how the doctrine of the trinity changes anything (makes a difference) about salvation, God's Creation, His plan for eternity, the return of Christ, Heaven and Hell, and the Christian life.

I would just like to see these anyway. I personmally am not sure that having the doctrine of trinity or not changes anything about what the Bible says about anything. No one understands the trinity enough to explain it anyway.

Just a thought though:

Jesus used the words, "I am He," when a question about his being God, or the Father.

He did not say that.. He said He is IN me and I am in him, and He is in you.

ALL of the answers are in the good book- the book of John...

Jesus said:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g]

3:31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]

4:21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

5:7Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

6"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41"I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[d]?

45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

John 6:10Jesus said, "Have the people sit down." There was plenty of grass in that place, and the men sat down, about five thousand of them. 11Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

6:15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

6Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

7:6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.
17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"


28Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29but I know him because I am from him and he sent me."

33Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. 34You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

38Whoever believes in me, as[c] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 18:37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

8:3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
9Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

25"Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.

9:3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

10:7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep

1"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Now on to the oneness- or lack thereof- The oneness is just in reference to them both working towards the same resolution.. That God's flocks will work for God..

4When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it."

21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

28And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. "The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you." 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him.
33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied

John 12: 7"Leave her alone," Jesus replied. " It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me."


23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

0Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

42Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

John 13:12 "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 14 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com Must be read THOROUGHLY to truly understand that no trinity exists!

John 14:9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.7Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

(Holy Spirit= Followers of Jesus, ONLY- As opposed to false teachers.. )

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 15:1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

See- Unity is not trinity- Unity is just standing UNITED for a singular cause..

10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love


15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

The following passage can be difficult to discern..


John 16:7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

However- This is what Jesus said all along, that God is in charge of making the judgments.. But that those who do not believe will make worldly judgments.. He is talking about the world of sin, not the world of righteousness.. The world of sin will be convicted by the "holy" spirit of those who still maintain the word- the truth. The bible never errs in remaining constant in this. Read further to see-

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Proof:
25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

17:1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Clearly, God made Jesus when he made the Heavens.. That is common sense.

6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Case closed.

and of course none of the original text was...."slightly" changed by religious zealots over the years....to fit their agenda....right?......

 

[JD_2B]

Oneness is not a divine sharing of an entity, but the divine sharing of a common cause, something that Jesus wished upon all of us to have. We, the children of God, can be ONE with God, just like Jesus was ONE with God. Being one with God or each other does not make us suddenly become God or each other. It makes us united in God-like justice, love, and reform.

What about 'I and the Father are one?'

Same as "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc".. Jesus makes several references to oneness that include all of the people uniting together as one.

It is not a literal term meaning "We are one and the same entity" - it simply means they are united. There is also talk of the bridegroom and such. It is like a marriage. God's son is married to God's plan. We should also be "one" with God, just like Jesus.

WWJD? Be one. And tell us to be one with each other, and with God, as well. That is not telling us to become each other, or to manifest ourselves into becoming God. Its a unity thing.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The concept of a trinity makes NO sense at all.

well all i gotta say is.....if Jesus was God.....who the hell was he praying to in the Garden Of Jesamine(sp).... i mean WHOM does the most powerful being in existance....pray too?.....no Catholic has ever been able to answer this without dancing around the question.......

The reason Catholics can't answer those questions? Simple.......Catholicism is a pagan bastardization of Christianity.

Why else are eggs and rabbits (fertility symbols) showcased during the Spring Solstice (a pagan holiday), when it's supposed to be about the resurrection of Yeshua?

Incidentally.........last year, Easter came before Passover. Now, if Yeshua was in Jerusalem to celebrate Passover before He was crucified, how can we celebrate His resurrection when He hasn't even shown up for Passover?

Kind of a quandry, eh?

 

[JD_2B]

and of course none of the original text was...."slightly" changed by religious zealots over the years....to fit their agenda....right?......

I have no doubt that some of the words are changed, not for the purpose of radically changing the general concepts, but just because that is how these professed scholars perceive things to be.

The English Language currently has more words in it than any other language on Earth. 800,000, approximately.

There must be a dozen or so ways to describe pregnancy or the state of being pregnant, if you count "slang words", even.. for instance:

Pregnant
expecting
gestating
knocked up
bun in the oven
Fertilized egg
a sparkle in his daddy's eye
zygote
embryo
fetus
carrying
preggers
two lines showing
showing (as in the belly area is visible)
morning sickness
baby.. bump

Some of these terms can mean other things, too-
"a sparkle in his daddy's eye" can mean that the person has not YET been conceived.. or is only being thought about, planned,etc..
"carrying" can mean anything, besides pregnancy
"two lines showing" could refer to the yellow lines in the street, or anything else
"bump" could indicate that the person has an injury, or be used as an action verb
"showing" can mean real estate, or a child showing off.. or anything else..

Is it possible that some of these written English words are just being "understood" too literally by certain teachers of Christianity?

For instance.. The word that was used to name God was actually removed and replaced with the generic "God", just to help people understand that God is not Jesus. This backfired.

This was going on back in Jesus' time anyways. Believers believe his word, and non believers dont. Thats just how it is. Jesus understands this. It's not a good thing, but it is also not to be seen as some abnormal or "new" development in Christian belief.

ONE can mean:

Numerical 1
Together as one
The best #1
One and the same
United as one
One group or party
etc..

I am just trying to illustrate a point here, that I believe is often overlooked. Much of the dogma related to a belief in a trinity is based on fictitious lies based on nothing more than bad teachings, and equally poor understandings of linguistics.

 

[Care4all]

Oneness is not a divine sharing of an entity, but the divine sharing of a common cause, something that Jesus wished upon all of us to have. We, the children of God, can be ONE with God, just like Jesus was ONE with God. Being one with God or each other does not make us suddenly become God or each other. It makes us united in God-like justice, love, and reform.

What about 'I and the Father are one?'

Same as "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc".. Jesus makes several references to oneness that include all of the people uniting together as one.

It is not a literal term meaning "We are one and the same entity" - it simply means they are united. There is also talk of the bridegroom and such. It is like a marriage. God's son is married to God's plan. We should also be "one" with God, just like Jesus.

WWJD? Be one. And tell us to be one with each other, and with God, as well. That is not telling us to become each other, or to manifest ourselves into becoming God. Its a unity thing.

hey jd!

i don't think it is the same as: "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc"

the reason it is not the same is because never ever was it said that we are in God...only God is in us..... where it is said, ''Jesus is in God...'', to me, leads to him being an entity of God, a manifestation of God made flesh.

I and the Father are ONE.... not the father is in me...BUT ARE ONE....

I thoroughly understand how this is all too hard to accept and your way of thought is certainly an easier path to take, one that seems as though it has more sense to it as well...and other smart people, highly religious people such as issac newton, agree with you on this....

but for me, there are many, many, many parts of the Bible on this topic that just doesn't fit your way of viewing it in my opinion, as well.

we have had a very lengthy thread on this where i have gone in to much further detail than here on it at: http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/56635-the-trinity.html

 

[Terral]

Hi Hawk:

Terral, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously with that ridiculous signature?

I do not expect anyone here confused to 'heed' a single word of my testimony (#1-10). Acts 13:41.

GL,

Terral

 

[ABikerSailor]

What about 'I and the Father are one?'

Same as "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc".. Jesus makes several references to oneness that include all of the people uniting together as one.

It is not a literal term meaning "We are one and the same entity" - it simply means they are united. There is also talk of the bridegroom and such. It is like a marriage. God's son is married to God's plan. We should also be "one" with God, just like Jesus.

WWJD? Be one. And tell us to be one with each other, and with God, as well. That is not telling us to become each other, or to manifest ourselves into becoming God. Its a unity thing.

hey jd!

i don't think it is the same as: "He is in me, and I am in him, and he is in you, etc etc etc"

the reason it is not the same is because never ever was it said that we are in God...only God is in us..... where it is said, ''Jesus is in God...'', to me, leads to him being an entity of God, a manifestation of God made flesh.

I and the Father are ONE.... not the father is in me...BUT ARE ONE....

I thoroughly understand how this is all too hard to accept and your way of thought is certainly an easier path to take, one that seems as though it has more sense to it as well...and other smart people, highly religious people such as issac newton, agree with you on this....

but for me, there are many, many, many parts of the Bible on this topic that just doesn't fit your way of viewing it in my opinion, as well.

we have had a very lengthy thread on this where i have gone in to much further detail than here on it at: http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/56635-the-trinity.html

If Yeshua (Jesus) IS God, then please answer this one question that continually bugs me..........

When Yeshua was asked when He would return, He stated "nobody knows the hour or the day when I will return, that is known only to The Father".

So........if Yeshua is God, then why didn't He know when He would return?