Jerusalem Corpus Separatum

[Shusha]

Of the 3 major "western" religions, only Christianity is a religion of peace. Islam and Judaism are both fundamentally religions of conquest and conflict with those that do not adhere to said religions. Admittedly we Christians often do not practice what Jesus preached.

On the contrary, Judaism is the only of of the three which does not require adherence in order to be in G-d's good graces as it were.

 

[Coyote]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

Hamas, in any aspects, is worse than ISIS. At least ISIS is honest and direct about their goal. Hamas is hiding behind being a "freedom fighting" organization, when in fact all it brings is death to both Jews and Palestinians.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, no argument there but they are not worse - not even close.

For me, I don't think that classifying Hamas as a 'moderate' terrorist organisation is helpful...

Terrorism is terrorism!

ISIS is more than terrorism though. And what they've done far exceeds anything in recent times imo. It's kind of like saying murder is murder, and putting Charles Manson in the same category as the guy down the street that killed his wife. It's all murder, it's all wrong but there are degrees.

 

[Shusha]

Oh please...

Restricted is restricted...

And, oh please, let's hope that "safety issue" is not hijacked for the sole use of zionists in the same way as "Semitic" has been hijacked for the sole use of zionists!

If people are restricted then it is NOT open to all...

Give me a break. As IF "there are too many people here for safety" is equivalent to "you can't pray here because this place is ours now and you are traitors to G-d and this molotov will back me up on that".

Sheesh. Be better than that.

 

[Shusha]

It's kind of like saying murder is murder, and putting Charles Manson in the same category as the guy down the street that killed his wife. It's all murder, it's all wrong but there are degrees.

Why would you put Charles Manson in a different category than the guy who killed his wife? Is the ideology the same or different? Or is it just scope?

 

[Coyote]

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

You're kidding, right?

What are we looking at and where are the links?

That's the burning of Joseph's tomb, the even that was hardly published in any of the world's media.

Grafitti on mosques is a crime, but burning a synagogue is not worthy of much as a little title, now, eh.

And they keep on saying Islam respects "all prophets".

Does torching a mosque count? A church? Or...is that "grafitti" in your book?

West Bank mosque torched, Jewish extremists suspected

West Bank mosque attack blamed on radical Israeli settlers - CNN.com

ISRAELI EXTREMISTS TORCH CHURCH, MOSQUE AND VANDALIZE PALESTINIAN SCHOOL – Miraj News Agency

Radical Jewish group’s head advocates burning churches

So much for respecting other religions...


From the last article I linked: Gopshtain responded to reports that he advocated burning churches by saying, “The law is straightforward, Maimonides’ interpretation is that one must burn idolatry. There’s not a single rabbi that would deliberate that fact. I expect the government of Israel to carry that out.”

That is no different than the words of Islamic extremists who tear down ancient religious artifacts, because they are "idolatry". Crazy people.

Judaism never called itself "religion of peace" like Islam does while burning our synagogues.

Of course burning mosques and churches is unacceptable.

But my point was, you've never heard of the incident of Joseph's tomb until now. right?

Because the media doesn't tell you about this, because when they do it to us it's not newsworthy.

If it was a price tag thing they would have gone to our throats.

You're a clever one, you know what I'm getting at.

But they do - I just went and googled it, like I googled the above examples (I was not particularly familiar with them either but the media had reported it).

Palestinians Burn Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus as the Situation in Israel Deteriorates 

Joseph's Tomb site set ablze in West Bank - CNN.com

Palestinians Set Fire to Joseph's Tomb Amid Calls for 'Day of Rage'

I see no difference here.

 

[Coyote]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

I wasn't comparing them to ISIS. You said that certain governments had done "very little damage". I consider the burning of one of the most holy sites in Judaism to be quite considerable amount of damage. And that pales in comparison to destroying precious archeological records by the truckload.

And out of curiosity, is "war" an excuse to destroy holy places? In your opinion?

It's not an excuse but you yourself made distinctions between events that occur in conditions of war and peacetime.

While the examples you gave are tragic - how do they compare with the extent of damage and routine destruction/looting done by ISIS or the Talibon?

 

[Coyote]

It's kind of like saying murder is murder, and putting Charles Manson in the same category as the guy down the street that killed his wife. It's all murder, it's all wrong but there are degrees.

Why would you put Charles Manson in a different category than the guy who killed his wife? Is the ideology the same or different? Or is it just scope?

The ideology is different, but for me - it's scope. It's what makes the difference between a criminal that can never be let loose in society again and someone who might be rehabilitated. Some who enjoys killing and someone who may have lost control.

 

[Coyote]

Of the 3 major "western" religions, only Christianity is a religion of peace. Islam and Judaism are both fundamentally religions of conquest and conflict with those that do not adhere to said religions. Admittedly we Christians often do not practice what Jesus preached.

None of them are truly religions of peace... but all have peaceful attributes. People choose to ignore that in Islam.

 

[Shusha]

It's kind of like saying murder is murder, and putting Charles Manson in the same category as the guy down the street that killed his wife. It's all murder, it's all wrong but there are degrees.

Why would you put Charles Manson in a different category than the guy who killed his wife? Is the ideology the same or different? Or is it just scope?

The ideology is different, but for me - it's scope. It's what makes the difference between a criminal that can never be let loose in society again and someone who might be rehabilitated. Some who enjoys killing and someone who may have lost control.

Ah. From my perspective as a self-defence instructor who specializes in teaching women and girls about abusive relationships -- I utterly reject the "lost control" argument from people who kill their spouses. My research supports this. Abusive people (of the sorts that kill their spouses) are not able to be rehabilitated with the knowledge and methods we currently use. So to me the ideology between Charles Manson and the abusive spouse is fairly similar.

But I agree with you about the scope.

 

[Shusha]

Of the 3 major "western" religions, only Christianity is a religion of peace. Islam and Judaism are both fundamentally religions of conquest and conflict with those that do not adhere to said religions. Admittedly we Christians often do not practice what Jesus preached.

None of them are truly religions of peace... but all have peaceful attributes. People choose to ignore that in Islam.

Interesting. What is a religion of peace? How would one define that? What qualities would it possess? How would you be able to recognize that it was peaceful?

One of my criteria would certainly be that there is an acceptance of other paths to G-d and no need to convert anyone.

 

[Coyote]

Of the 3 major "western" religions, only Christianity is a religion of peace. Islam and Judaism are both fundamentally religions of conquest and conflict with those that do not adhere to said religions. Admittedly we Christians often do not practice what Jesus preached.

None of them are truly religions of peace... but all have peaceful attributes. People choose to ignore that in Islam.

Interesting. What is a religion of peace? How would one define that? What qualities would it possess? How would you be able to recognize that it was peaceful?

One of my criteria would certainly be that there is an acceptance of other paths to G-d and no need to convert anyone.

I never really thought "what is a religion of peace" - just that, many seem to have an ability to go both ways, and they do.

I suppose it would be - imo:
an acceptance of many paths to God
tolerance of others
respect for all life
Opposition to war or violent solutions

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

The Arab-Israeli Conflict over the past decade is an intentional ly aggravated Low intensity conflict (LIC) with the use of hostile activity and military forces applied selectively and with restraint in two folds:

• To enforce compliance with the security policies and to meet the objectives of the political body controlling the military force.

• To insure the continuation of the conflict so that in the chaos of funding, donor funding can be pillaged and plundered to reward antagonist inciting continued violence.
​

It's not an excuse but you yourself made distinctions between events that occur in conditions of war and peacetime.

While the examples you gave are tragic - how do they compare with the extent of damage and routine destruction/looting done by ISIS or the Taliban?

(COMMENT)

Realistically you cannot compare either view or vision over the conflict from the standpoint of either party to the conflict. As the RAND CORP points out, a two-state solution sets the future conditions for the best economic outcomes for both Israelis and Palestinians.

• Israelis would gain over two times more than the Palestinians in absolute terms — $123 billion versus $50 billion over ten years.

• But the Palestinians would gain more proportionately and per capita, with average income gradually advanced by more than 36% over what it would have been in 2024. Whereas the Israeli average would increase 5%-to-7% over the same period.
​

In contrast, the DAESH and Afghan evaluations have entirely different conflict drivers and motivating factors that appear to be prime movers behind the continuation. They look like religious extremists but are not. While there may be an element of radicalism and cult like activity, those are not the cause. The principle actuators are the warlord complex and political power; each amplified by the opportunity to make vast sums of money; DAESH with an $80 million a year budget and the Taliban raising revenue from the protection game and drug trade.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Of the 3 major "western" religions, only Christianity is a religion of peace. Islam and Judaism are both fundamentally religions of conquest and conflict with those that do not adhere to said religions. Admittedly we Christians often do not practice what Jesus preached.

None of them are truly religions of peace... but all have peaceful attributes. People choose to ignore that in Islam.

Interesting. What is a religion of peace? How would one define that? What qualities would it possess? How would you be able to recognize that it was peaceful?

One of my criteria would certainly be that there is an acceptance of other paths to G-d and no need to convert anyone.

I never really thought "what is a religion of peace" - just that, many seem to have an ability to go both ways, and they do.

I suppose it would be - imo:
an acceptance of many paths to God
tolerance of others
respect for all life
Opposition to war or violent solutions

I know, right? We toss around these words but don't really give a lot of thought as to what we mean by them.

 

[Humanity]

Pfft, you miss the point....

But you are absolutely right, Israel would never let go of their unrecognised, occupied 'capital'.

But you understand WHY, yes?

Well, I have my views as to why yes...

I am guessing you are talking about 'security'? Well, with an international 'body' taking sole responsibility for Jerusalem and the security within, I don't think that is an issue... Maybe a 'perceived' issue for Israelis AND Palestinians alike, but, until there is some kind of action taken over Jerusalem there will never be peace.

It's not only security. Jerusalem represents the deepest emotions within every Jewish heart. Even secular Israelis who spend Shabbat on the beach instinctively know that an Israel without Jerusalem is like a body without a soul. A rebuilt Jerusalem is mentioned in daily prayers, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the subject of 4 out of the 6 annual fast days in the Jewish calendar. A glass is broken at every Jewish wedding in memory of 70 CE, and pictures of Jerusalem adorn every Jewish home. Like it says in the Bible, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember not Jerusalem above my greatest joy!"

Maybe as a Gentile, Humanity, you can't understand our connection to Jerusalem, but what's funny about it?

Maybe as a Jew you can't understand the connection of Muslims and Christians to Jerusalem?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Pfft, you miss the point....

But you are absolutely right, Israel would never let go of their unrecognised, occupied 'capital'.

But you understand WHY, yes?

Well, I have my views as to why yes...

I am guessing you are talking about 'security'? Well, with an international 'body' taking sole responsibility for Jerusalem and the security within, I don't think that is an issue... Maybe a 'perceived' issue for Israelis AND Palestinians alike, but, until there is some kind of action taken over Jerusalem there will never be peace.

It's not only security. Jerusalem represents the deepest emotions within every Jewish heart. Even secular Israelis who spend Shabbat on the beach instinctively know that an Israel without Jerusalem is like a body without a soul. A rebuilt Jerusalem is mentioned in daily prayers, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the subject of 4 out of the 6 annual fast days in the Jewish calendar. A glass is broken at every Jewish wedding in memory of 70 CE, and pictures of Jerusalem adorn every Jewish home. Like it says in the Bible, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember not Jerusalem above my greatest joy!"

Maybe as a Gentile, Humanity, you can't understand our connection to Jerusalem, but what's funny about it?

Maybe as a Jew you can't understand the connection of Muslims and Christians to Jerusalem?

They are still less than the Jewish connection. How about the customs and rituals in my post (and I didn't include all of them)? Do Muslims or Christians have those?

 

[Humanity]

They are still less than the Jewish connection

And that's the problem with you zionuts...

Always 'better' than everyone else!

Until the ZIONISTS change their attitude there will NEVER be peace... End of story...

You can try and 'blame' everyone else, trouble is, everyone else knows where the problem lies....

 

[ForeverYoung436]

They are still less than the Jewish connection

And that's the problem with you zionuts...

Always 'better' than everyone else!

Until the ZIONISTS change their attitude there will NEVER be peace... End of story...

You can try and 'blame' everyone else, trouble is, everyone else knows where the problem lies....

I didn't say that I'm better than you, that I was part of the Chosen People, or something like that. I simply said that Jerusalem means more to us as a city, like Mecca for the Muslims, the Vatican for the Catholics or the Ganges River for the Hindus. It seems to me that you have an inferiority complex.

 

[Humanity]

They are still less than the Jewish connection

And that's the problem with you zionuts...

Always 'better' than everyone else!

Until the ZIONISTS change their attitude there will NEVER be peace... End of story...

You can try and 'blame' everyone else, trouble is, everyone else knows where the problem lies....

I didn't say that I'm better than you, that I was part of the Chosen People, or something like that. I simply said that Jerusalem means more to us as a city, like Mecca for the Muslims, the Vatican for the Catholics or the Ganges River for the Hindus. It seems to me that you have an inferiority complex.

You didn't have to say it... Implying it is enough to show that your superiority complex is getting the better of you!

Fortunately, I am neither Jew, Christian nor Muslim...

However, I was born Christian and have been taught that Jerusalem is a holy city, which I still believe...

But by god it is NOT it is NOT exclusively Jewish and the Jews do NOT have any more right to rule/control it than any other religion!

 

[Coyote]

They are still less than the Jewish connection

And that's the problem with you zionuts...

Always 'better' than everyone else!

Until the ZIONISTS change their attitude there will NEVER be peace... End of story...

You can try and 'blame' everyone else, trouble is, everyone else knows where the problem lies....

I don't think it's that Humanity. I'm not particularly religious. It's hard hard for me to really understand these kind of connections, it's not part of my background. But I do think it's important to note that for Jews, it is The Most Important holy site. For Muslims, it's the third and I am not sure where it is for Christians.

Because it is so important to 3 faiths, access must be preserved for all of them, as well as respect and tolerance. But I've given a lot of thought to this, and to what ForeverYoung said - which was very well said and non-controversial, as well as what others have said. Jeruselum is interwoven in every part of Judaism - ritual, song, prayers - and that is nothing new. It is less so in Christianity and Islam. I think it needs to be recognized that the Judaic ties to Jeruselum are deeper than those of Islam, where it's tertiary, and Christianity. That's not being "better than" or "blaming" or anything - it's simply acknowledging the validity of that religion. Would you be saying the same to a Muslim, discussing that religion's ties to Mecca?

 

[Humanity]

They are still less than the Jewish connection

And that's the problem with you zionuts...

Always 'better' than everyone else!

Until the ZIONISTS change their attitude there will NEVER be peace... End of story...

You can try and 'blame' everyone else, trouble is, everyone else knows where the problem lies....

I don't think it's that Humanity. I'm not particularly religious. It's hard hard for me to really understand these kind of connections, it's not part of my background. But I do think it's important to note that for Jews, it is The Most Important holy site. For Muslims, it's the third and I am not sure where it is for Christians.

Because it is so important to 3 faiths, access must be preserved for all of them, as well as respect and tolerance. But I've given a lot of thought to this, and to what ForeverYoung said - which was very well said and non-controversial, as well as what others have said. Jeruselum is interwoven in every part of Judaism - ritual, song, prayers - and that is nothing new. It is less so in Christianity and Islam. I think it needs to be recognized that the Judaic ties to Jeruselum are deeper than those of Islam, where it's tertiary, and Christianity. That's not being "better than" or "blaming" or anything - it's simply acknowledging the validity of that religion. Would you be saying the same to a Muslim, discussing that religion's ties to Mecca?

I agree with you...

It's impossible for Jews, Muslims, Christians to declare 'exclusivity' to Jerusalem... Therein lies the problem!

Discussing Mecca is a bit of 'red herring'... How many other religions, other than Islam, makes any sort of claim to Mecca?